Most recently inspired by this thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/blackbirds-rpg/), but this topic has been stewing in my head for a while.
Let me say at the outset that I understand genre distinctions can be fuzzy, especially sub-sub-genre distinctions like this one, and I know a lot of people find them pointless. I still consider them worthwhile, because when you're looking for something specific, it helps to have a name to put on it. To paraphrase the YouTuber "Perg Productions": If you tell me a band plays "rock", I have no idea what that means, but if you tell me they play "technical death metal", I now have a pretty clear expectation of what they're going to sound like.
In a previous thread, Eric Diaz linked to this (quite good) blog post: https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/03/my-weird-dark-twisted-fantasy.html
I can't stress enough that this post is NOT a shot at Eric, but that post uses the common definition of "dark fantasy" as the combination of fantasy and horror. That definition has never sat well with me. All of the "dark fantasy" properties which I Iove definitely include an element of horror, but it's often fairly minor, and it's a very specific kind of horror. Eric reconciles this in his blog by expanding the definition of horror to include tragedy as well. A good start, but it doesn't reconcile the issue for me.
There's a semi famous quote from Demon's Souls/Dark Souls director Hidetaka Miyazaki, where he talks about maintaining "a certain level of refinement and elegance" in the design of his games. And that, I think, is getting at the core of what separates "dark fantasy" from just "horror fantasy ". When I think about what I would consider to be iconic examples of "dark fantasy", such as Elric, Berserk, or Dark Souls, they aren't overly grotesque, nor are they relentlessly miserable. The mood is if anything more melancholy than horrific, and the moments of grimness are balanced by moments of bombast and grand mysteries. They also tend to be fairly self-serious. Not without their moments of levity, but veering away from parody or meta-humor.
So that's my definition. "Dark fantasy" takes elements of horror, and infuses them with the scale and scope of "epic fantasy", often with themes of tragedy, entropy or collapse. It largely eschews irony, gross-out and shock value, in favor of a greater focus on mystery, spectacle and splendor. Even the horrific elements of "dark fantasy" often (though not always) have an element of grandeur or beauty to them. The horrific elements aim to attract, rather than repulse. It's that balance of tone which separates it from both "horror fantasy" and "epic fantasy", and the straightfaced-ness which separates it from "weird fantasy". Though arguably, it's a hybrid of all of the above. "Dark fantasy" is not about zombie plagues, serial killers, or politics (though it may include those things). It's more about strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms.
Since this is more about tone, and tone is difficult to put into words, let me give some examples from various media:
A short virtual tour of the world of Dark Souls 3:
The album art for Stormkeep's "Galdrum" EP
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2bZykwq/galdrum-5fd41d3b416ea.jpg)
A splash page from Berserk:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zv6t0h6m/Berserk-v10c05p114.jpg)
The cover art for the "GODS" RPG project, by Bastien LeCouffe Deharme
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QVSSdzV/bastien-lecouffe-deharme-core-rulebook-cover-art-preview.jpg)
Art from the boardgame "Kingdom Death"
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJjcF9SV/XLRssZ2.jpg)
To bring this back to tabletop games, I don't think I've yet played or read a game that really nails this tone. Old-school D&D is too mundane (and often too gonzo), and new school D&D is too safe and cheerful. I'll concede you could probably homebrew any fantasy game to try and accommodate it, but I can't say I've seen anyone get it right "out of the box". There are a few possible reasons why:
The most obvious reason might be a lack of demand. The fantasy RPG market seems to be divided into two broad groups. Those that want their light-hearted, quippy marvel/anime style modern fantasy, and those that want either weird fantasy or pulp sword-and-sorcery style. This is a little odd, though, as in other mediums (comics, videogames, books, and visual art) dark fantasy is absolutely booming.
Another issue might be that tabletop games traditionally struggle with doing the more epic side of fantasy, without falling into the trap of becoming superhero games. This may be why games set in dark fantasy settings such as WFRP or Black Void tend to focus the action on more street-level or political conflicts. The concrete numerical nature of tabletop games makes it hard to have characters that can travel the cosmos and credibly square off with a demon king, but also won't just run roughshod over the rest of the setting. There was a game I was checking out called "Demongate" that seemed to get the tone right, but I watched some actual play and the PCs seemed to be ridiculously overpowered.
The "dark fantasy" tone also requires that it be played straight, and ttrpg games have a tendency to rapidly trend towards silliness. Partially, this is just an obvious side effect of sitting at a table with your friends to play a game. Partially, I think it's just too hard to maintain a dark or serious tone over the length of a proper tabletop campaign. Drama, like horror, tends to work better in shorter-form mediums.
Anybody else like or engage with this kind of fantasy, or can you recommend tabletop games that set out to do it and make it work?
Ehhh. I'm in a several months old Shadow of the Demon Lord campaign, and so far it's been pretty good. It does have a bit too much humor baked in to some parts (my goblin rolled "flatulence" as a personality quirk during character creation). But, overall, it's been pretty good about the balance between despair and defiance of evil. I actually think the hardest part about "dark" fantasy is not the game system; it's the players. If players are looking for the right tone, you can get a good horror/dark fantasy vibe from just about anything, from Deadlands to Beyond the Supernatural to SotDL. It's really a function of whether the players react to the setting and situation in a genre-appropriate manner, or whether they fight the conceits of the setting or adventure. It doesn't matter what system you use if your players can't (or won't) act, think, or behave appropriate for the genre...
Berserk and Dark Souls not being relentlessly miserable? I guess in the sense that not literally every milisecond is filled with agony.
I know less details of Berserk, but I consider it pretty miserable.
Dark Souls mocks the very nature of existence. Death is coming, it will not be quiet, or pretty, or elegant. It will be painful agonizing and sorrowful. Then on top of that any attempts to avoid death will be met with just more horror and any and all sources of justice or kindness are either fraud or failures. Nothing lasts, but misery and horror will last longer.
Dark Souls is one of the most cruel fictional universes I know of. It makes up new rules to be cruel in new ways. The Universe implodes into a cacaphony of eternal suffering before at the same time burning out into double nothingness.
Edit: I guess Dark Fantasy is defined by pretty images and intense misanthropy, nihilism and sadism.
>>"Dark fantasy" is not about zombie plagues, serial killers, or politics (though it may include those things). It's more about strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms.<<
This makes me think Skyrim (and Oblivion) is Dark Fantasy?
The re-release of Dragon Warriors RPG was Dark Fantasy, where the original game was just regular British Fantasy like '80s Warhammer Battle. I think the American audience sees British stuff as inherently dark. I never thought of eg Elric as Dark Fantasy until now.
I guess a defining aspect of Dark Fantasy seems to be something like: Everybody goes to hell when they die.
God exists and he explicitely HATES you. Good people and goodness exist as a small insignificant candle to make a warehouse of horrific shadows more visible.
Id argue you can have a Dark fantasy world with the grotesque, and also lacking bueuty but a core premise has to be the rejection of a just world, and often the rejection of even a just death.
Karl Edward Wagner coined the term dark fantasy and his Kane books aren't really horror. They are like nihilistic Swords & Sorcery.
Where's the line between Dark Fantasy and Horror Fantasy?
What is Ravenloft? Or Warhammer Fantasy?
the problems it presents for tabletop
Dark fantasy doesn't have to have horror. There's nothing that commands such. Dark fantasy falls in a wide spectrum of mature fantasy, experimental, etc. It's that simple. As long as players know what they're getting into it doesn't present a problem at all.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2023, 06:03:52 PM
Berserk and Dark Souls not being relentlessly miserable? I guess in the sense that not literally every milisecond is filled with agony.
I know less details of Berserk, but I consider it pretty miserable.
Dark Souls mocks the very nature of existence. Death is coming, it will not be quiet, or pretty, or elegant. It will be painful agonizing and sorrowful. Then on top of that any attempts to avoid death will be met with just more horror and any and all sources of justice or kindness are either fraud or failures. Nothing lasts, but misery and horror will last longer.
Dark Souls is one of the most cruel fictional universes I know of. It makes up new rules to be cruel in new ways. The Universe implodes into a cacaphony of eternal suffering before at the same time burning out into double nothingness.
Re: Dark Souls, I suppose that's a question of interpretation. I've always read the central theme of those games as being the importance of finding meaning in a meaningless universe. Admittedly, that's more true of the first two games than of the third one, which does double down on the futility of the cycles of existence (though it still ends with the possibility of something new). I suppose I was more thinking of the experience of playing them, which is peppered with little victories and moments of peace throughout.
Berserk I think is actually more upbeat than people tend to remember it as. The Black Swordsman and Conviction arcs are super bleak, but not only is Puck present throughout to lighten the mood, but the Golden Age arc is more mixed, and the Millennium Falcon and Fantasia arcs are mostly about Guts reclaiming his humanity and rebuilding his little surrogate family.
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2023, 06:37:13 PM
>>"Dark fantasy" is not about zombie plagues, serial killers, or politics (though it may include those things). It's more about strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms.<<
This makes me think Skyrim (and Oblivion) is Dark Fantasy?
Possibly? There's certainly a Moorcockian flavor to the Daedric princes, and some of the aesthetics match up.
Quote from: S'mon on July 08, 2023, 06:37:13 PM
The re-release of Dragon Warriors RPG was Dark Fantasy, where the original game was just regular British Fantasy like '80s Warhammer Battle. I think the American audience sees British stuff as inherently dark. I never thought of eg Elric as Dark Fantasy until now.
On the flip side, it would never occur to me to apply the Dark Fantasy label to Dragon Warriors. I guess I can see it, since it incorporates some horror elements, but I would call it "folk horror". Again, it's a question of interpretation, but I read the horror elements in DW as being more in the vein of traditional ghost stories than what I associate with "dark fantasy".
the difficulty of classifying the Elric stories is a major part of why I care about this topic to begin with. I've toyed with instead using the term "cosmic fantasy". i.e., fantasy which incorporates sci-fi-esque ideas like deep time, cosmic entities, multiple dimensions, and space/time travel, while not
quite crossing over into being science fiction. That might be the better term, as it would fold in both Berserk and arguably the Souls games (particularly Demon's Souls and Bloodborne), as well as things like Planescape and Lovecraft's Dream Cycle. It would also reconcile the fact that my previous definition of Dark Fantasy explicitly excludes certain examples which others consider squarely in the genre (such as A Song of Ice and Fire).
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 08, 2023, 10:22:18 PM
Where's the line between Dark Fantasy and Horror Fantasy?
What is Ravenloft? Or Warhammer Fantasy?
The way I was proposing it, the distinction would be in the scale, and the emotion intended to be invoked by the darker elements. Put in basest terms, horror fantasy is intended to be scary, and dark fantasy is intended to be impressive. Of course it's a fuzzy distinction, and more of a sliding scale than a binary, but I think people know it when they see it.
Ravenloft I would put in the Horror Fantasy basket, possibly in the sub-sub-subgenre of "gothic horror fantasy". Warhammer kind of rides the line. The setting definitely includes the kind of grand cosmic elements I associate with Dark Fantasy, but the day-to-day of the RPG has more of a horror flavor to me. Maybe I'd say the wargame is more Dark Fantasy and the RPG more Horror Fantasy?
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 08, 2023, 06:58:53 PM
nihilistic
This is what defines Dark Fantasy. Life is meaningless and there is no hope.
"strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms" are just the Gonzo dial cranked up higher for the setting.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 08, 2023, 05:30:18 PM
Ehhh. I'm in a several months old Shadow of the Demon Lord campaign, and so far it's been pretty good. It does have a bit too much humor baked in to some parts (my goblin rolled "flatulence" as a personality quirk during character creation). But, overall, it's been pretty good about the balance between despair and defiance of evil. I actually think the hardest part about "dark" fantasy is not the game system; it's the players. If players are looking for the right tone, you can get a good horror/dark fantasy vibe from just about anything, from Deadlands to Beyond the Supernatural to SotDL. It's really a function of whether the players react to the setting and situation in a genre-appropriate manner, or whether they fight the conceits of the setting or adventure. It doesn't matter what system you use if your players can't (or won't) act, think, or behave appropriate for the genre...
Yeah, SOTDL has always been too silly to be what I'm looking for in Dark Fantasy. I agree with you that player buy-in would be essential to the tone, but I think that player buy-in is much easier to obtain if a game presents itself the right way.
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 08, 2023, 06:58:53 PM
Karl Edward Wagner coined the term dark fantasy and his Kane books aren't really horror. They are like nihilistic Swords & Sorcery.
I did really want to include the Kane books in the way I think about the genre, as they are famously important examples. Sadly, I still haven't been able to find copies of them.
Quote from: Melichor on July 08, 2023, 11:42:21 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 08, 2023, 06:58:53 PM
nihilistic
This is what defines Dark Fantasy. Life is meaningless and there is no hope.
"strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms" are just the Gonzo dial cranked up higher for the setting.
I've always understood Gonzo as being defined by level of ironic self-parody. It's self-consciously goofy, which is not what I think of with Dark Fantasy
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 08, 2023, 04:17:29 PM
Let me say at the outset that I understand genre distinctions can be fuzzy, especially sub-sub-genre distinctions like this one, and I know a lot of people find them pointless. I still consider them worthwhile, because when you're looking for something specific, it helps to have a name to put on it. To paraphrase the YouTuber "Perg Productions": If you tell me a band plays "rock", I have no idea what that means, but if you tell me they play "technical death metal", I now have a pretty clear expectation of what they're going to sound like.
Yeah, but I feel like that gets used more often to dismiss something. I'll listen to almost any genre of music, but as a rule I hate 99% of every genre. I only like the stuff that strikes me as especially fresh, original, inspirational, or in some way impressive. And so when I find a band I like and see someone label it Power Metal, I can't help but think that's a monumentally clueless label applied by a potentially dishonest individual and completely misses entirely what makes the band special and why you might want to give them a listen.
In RPGs, "standard fantasy," "high fantasy," "low fantasy," all seem to be terms relative to some weirdo's D&D campaign that looks nothing like my D&D campaign and I rarely find these useful points of references.
To wit:
QuoteTo bring this back to tabletop games, I don't think I've yet played or read a game that really nails this tone. Old-school D&D is too mundane (and often too gonzo), and new school D&D is too safe and cheerful. I'll concede you could probably homebrew any fantasy game to try and accommodate it, but I can't say I've seen anyone get it right "out of the box". There are a few possible reasons why:
I'd suggest for starters reconsidering old school D&D. Or probably what I should say is Gygaxian D&D, since even "Old-School" is a term that's subject not only to the relativity of some weirdo's idea of D&D, but also relative to some weirdo's idea of what's actually old. Or maybe even a more precise term than Gygaxian D&D might be Gygaxian Fantasy.
Allow me to make the case. I would describe Dangerous Journeys: Mythus as being the logical continuation of AD&D. Like if Gary actually got to be the one to write the 2nd Ed, it would look a lot like DJ. He'd hinted at he was going to go with a percentile skill system. Some of the new classes he leaked in teasers in Dragon Mag appear by the same name in DJ. I think the idea of "reversible" spells was subtly kicked up a notch in DJ. Like Evil Priests could bestow curses and Good Priests could remove them. But Priests of the Ethos of Balance had a spell that you would cast on a cursed individual and it would cause the caster of that curse to themselves become cursed. But what a lot of people don't know is that while Mythus was the only setting published for Dangerous Journeys, it was not the only setting written for DJ. And it wasn't even the first. The original game title was Unhallowed, which was more of a pulp supernatural horror genre. A bit Cthulhu-esque. Perhaps enough so to remind you that Cthulhu mythos was originally included in Deities & Demigods, which was originally envisioned as one of the core set of AD&D books.
And then there's Lejendary Adventure, and with this one, he wasn't going for a continuation at all. It was more like a do-over. And he wanted to get back to simpler rules with fewer moving parts but something that had a strong spirit to the game. And there are hints and notes, most notably in some of the powers characters could use, in some of the monsters, and in some of the modules, that this really is its own unique universe. The power curve was a lot more subdued. And there would be certain oddities that gave the game a darker feel if you actually absorbed those details. One thing I often cite were he boldly returned to older ideas in D&D that were later abandoned was illusions that could hurt you, making it clear and in no uncertain terms that it could cause wounds to spontaneously open "as stigmata do." There's definitely a darkness that runs through the game, and you often find the same roots in pre-1983 D&D.
One place where he didn't return to his roots but rather went in a different direction is, in the Gygaxian Fantasy series, he mentioned he changed his view on, basically what you might call "evil clerics." You could see in Greyhawk you had good gods and evil goods, good clerics and evil clerics. Good gods had good religions and good cleric followers. And Evil had the equal and opposite everything. But he said that in doing research, he couldn't find much historical support for evil religions. Yeah, there were always cults here and there. But they never grew to the same scale, and it seemed the reason for this was because people just would not be dedicated on a large scale to religions aimed at death and disease and their own destruction. And so there wasn't this equal-but-opposite symmetry. Evil cults were often more hidden and secretive. And to me, I think that gives a darker bent to the bad guys. Because they're secretive, they could be anywhere.
QuoteThe "dark fantasy" tone also requires that it be played straight, and ttrpg games have a tendency to rapidly trend towards silliness. Partially, this is just an obvious side effect of sitting at a table with your friends to play a game. Partially, I think it's just too hard to maintain a dark or serious tone over the length of a proper tabletop campaign. Drama, like horror, tends to work better in shorter-form mediums.
I've seen the meme, where players start out acting like it's Lord of the Rings, but then it ends up being Monty Python. I always thought the secret was to flip the script. The #1 reason I see campaigns turn absurd is the players taking their characters waaaaaaaaaaay too seriously. Any time some touchie-feelie asshole talks about how they like point-buy or beginning with a character concept, I roll my eyes and say, here we go again. I think real, complex, sophisticated characters that feel real need to emerge from interactions. I don't think anyone should begin too attached to their character or taking their character too seriously.
This isn't old man with a pile of crust in his undies talking points about how PCs died 3 times walking uphill in the snow. It's simply if, your character is fresh off the press, no matter how much time you put into it, those details only had the benefit of your brain. It's not going to be a fully formed 3-dimensional character even if you think you wrote a 3-dimensional character. And so if you take too seriously to properly roleplaying your character, the play is going to be too stiff and sooner or later it's going to lead to absurd results.
If you do it the other way, start with a character who can laugh and be laughed at, then let him become forged when the shit hits the fan, hopefully into someone who rises to the occasion, that's how you get an awesome character. It's almost like if you decide at the start of the game that you're going to do a silly game, then it might actually become a pretty heavy game you can take seriously. I thought this is how the Futurama series played out, where it was all goofy antics and hijinks, but by the 4th season, the characters had some real depth to them and it started to seem like a legit sci-fi show with jokes rather than a comedy cartoon with a sci-fi theme.
For what it's worth, the first thing that came to my mind when I hear "dark fantasy" is Gremlins. Obviously the mogwai is a fantasy creature. And although it is ostensibly set in the contemporary real world, the town there is itself a fantasy idyllic type of town (this is emphasized more in Gremlins 2 which is set elsewhere). Obviously the movie has some dark moments. But it's also fun and funny and upbeat at times and really a great family movie. So you might also forget just how dark the movie actually is. In case you need that reminder of the dark tone, here's the one part of the movie that always stood out the most to me:
So I think you can have a range of emotions, tones, and feels in dark fantasy. I think that it's actually required to be such to seem real. Real people have all those facets to them. And the real is important because it's not horrific or dark if bad things or corruption happens to a caricature no one can relate to.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 08, 2023, 11:40:37 PMRe: Dark Souls, I suppose that's a question of interpretation. I've always read the central theme of those games as being the importance of finding meaning in a meaningless universe. Admittedly, that's more true of the first two games than of the third one, which does double down on the futility of the cycles of existence (though it still ends with the possibility of something new). I suppose I was more thinking of the experience of playing them, which is peppered with little victories and moments of peace throughout.
I mean "Meaningless" universe would be charitable way to call the dark souls universe.
"Intrinsictly meant to punish all sentient life" seems more accurate.
Find meaning or not, the universe will bring you back to suffer. If you die, it will bring you back again and undo anything that you did. Found meaning? Cool. Now go insane and kill your children. There is NOTHING the DS universe will not defile. Over and over and over as it brings you back even after you tripple died. Whatever you did will be undone.
The pretty imagery is a distraction for how truly vile and sadistic that universe is (to a masturbatory degree). It's grotesque. A calvinball of suffering that will make up new perversions to ruin anything anyone ever did.
That it doesn't even have the mercy to end with everything dead is more the sick joke rather than an ubeat note.
"Yes everybody will suffer eternal hell for no fault of their own, or for crimes only as bad as not wanting to die, but look - pretty gothic architecture!"
QuoteBerserk I think is actually more upbeat than people tend to remember it as. The Black Swordsman and Conviction arcs are super bleak, but not only is Puck present throughout to lighten the mood, but the Golden Age arc is more mixed, and the Millennium Falcon and Fantasia arcs are mostly about Guts reclaiming his humanity and rebuilding his little surrogate family.
Again thats if your the mercy to be the main protagonist. Everybody else gets to go through hell.
Also Im not sure how cannon it is, and if Im even remembering it correctly, but isn't it a universe that punishes you for thoughtcrime? That the evil god is born of human thought for the crime of wanting an explanation for suffering? Again that was a long time ago and I heard the author kinda maybe stepped away from that explanation.
Also Kingdom death also literally has a diety that makes humans to suffer for kicks. There is no escape. Not even in death. Also there are monsters that will rip your dick off.
I guess your idea of Dark Fantasy Id say are only "pretty" if you put absolutely no thought into how everybody else is suffering and the meaningless of even trying to find meaning in a world that actively hates you, and will personally smash any meaning you find.
I've always included the Dark Fantasy aspect of old school Warhammer when running WFRP. If the Warhammer world is ice cream, it has dark fantasy swirled through it, top to bottom. It should also have a certain grimy brutality.
Sunday, July 9, 2023
Greetings!
Dark Fantasy is an interesting genre. I tend to think Dark Fantasy relies more upon art, music, and elements of gritty, mature, heroic realism, mixed with the nihilistic. There are victories, but always at a cost. Elements of horror, savagery, and degenerate aspects are encountered throughout. I would also agree that it is often Doom-laden and Nihilistic—but it does not require that. The Warhammer Novels, for example. The protagonists usually win—whatever they are trying to do—but unlike Heroic Fantasy, there are always costs, and typically some severe casualties along the journey. Dark Fantasy is very different in theme and tone from Heroic Fantasy. The Kane books are an excellent example, of course.
I also tend to think that many interpretations of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Historic Fantasy books such as by Jack Whyte, and Bernhard Cornwell, Dark Fantasy is something you can definitely see in literature, art, and perhaps music, but somewhat less so as distinguishable a *game genre* Having said that, I generally view Dark Fantasy gaming as a genre or sub-genre that is much like standard fantasy gaming, but more adult-themed, with darker themes and atmosphere. The themes can be heroic and meaningful, but it is not especially geared towards children, or happy, neat endings, or even nice, happy journeys. The process and atmosphere are very different from standard fantasy, or Heroic fantasy. Dark Fantasy embraces darker themes and grim topics, from warfare, torture, rape, insanity, sex, horrifying abuse, dysfunctional relationships, cruelty, madness, to more complex emotional and spiritual elements of hatred, jealousy, envy, spite, vengeance, damnation, as well as redemption and hope. Some pretty heavy stuff, as I mentioned, more geared for adults.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 09, 2023, 01:27:27 AM
Also Im not sure how cannon it is, and if Im even remembering it correctly, but isn't it a universe that punishes you for thoughtcrime? That the evil god is born of human thought for the crime of wanting an explanation for suffering? Again that was a long time ago and I heard the author kinda maybe stepped away from that explanation.
There is the "godhand" which is 5 demonic entities (straightforwardly inspired by the cenobytes in Hellraiser it would seem). There is also the "idea of evil" which is essentially this spiraling force that consumes souls into itself. The manga had not, as far as I'm aware, provided an authoritative explanation regarding its origin and exact nature. There is a general explanation of what it is, but it's provided by a demon. If you read the manga critically, it's fairly obvious that half the stuff you hear about the astral realm, even if told to you by a native of that realm, is not always reliable information. The closest thing to a reliable narrator is Guts' witch companion and she still lacks a lot of context. We are told that apostles have no humanity nor any free will, but that's proven false early on in the black swordsman arc. We're also given a prophecy about the hawks of light and darkness and the situation is basically the inverse of what is going on. It seems like a recurring theme of unrealiable info. The only thing we can state with certainty is that the idea of evil can consume the souls of the demonic apostles when they refuse to sacrifice as part of their faustian bargain for eternal life. Even if we presume the idea of evil is a sentient being who is trying to ordain, under the laws of causality, the most evil ends, it's not much worse than the Powers within the Ravenloft setting.
Quote
Again thats if your the mercy to be the main protagonist. Everybody else gets to go through hell.
Not really - Guts has it worse than most because he has lived or is living through events which 99% of people will never even have any awareness of and his brand now inextricably ties his fate to that of the astral realm (the origin of all the evil stuff). The astral realm is strongly implied to have been harshly suppressed so that generations have now passed since the astral realm has had influence. Now, the astral realm is pushing its way back in and becoming increasingly influential, and all hell breaking loose is only natural. The other evils in the world are of the sort you'd find IRL (slavery, war, rape, murder, all the rest). Contrast that with Ravenloft, which presumably has all of the normal evils of the world plus also the relatively commonplace supernatural evils (plus seemingly sentient powers ensuring nobody ever escapes the domains of dread).
The world of Berserk is undoubtedly bleak, but it has more hope in it IMO than most of Warhammer or Ravenloft or a number of other things that don't quite get painted with the same brush. Berserk is at its core an existential fantasy - it's about finding meaning in the choices you make. It asks what life is worth living once you're no longer focused on how you can get to your happy ending. Guts' struggle is grounded in what feels like a hopeless situation, but I feel pretty confident that it's not actually hopeless. Once again, there's so much unreliable info I wouldn't take anything at face value. The story constantly tells Guts and the audience that everything is bound within causality - that all things are predetermined, and yet existentialism is ultimately about agency. Somebody is lying, and I guarantee you it's the characters in the story and not the author's heavy-handed and intentional existentialist themes. The story will necessarily find a way of explaining that all that talk about causality was empty, or there's some loophole which makes Guts' decision to overcome his rage and make a meaningful choice to live rather than die ultimately the savior of himself, his loved ones, or the world.
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 08, 2023, 10:22:18 PM
What is Ravenloft? Or Warhammer Fantasy?
I think Ravenloft is clearly gothic horror fantasy. Warhammer fantasy is grimdark fantasy since warhammer basically invented the term grimdark. Warhammer is an actually nihilistic universe IMO (especially 40k).
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 08, 2023, 04:17:29 PM
When I think about what I would consider to be iconic examples of "dark fantasy", such as Elric, Berserk, or Dark Souls, they aren't overly grotesque, nor are they relentlessly miserable. The mood is if anything more melancholy than horrific, and the moments of grimness are balanced by moments of bombast and grand mysteries. They also tend to be fairly self-serious. Not without their moments of levity, but veering away from parody or meta-humor.
So that's my definition. "Dark fantasy" takes elements of horror, and infuses them with the scale and scope of "epic fantasy", often with themes of tragedy, entropy or collapse. It largely eschews irony, gross-out and shock value, in favor of a greater focus on mystery, spectacle and splendor. Even the horrific elements of "dark fantasy" often (though not always) have an element of grandeur or beauty to them. The horrific elements aim to attract, rather than repulse. It's that balance of tone which separates it from both "horror fantasy" and "epic fantasy", and the straightfaced-ness which separates it from "weird fantasy". Though arguably, it's a hybrid of all of the above. "Dark fantasy" is not about zombie plagues, serial killers, or politics (though it may include those things). It's more about strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms.
To bring this back to tabletop games, I don't think I've yet played or read a game that really nails this tone. Old-school D&D is too mundane (and often too gonzo), and new school D&D is too safe and cheerful. I'll concede you could probably homebrew any fantasy game to try and accommodate it, but I can't say I've seen anyone get it right "out of the box".
I agree strongly with your feelings about the dark fantasy genre - it's one of my favorites, but it's also a broad genre and perhaps there are too many subgenres for dark fantasy to have much meaning anymore (kind of like "rock"). However I think another explanation is that people don't really understand the genre, and that's why they can't make it click and why we don't see many games in the genre. It's a genre ripe for revival and reinvention. Old-school D&D is more influenced by things like pulp fantasy, sci-fantasy of the 70s, historical wargaming, and all kinds of other genres than dark fantasy. It only ever feels like dark fantasy IMO because it shares some traits (like horror, sense of dread, etc).
There are a lot of games which are popular with a dark aesthetic, but they often don't have dark conceptual themes nor do they wrestle with the existentialist side of these concepts which I feel is essential. When games attempt to deal with dark fantasy concepts, you mostly see everything cranked up to 11 (like mork borg or a fair bit of warhammer or whatever else). It takes on a nihilistic quality because the game can't help but deliver a canonical explanation that the situation is well and truly hopeless and everything can only get worse from here. Dark fantasy can be truly awful for the people stuck within it, but it can never be allowed to truly and conclusively be hopeless. I think dark fantasy suffers from the same problem a lot of lovecraftian/mythos-related fiction suffers from: people don't understand the nature of cosmic horror. Cosmic horror is not fundamentally about nihilism, it's about the fact that you'll never truly be able to survive or comprehend or escape the evils of the mythos unless and until you merge with it and leave your humanity behind. That's a fear of the unknown, a repulsion to evil, and a fear of loss of identity, not a belief that nothing matters. Things most definitely matter in both cosmic horror and dark fantasy, but you usually have to piece together the meaning yourself.
I will probably post again later when I have more time, but I think one essential element of dark fantasy is that the problems are always so much bigger than the protagonist that there will never be a satisfying and final victory. The protagonist is capable of solving some problems - they just won't be the kinds of victories that will ever usher in a golden age or a lasting peace. The "good guys" are fighting every day to prolong a stalemate that prevents the worse outcomes from being realized. Someday, though, there might be a golden opportunity to ultimately triumph - but it probably won't come in your lifetime. So what do you do with yourself? The horror and beauty and tragedy and melancholy are all connected, I think, to this idea.
Seeing this thread highlights how little the understanding behind the dark fantasy genre really is. Somehow, everyone has their own concept of what it should be. It either is what it is, or it isn't.
The general categories fall within the following,
Fantasy
Action
Horror
Each general category has multiple sub categories
Dark Fantasy, is a sub element of Fantasy. Could you add horror to dark fantasy? Sure. Does it have to contain horror, no! Horror is its own element. The secret to understanding things really comes down to understanding how they work from the ground up.
Quote from: Old Aegidius on July 09, 2023, 07:25:50 AMThere is the "godhand" which is 5 demonic entities (straightforwardly inspired by the cenobytes in Hellraiser it would seem). There is also the "idea of evil" which is essentially this spiraling force that consumes souls into itself.
Im the least familiar with Berserk out of the other settings listed. So il take your word for it.
Love the genre, and generally agree with your bullet points. Have collected a number of "Dark Fantasy" TTRPGs over the years, however my favorite in the genre by far is Symbaroum by Fria Ligan (curretly my favorite RPG publisher by a country mile). Not the 5E version but the original. Was annoyed when they put new releases on hold to focus on publishing the 5e version.
Has everything you are looking for. The forest of Davokar is the focus of the campaign world, a vast corrupted wilderness filled with ancient lost kingdoms, hellish ruins, chaotic monstrosities, tainted elves, etc. Incredible art that hits home, just all around excellent books and adventures.
https://freeleaguepublishing.com/en/games/symbaroum/
Other good dark fantasy games:
Shadows of Esteren
https://portal.esteren.org/en
Black Void
https://www.modiphius.net/en-us/products/black-void-core-book
There are other games that hit the sweet spot for me even though they are not traditional "fantasy", such as the new Kult RPG for modern "dark urban fantasy", LexOccultum for gothic "dark fantasy" in renaissance France.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/riotminds/lexoccultum-role-playing-game
In short, it appears that European companies do dark fantasy far better than North American publishers, sice all the above games have come from Europe. Closest NA game I can think of would be Shadow of the Demon Lord, which is a decent game and system, but not quite at the level of the above games in terms of hitting the right notes of the genre. Closets classic game I can think of would be the original 1e Ravenloft box set, some of the domains of dread had a decent gothic dark fantasy feel (such as Lord Soth's Realm).
If you are a comics fan, there are also several great dark fantasy titles that have popped up through the years, mainly by Eurpoe Comics/Soliel, a few titles to look for:
Arawn: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/arawn/4005-58699/issues-cover/
The Black Moon Chronicles: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/the-black-moon-chronicles/4050-99886/
The recent Elric graphic novels: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/elric/4050-76999/
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on July 09, 2023, 08:12:25 AM
Seeing this thread highlights how little the understanding behind the dark fantasy genre really is. Somehow, everyone has their own concept of what it should be. It either is what it is, or it isn't.
The general categories fall within the following,
Fantasy
Action
Horror
Each general category has multiple sub categories
Dark Fantasy, is a sub element of Fantasy. Could you add horror to dark fantasy? Sure. Does it have to contain horror, no! Horror is its own element. The secret to understanding things really comes down to understanding how they work from the ground up.
I think part of the struggle with genres is a common idea that they're hierarchical - but they're more like clusters of common traits. Genres are better defined by the media categorized under them rather than pure concepts, but the thing that brings that media together under the category are those pure concepts. Every time you remove the practical example from discussion though, things start to get blurry.
Specific examples were provided of what ForgottenF believed were emblematic of the dark fantasy genre - Berserk, Dark Souls, Elric. I have only passing familiarity with Elric but I can definitely see commonality between these pieces of media. If I try to capture that commonality in its essence, divorced from the media, I don't think that's going to work super well. Besides, it's only useful if you're trying to make your own piece of media and want to keep the essence of what you think is so great about the genre. In most other cases, it's more productive to say "I like Berserk, Dark Souls, and Elric - recommend me something else" than it is to say "recommend me something good in the dark fantasy genre". Genres are just a reference to some cluster, and I feel like Berserk and Dark Souls at least have enough cultural power that these properties will spring to mind if someone mentions dark fantasy. So I think the term is still useful. The alternative to broad genres like dark fantasy are the hyper-specific genres which are often seen in music where a genre is essentially composed of a single band. Berserk is both classic and has had staying power, so I feel like it's fair to let it act as anchor for a genre. I don't know what else it could be called other than dark fantasy (since that's how it bills itself).
Once you've figured out a genre you have to gatekeep it or the genre loses meaning because too many pieces of media get incorporated as exemplars. For example: cosmic horror has become so self-referential and nihilistic that most modern media billed as cosmic horror is something else entirely. Engage with the typical modern lovecraft-inspired piece of media and you'll get a second-hand vision of what cosmic horror filtered through a lens of pop culture that has essentially destroyed it. It's all tentacles and madness and nihilism and...it's not particularly horrific.
Quote from: Valhuen on July 09, 2023, 02:19:43 PM
Love the genre, and generally agree with your bullet points. Have collected a number of "Dark Fantasy" TTRPGs over the years....
Thanks for the recommendations. I've given Symbaroum a brief look previously. Might be worth a more detailed read-through. I was hoping to find someone running it and give it a try first-hand, but haven't been able to yet.
Had never heard of Shadows of Esteren. I'll give it the quickstart a readthrough, but the low-fantasy and gothic emphasis seems like it might be out of tone for what I'm thinking of.
I actually do own Black Void, and yeah, I would definitely count the setting as an example of Dark Fantasy, the way I'm using the term. I never got around to running it, partially because I thought it'd be hard to connect players to such an out-there setting, but mostly because I couldn't make sense of the magic system. :P
I'm not that big of a comics person generally. I did pick up the first volume of the new Elric graphic novels, but they don't really compare with the novels for me.
Arawn and Black Moon Chronicles both look like exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'll try and get a hold of them, thanks. I definitely agree with you that the Europeans -- particularly the French for some reason -- seem to get into Dark Fantasy in a way that Americans really don't.
There's a clarification which I think I ought to make, since it's been hinted at by quite a few people's responses. I was proposing a definition of "dark fantasy" which is more aesthetic than thematic in nature. I think I confused the issue unnecessarily by citing both Berserk and Dark Souls as examples. Those two share a lot of thematic similarities, because the latter is heavily based on the former. To broaden out the conversation a bit, let me throw out a few more examples of what I mean by Dark Fantasy:
I've already mentioned HP Lovecract's "Dream Cycle", particularly "Polaris" and "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath". I'd also cite the videogames "Dragon's Dogma", "Dark Messiah of Might and Magic" and "Diablo" (at least the first two, never played the more recent ones), most of the artwork of Gerald Brom (including his work for Dark Sun), and the "Frank Frazetta's Death Dealer" comics. Speaking of Frank Frazetta, I think I would consider "Fire and Ice" to be Dark Fantasy as well.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 09, 2023, 10:41:59 AM
Quote from: Old Aegidius on July 09, 2023, 07:25:50 AMThere is the "godhand" which is 5 demonic entities (straightforwardly inspired by the cenobytes in Hellraiser it would seem). There is also the "idea of evil" which is essentially this spiraling force that consumes souls into itself.
Im the least familiar with Berserk out of the other settings listed. So il take your word for it.
To elaborate a bit. Miura explicitly excluded the chapter with The Idea of Evil in yhe volume releases of Berserk because he regretted adding it to the story which is why it is never mentioned again. It may be effectively non-canon or he planned to reintroduce it later into the story.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 09, 2023, 03:55:30 PMI've already mentioned HP Lovecract's "Dream Cycle", particularly "Polaris" and "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath". I'd also cite the videogames "Dragon's Dogma", "Dark Messiah of Might and Magic" and "Diablo" (at least the first two, never played the more recent ones), most of the artwork of Gerald Brom (including his work for Dark Sun), and the "Frank Frazetta's Death Dealer" comics. Speaking of Frank Frazetta, I think I would consider "Fire and Ice" to be Dark Fantasy as well.
The largest commonality (not 100% but close) thematically in terms of what you see as a Dark Fantasy appears to be...futility I think. Either cyclical rotations of voilence, unstoppable evils, or a world past the brink.
I guess I find futility pretty frustrating to play, and it can generally deolve into a GM power trip.
Quote from: Slambo on July 09, 2023, 04:42:33 PMTo elaborate a bit. Miura explicitly excluded the chapter with The Idea of Evil in yhe volume releases of Berserk because he regretted adding it to the story which is why it is never mentioned again. It may be effectively non-canon or he planned to reintroduce it later into the story.
Im glad about that. Because the logic of the idea of evil is punishment for thought crime. At which point guts may as well throw his head into a woodchipper because everybody can be angels in Berserktopia but if their THINKING impure thoughts, you get raped by a tentacle monster.
Anyway Im pretty sure the author died. Sad, even if I didn't really care for the story.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 09, 2023, 03:55:30 PM
There's a clarification which I think I ought to make, since it's been hinted at by quite a few people's responses. I was proposing a definition of "dark fantasy" which is more aesthetic than thematic in nature.
My question then would be, where exactly would aesthetics show up in an RPG? Just the game art? How exactly do you see aesthetics translating to mechanics? How would mechanics support the aesthetic?
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 08, 2023, 04:17:29 PM
Most recently inspired by this thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/blackbirds-rpg/), but this topic has been stewing in my head for a while.
Let me say at the outset that I understand genre distinctions can be fuzzy, especially sub-sub-genre distinctions like this one, and I know a lot of people find them pointless. I still consider them worthwhile, because when you're looking for something specific, it helps to have a name to put on it. To paraphrase the YouTuber "Perg Productions": If you tell me a band plays "rock", I have no idea what that means, but if you tell me they play "technical death metal", I now have a pretty clear expectation of what they're going to sound like.
In a previous thread, Eric Diaz linked to this (quite good) blog post: https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/03/my-weird-dark-twisted-fantasy.html
I can't stress enough that this post is NOT a shot at Eric, but that post uses the common definition of "dark fantasy" as the combination of fantasy and horror. That definition has never sat well with me. All of the "dark fantasy" properties which I Iove definitely include an element of horror, but it's often fairly minor, and it's a very specific kind of horror. Eric reconciles this in his blog by expanding the definition of horror to include tragedy as well. A good start, but it doesn't reconcile the issue for me.
Nice! Thanks for sharing the post! No offense taken, I'm happy at the opportunity of discussing Dark Fantasy, a theme I love. Apparently, you have a taste that's similar to mine! Even if we disagree with some specifics, I think we will agree in other stuff.
First, let me see I do agree that's that fantasy is not simply fantasy + horror. I did mentioned tragedy at some length, maybe I should have emphasized suffering too; I think much of dark fantasy focuses on
suffering. This seems to be true for every example you mention (Elric, Berserk, or Dark Souls) and every example I can think of right now.
I recently read Kane (Darkness Weaves), and man, that is dark to the point of grimdark. Everybody is evil and everybody suffers a lot... torture, SA, 90% of the characters die, etc.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 08, 2023, 04:17:29 PM
There's a semi famous quote from Demon's Souls/Dark Souls director Hidetaka Miyazaki, where he talks about maintaining "a certain level of refinement and elegance" in the design of his games. And that, I think, is getting at the core of what separates "dark fantasy" from just "horror fantasy ". When I think about what I would consider to be iconic examples of "dark fantasy", such as Elric, Berserk, or Dark Souls, they aren't overly grotesque, nor are they relentlessly miserable. The mood is if anything more melancholy than horrific, and the moments of grimness are balanced by moments of bombast and grand mysteries. They also tend to be fairly self-serious. Not without their moments of levity, but veering away from parody or meta-humor.
So that's my definition. "Dark fantasy" takes elements of horror, and infuses them with the scale and scope of "epic fantasy", often with themes of tragedy, entropy or collapse. It largely eschews irony, gross-out and shock value, in favor of a greater focus on mystery, spectacle and splendor. Even the horrific elements of "dark fantasy" often (though not always) have an element of grandeur or beauty to them. The horrific elements aim to attract, rather than repulse. It's that balance of tone which separates it from both "horror fantasy" and "epic fantasy", and the straightfaced-ness which separates it from "weird fantasy". Though arguably, it's a hybrid of all of the above. "Dark fantasy" is not about zombie plagues, serial killers, or politics (though it may include those things). It's more about strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms.
To bring this back to tabletop games, I don't think I've yet played or read a game that really nails this tone. Old-school D&D is too mundane (and often too gonzo), and new school D&D is too safe and cheerful. I'll concede you could probably homebrew any fantasy game to try and accommodate it, but I can't say I've seen anyone get it right "out of the box". There are a few possible reasons why:
[...]
The most obvious reason might be a lack of demand. The fantasy RPG market seems to be divided into two broad groups. Those that want their light-hearted, quippy marvel/anime style modern fantasy, and those that want either weird fantasy or pulp sword-and-sorcery style. This is a little odd, though, as in other mediums (comics, videogames, books, and visual art) dark fantasy is absolutely booming.
Another issue might be that tabletop games traditionally struggle with doing the more epic side of fantasy, without falling into the trap of becoming superhero games. This may be why games set in dark fantasy settings such as WFRP or Black Void tend to focus the action on more street-level or political conflicts. The concrete numerical nature of tabletop games makes it hard to have characters that can travel the cosmos and credibly square off with a demon king, but also won't just run roughshod over the rest of the setting. There was a game I was checking out called "Demongate" that seemed to get the tone right, but I watched some actual play and the PCs seemed to be ridiculously overpowered.
The "dark fantasy" tone also requires that it be played straight, and ttrpg games have a tendency to rapidly trend towards silliness. Partially, this is just an obvious side effect of sitting at a table with your friends to play a game. Partially, I think it's just too hard to maintain a dark or serious tone over the length of a proper tabletop campaign. Drama, like horror, tends to work better in shorter-form mediums.
Anybody else like or engage with this kind of fantasy, or can you recommend tabletop games that set out to do it and make it work?
Refinement and elegance are good, and I agree that all the examples you mentioned are great (some of my favorites, really), but I do not think they are particular to dark fantasy. What these games/books have in common is a focus on tragedy and suffering. Elric is doomed to suffering, maybe eternally; Guts suffers more as a child than most heroes, and in Dark Souls IIRC you have to choose between destroying the world or destroying yourself. Kane is awesome but is more blood and guts than "elegance".
Also, these are all "overly grotesque" or "relentlessly miserable" when compared to mainstream fantasy (e.g., Tolkien, LeGuin, Vance, Lewis, Dunsany and even Howard).
(Elric specifically can never find peace and might cause the destruction of the universe by killing a creature that has been suffering for aeons out of mercy - IIRC).
About dark fantasy RPGs... well, I am obviously biased to recommend my own, since this is my focus (and I even have a "dark fantasy line"). I'll find another post that explains why I call my RPGs "dark fantasy".
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/306824/Dark-Fantasy-EVERYTHING-BUNDLE
For other RPGs, they usually add some humor to the mix (WFRPG, SotDL). SotDL can more or less be played straight, without it, and seems to achieve the final battle with the Demon Lord you might be looking for. I ran an entire campaign and it went very well.
I think dark fantasy RPGs more popular because they are a bit hard on the player characters. There are not that many players that wants to engage with the genre straight. Nevertheless, I ran a few good ones.
I mentioned suffering, others mentioned nihilism, and I agree. "Meaningless suffering" might be a good criteria, as meaningful suffering/sacrifice can still be epic (not tragic). Still, I think suffering is the main focus, even if something partially good comes out of it.
I think I have one good example: Poul Anderson. Two of the three books mentioned in the appendix N are "three hearts and three lions" and " the broken sword". I reviewed both; they have elves, swords, trolls and magic. But the first is not Dark Fantasy: the protagonist goes in a series of quests and ends up finding quite literally the epitome of meaningful suffering (should a spoil a good if very old book?). TBS, however, is very dark, as it focuses on all kinds of suffering (for all main characters): fratricide, war, incest, etc., and it all ends with no clear meaning.
I'm not a big fan of "Black Mirror", but the first few seasons are definitely "dark" in that sense: endless depictions of creative torture, sometimes long-lasting or eternal.
"The Blade Itself" is an example of dark fantasy failure, IMO, as it show some torture and suffering that never seem to get to the protagonists "on screen", it only gives then troubled pasts.
ASOIF is also dark fantasy because it focus on the dispossessed, the maimed, the deformed, the morally imperfect, etc. It has more depictions of suffering than Lord of the Rings, for example. But not as much as Kane.
I've always understood "dark fantasy" to mean fantasy with an edgy aesthetic in an attempt to appear more mature than Tolkien. Writers throw in blood, guts, boobs, butts, and tons of literal darkness. As with generic "heroic" fantasy, most of it is utter tripe. There's really only two kinds of dark fantasy: the first type copies the same plot outline as heroic fantasy with the heroes saving the world but everybody acts like jerks about it, and the second type wallows in torturing the cast and having a bad ending where everyone dies or suffers in Hell forever.
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 08, 2023, 06:58:53 PM
Karl Edward Wagner coined the term dark fantasy and his Kane books aren't really horror. They are like nihilistic Swords & Sorcery.
Yeah!! IIRC, he's the first author to use the term for Fantasy, and not generally for "creepy tales with monsters that self-define as not being part of the Horror genre".
My two cents on this are, the difference between "Fantasy tales" and "Dark Fantasy tales" are, in "Dark Fantasy" there is no absolute truth:
Say, "Fantasy" Gandalf understands everything about Sauron because the same set of rules applies to everything, and because Gandalf knows all about Sauron on a metaphysical level.
"Dark Fantasy" Elric doesn't entirely understand Arioch because there is one set of rules for what humans know, and then there is one set of rules for what monsters know.
Or, to give another example: In Terry Brooks' "Shannara" series, you can Google things at the Hadeshorn; all info you get there is always true and good. In ASOIAF, you can Google things, too, by sacrificing children of royal blood - but you have no certainty of outcome, and you don't even know who you're talking to: You can do everything right, and still fail, because you don't have this concept of "Truth", just one of "Reality".
At the gaming table, I'm not sure how this would translate, given that the very activity of gaming requires the players to rely on "Rules" and "Truth": As a DM/"storyteller of the world", you have to hand them minimal control as to how their characters play, and how they
really work. - In my own experience, whenever I want to make things "dark", I play on this "uncertainty of outcome": The quest-giver might have lied to the party, the villagers have killed the maiden themselves, the night terror is an enchanted princess, etc.
I don't think you can make a story or an adventure "Dark Fantasy" by default, though - it's something that develops through the interaction of the characters, not through the narrative setup. "Count Duckula" has all the narrative elements of "Vampire Hunter D", but it's not Dark Fantasy. :)
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 10, 2023, 01:25:14 PM
I've always understood "dark fantasy" to mean fantasy with an edgy aesthetic in an attempt to appear more mature than Tolkien. Writers throw in blood, guts, boobs, butts...
Nothing more mature than a ton of boobs and butts. ;D I'm working on my new Heavy Gear campaign RN and I keep having to tell myself
Not Every NPC Can Be A Bootilicious Babe, Simon... ;D
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 10, 2023, 09:49:49 AM
I mentioned suffering, others mentioned nihilism, and I agree. "Meaningless suffering" might be a good criteria, as meaningful suffering/sacrifice can still be epic (not tragic). Still, I think suffering is the main focus, even if something partially good comes out of it.
I have to disagree pretty strongly about that. The Norse myths inevitably end in the final defeat of the gods at Ragnarok. Are they meaningless? Are they not tragic? What about the Iliad? That's almost entirely about violence and suffering. The way I see it, the meaning in a tragic story is found in the tragedy itself.
I think you're conflating tragedy with sadism.
Going back to the original examples:
Elric's story is one of dramatic irony. A creature of Chaos who by a quirk of fate is pressed into the service of Order. Elric's death comes as the culmination of his destiny, of routing the forces of Chaos and restoring balance to his world. The tragedy is in the fact that he never had a choice, and in the personal cost he pays in fulfilling it.
Berserk's story is unfinished, and with the death of Kentaro Miura, any ending that gets published will always have an asterisk attached to it. That said, I don't see how anyone can read the manga seriously and not see it as a morality play. Guts' world is first built, and then destroyed, by the arrogant ambition of Griffith. Miura played it pretty cagey as to what the ultimate moral of the story was going to be, but at the time of his death the trajectory appeared to be that while Guts' quest for revenge was justified, he could never fulfill it until he let go of vengeance for its own sake, and learned instead to fight for the people he cared about.
Dark Souls plays things even more cagey with its overarching narrative (as it does with most things), and the "point" has probably changed with different directors and creatives throughout the series. I think the most credible interpretation of the first games' ending is that you're presented with a choice: 1) Sacrifice yourself to preserve the Age of Fire, returning the world to the state of former glory you've been witnessing the ruins of the whole game, but do so in the full knowledge that state is transient and will inevitably fade again; or 2) gamble on the Age of Dark, which might easily prove to be worse, but will at least be different (conservative vs. progressive you might say, though I think that's unintentional). The second game toys with the idea of a middle way, but never confirms whether it's actually possible, and the third game implies that the fire/dark dichotomy is itself illusory and the world will inevitably return to it's pre-cycle state of changelessness.
Of the three, the most seemingly "nihilistic" is Dark Souls. The concept of an eternal cycle of entropic decay is arguably a nihilistic one. The problem is that Dark Souls also has a concurrently running theme of purpose and perseverance. The entire Undead Curse, which is the central narrative device of the games, is built around it. Undeath in the Dark Souls universe is actually a pretty good gig. You retain all your faculties and are functionally immortal. The downside is the hollowing process, wherein you lose your mind and become a ravenous monster. Hollowing only occurs when an Undead loses their spirit and sense of purpose. All of the NPCs you meet that later go hollow are cautionary tales about what happens when you give up in the face of adversity.
It's also worth pointing out that the appeal of the Dark Souls games is much less about the grand narrative, and more about the little sub-stories that are sprinkled throughout. For proof of that, just go look at any of the million youtube videos retelling those stories and their view-counts. I was going to spell several of them out, but this comment is already too long. Suffice to say that while the vast majority of them are tragic, the most memorable ones are rarely about senseless cruelty. They're about things like love, honor, devotion, greed, or sacrifice.
There are valid objections to all three: Elric arguably strips the protagonist of agency in making him a pawn of fate. Berserk arguably doesn't need to be so grim and gory to tell its story, and Dark Souls is likely to be unpalatable to a Western mindset. The idea of eternal cycles and escaping them as the goal has a distinctly Buddhist bent to it. But I don't see how you can credibly reduce any of them down to meaningless violence and sadism.
Even more lowbrow Dark Fantasy stuff like Goblin Slayer or the Death Dealer comics usually has something else going on beyond just being gorey.
What does feel that way to me is Game of Thrones (I use that title, because I haven't read the books). That really strikes me as a fictional world built on pointless cruelty, randomly directed at innocents with no greater narrative or thematic purpose. That's a big part of why I dislike GoT. But I might just be ignorant of what's going on under the surface of that story.
By reputation, the Black Company books sound like the same thing, but again I haven't read them. I finally bit the bullet and got eBooks of the Kane series, so I'll have an opinion on those soon. Maybe I'll feel the same way; maybe not.
Trying to circle this back to the topic, I have a real problem squaring the circle of Game of Thrones and Elric being in the same genre. GoT is relentlessly grim and practical; down-to-earth to the point of being covered in mud. There is no apparent cosmic order or right and wrong. Meanwhile Elric is far more romantic and conceptual, and is centered around a conflict between cosmic forces.
As I said above, It's possible that I've got the wong end of the stick entirely by even trying to talk about "Dark Fantasy". The more the conversation goes on, the more I think "Dark" is just a modifier that ought to be applied to other sub-genres. Everything I've been talking about might be described as "dark heroic fantasy" (or as I suggested, "cosmic fantasy"). Maybe Kane is "dark swords and sorcery" and GoT is "dark historical fantasy".
I don't know. I'm definitely not claiming to have the perfect answer on this.
EDIT: To add to that second-to-last paragraph, I suppose that's kind of what I was getting at when I posited that "dark fantasy" is more an aesthetic and tonal genre than a thematic one.
Quote from: S'mon on July 10, 2023, 08:36:24 PM
;D I'm working on my new Heavy Gear campaign RN and I keep having to tell myself Not Every NPC Can Be A Bootilicious Babe, Simon... ;D
Why not? Setting all the seriousness aside, boobs are fun.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 10, 2023, 09:01:40 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 10, 2023, 09:49:49 AM
I mentioned suffering, others mentioned nihilism, and I agree. "Meaningless suffering" might be a good criteria, as meaningful suffering/sacrifice can still be epic (not tragic). Still, I think suffering is the main focus, even if something partially good comes out of it.
I have to disagree pretty strongly about that. The Norse myths inevitably end in the final defeat of the gods at Ragnarok. Are they meaningless? Are they not tragic? What about the Iliad? That's almost entirely about violence and suffering. The way I see it, the meaning in a tragic story is found in the tragedy itself.
I think you're conflating tragedy with sadism.
Going back to the original examples:
Elric's story is one of dramatic irony. A creature of Chaos who by a quirk of fate is pressed into the service of Order. Elric's death comes as the culmination of his destiny, of routing the forces of Chaos and restoring balance to his world. The tragedy is in the fact that he never had a choice, and in the personal cost he pays in fulfilling it.
Berserk's story is unfinished, and with the death of Kentaro Miura, any ending that gets published will always have an asterisk attached to it. That said, I don't see how anyone can read the manga seriously and not see it as a morality play. Guts' world is first built, and then destroyed, by the arrogant ambition of Griffith. Miura played it pretty cagey as to what the ultimate moral of the story was going to be, but at the time of his death the trajectory appeared to be that while Guts' quest for revenge was justified, he could never fulfill it until he let go of vengeance for its own sake, and learned instead to fight for the people he cared about.
Dark Souls plays things even more cagey with its overarching narrative (as it does with most things), and the "point" has probably changed with different directors and creatives throughout the series. I think the most credible interpretation of the first games' ending is that you're presented with a choice: 1) Sacrifice yourself to preserve the Age of Fire, returning the world to the state of former glory you've been witnessing the ruins of the whole game, but do so in the full knowledge that state is transient and will inevitably fade again; or 2) gamble on the Age of Dark, which might easily prove to be worse, but will at least be different (conservative vs. progressive you might say, though I think that's unintentional). The second game toys with the idea of a middle way, but never confirms whether it's actually possible, and the third game implies that the fire/dark dichotomy is itself illusory and the world will inevitably return to it's pre-cycle state of changelessness.
Of the three, the most seemingly "nihilistic" is Dark Souls. The concept of an eternal cycle of entropic decay is arguably a nihilistic one. The problem is that Dark Souls also has a concurrently running theme of purpose and perseverance. The entire Undead Curse, which is the central narrative device of the games, is built around it. Undeath in the Dark Souls universe is actually a pretty good gig. You retain all your faculties and are functionally immortal. The downside is the hollowing process, wherein you lose your mind and become a ravenous monster. Hollowing only occurs when an Undead loses their spirit and sense of purpose. All of the NPCs you meet that later go hollow are cautionary tales about what happens when you give up in the face of adversity.
It's also worth pointing out that the appeal of the Dark Souls games is much less about the grand narrative, and more about the little sub-stories that are sprinkled throughout. For proof of that, just go look at any of the million youtube videos retelling those stories and their view-counts. I was going to spell several of them out, but this comment is already too long. Suffice to say that while the vast majority of them are tragic, the most memorable ones are rarely about senseless cruelty. They're about things like love, honor, devotion, greed, or sacrifice.
There are valid objections to all three: Elric arguably strips the protagonist of agency in making him a pawn of fate. Berserk arguably doesn't need to be so grim and gory to tell its story, and Dark Souls is likely to be unpalatable to a Western mindset. The idea of eternal cycles and escaping them as the goal has a distinctly Buddhist bent to it. But I don't see how you can credibly reduce any of them down to meaningless violence and sadism.
Even more lowbrow Dark Fantasy stuff like Goblin Slayer or the Death Dealer comics usually has something else going on beyond just being gorey.
What does feel that way to me is Game of Thrones (I use that title, because I haven't read the books). That really strikes me as a fictional world built on pointless cruelty, randomly directed at innocents with no greater narrative or thematic purpose. That's a big part of why I dislike GoT. But I might just be ignorant of what's going on under the surface of that story.
By reputation, the Black Company books sound like the same thing, but again I haven't read them. I finally bit the bullet and got eBooks of the Kane series, so I'll have an opinion on those soon. Maybe I'll feel the same way; maybe not.
Trying to circle this back to the topic, I have a real problem squaring the circle of Game of Thrones and Elric being in the same genre. GoT is relentlessly grim and practical; down-to-earth to the point of being covered in mud. There is no apparent cosmic order or right and wrong. Meanwhile Elric is far more romantic and conceptual, and is centered around a conflict between cosmic forces.
As I said above, It's possible that I've got the wong end of the stick entirely by even trying to talk about "Dark Fantasy". The more the conversation goes on, the more I think "Dark" is just a modifier that ought to be applied to other sub-genres. Everything I've been talking about might be described as "dark heroic fantasy" (or as I suggested, "cosmic fantasy"). Maybe Kane is "dark swords and sorcery" and GoT is "dark historical fantasy".
I don't know. I'm definitely not claiming to have the perfect answer on this.
EDIT: To add to that second-to-last paragraph, that's kind of what I was getting at when I posited that "dark fantasy" is more an aesthetic and tonal genre than a thematic one.
I think we mostly agree with this - I meant nihilism and meaningless suffering can often be present, but the "suffering" part is the important one, "even if something good comes out of it".
Notice, suffering permeates the entire human experience. Dark fantasy DWELLS on it - hopelessness, eternal punishment, torture, endless death ("scorched earth" style), and so on. Both Elric and GoT do this, but while Elric has being condemned to suffer for aeons or never find peace, GoT talks about famine, dysentery and SA - while Berserk does both torture/SA and some comic horror.
These are both "dark fantasy" in the same way as Lovecraft and Texas Chainsaw massacre are both horror, but one is "cosmic horror" and the other is "slasher".
Believe Game of Thrones was loosely based on the War of the Roses.
Which if you read the history on that war, it was as bloody or worse than the TV series/books.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 10, 2023, 09:01:40 PMI think you're conflating tragedy with sadism.
No Id say Dark Fantasy borders on sadism. As in enjoyment comes from the suffering of the characters. And explicitly suffering.
A Dark Fantasy with a happy ending or overcoming the odds in a meaningful way without everybody else suffering in hell for millenniums generally instantly loses its "Dark Fantasy" connotations. Ergo it is about suffering. It's not necessarily sexual pleasure, but our kicks come from how shit everybody else is.
I'm bilely fascinated with Dark Fantasy settings. I like reading up on them, and they indeed look cool, but a key aspect is HOPELESSNESS and suffering. Nihilism need not apply. I mean there is a meaning in Kingdom Death - Amusement for a malevolent deity.
Edit: Dark Souls is unpalatable to me not because "Anybody that dislikes it is a filthy gaijin" its because it sets up some people as bad or good (in framing) when everybody turns evil and suffers for eternity no matter what except the player character because nobody would play that otherwise.
Search for immortality? Turn into a monster because of your folly.
Don't search for immortality? Monster it up because fuck you.
Try to fight the darkness? Turn evil and get killed by the player character anyway.
Revel in darkness? Probably get the most fun out of anybody else. If you RELISH in spreading suffering chaos and Darkness in Dark Souls (and most souls-borns), you're on the winning team even if you will die anyway.
Taken as a whole Dark Souls and its Souls-likes are about the triumph and supremacy of EVIL. Which I guess is beyond nihilism. Its a castigation of reality. Reminds me of Angels Egg which Dark souls cribs from at one point.
I like Sekiro however. It turns a sort of end-of-the-world scenario more humanistic. It doesn't need to tell a story about desperation, suffering, and struggle in the face of literally impossible odds without needing to make a universe whose base rules is that everybody dies for eternity.
This reminds me of music sub-genre invention every few years. >:( If I say "Like Dark Sun 1e with BROM art?", will I get hair-splitting for a forum page or twelve? I am kind of too old to care about such granular categorization nowadays.
8) Whatever, come up with definition out of the word-smithy and we might run with it until the next re-forging of words. Best of luck!
Quote from: Opaopajr on July 11, 2023, 12:04:05 AM
This reminds me of music sub-genre invention every few years. >:( If I say "Like Dark Sun 1e with BROM art?", will I get hair-splitting for a forum page or twelve? I am kind of too old to care about such granular categorization nowadays.
8) Whatever, come up with definition out of the word-smithy and we might run with it until the next re-forging of words. Best of luck!
Yes, genre are not neat boxes, but vague directions. Some great works mix and defy genres (this is the case for the "weird fiction" we all love).
About dark fantasy RPGs, here is something I wrote about mine.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2018/04/whats-so-dark-about-dark-fantasy-d.html
As you might know, Dark Fantasy Basic is my vision of how a dark D&D (BX/5e) would look like.
[...]
Here is a small list that may be useful if you're trying to add "dark" elements to ANY version of D&D, or other RPGs.
- Magic is dangerous! DFB treats magic as any other skills - roll against a DC (10+spell levelx2), but with a caveat - fail by 10 more and the spell might turn against you, drain your strength, cause mutations etc. Magic "fumbles" are the worst fumbles of the game. You can cast spells WAY above your level.. but that is asking for trouble!
- Nonhumans are mysterious! I made the player's guide human-only; nonhumans should mostly be monsters (and I plan to mention humanoid monsters in monster's books in the future), I think, although I'm not sure many people would enjoy D&D without demihumans (and, it seems, wouldn't work very well for your setting), so I added a few options.
If you're adding elves and dwarves to your dark fantasy games, better make them rare, mysterious and, preferably, utterly alien.
- Alignment isn't black and white! I prefer Chaos/Law instead of Good and Evil (well, good and evil are black and white after all), but I take a Moorcockian, not Andersonian, view of these forces. No good/evil axis on my game. Many evil foes think themselves to be good...
- The gods must be crazy! Deities are unreliable, and followers too. If a paladin "falls", he doesn't lose his powers, and chaotic deities can give you spells if you bargain for it.
- Sacrifice! I don't think being "deadly" is necessarily a mark of Dark Fantasy. This is a common misconception - dark fantasy heroes do not die like flies, nor must they be foolish or weak. I love DCC's funnel, but dark fantasy, IMO, is more about sacrifice than random death - so characters should have some CHOICE about fighting to the death. Basically, they can fight past 0 HP, but this is incredibly risky.
There are other things that can make a game of D&D "dark", but these aren't in the DFB Player's Guide:
- Monsters are strange! Each monster is unique. If you encounter an orc after another, or small groups of identical skeletons, they soon lose all mystery. Another way of keeping PCs guessing is making sure some monsters are alien, well-intentioned or simply dumb instead of downright evil. What's worse, some monsters may be guardians against greater evils.
- People are stranger! There is no clear distinction between monster and NPC. NPCs can be, literally or metaphorically, actual monsters, or even something in between - since everybody is prone to corruption of mind, body, and soul, you can never really trust anybody. Maybe not even yourself (see next item).
- Corruption! Madness, corruption, mutation... PCs face threats from within, not only from without. As Nietzsche famously said, "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.".
- The Dark! The Dark is an important element for, well, Dark D&D. In the earlier versions of the game, restricting lighting sources played and important part, and infravision/darkvision was less widespread, as you can see in OD&D (Underworld & Wilderness Adventures, page 9):
In the underworld some light source or an infravision spell must be used. Torches, lanterns and magic swords will illuminate the way, but they also allow monsters to "see" the users so that monsters will never be surprised unless coming through a door. Also, torches can be blown out by a strong gust of wind. Monsters are assumed to have permanent infravision as long as they are not serving some character.
So not only monsters have infravision but also they lose this ability if serving some characters, that are mostly restricted to sources of light that will call their foes attention and can be blown out by wind.
In Dark Fantasy Basic, PCs usually don't have this ability, since they are all human, but I've added it as a feat as an option if you want to play one. I also mention this:
"Carrying a light in the darkness will ruin most PCs' chances of stealth, but other characters in the party might be able to move around undetected."
Anyone care to define weird fantasy and how it might differ from dark fantasy?
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 11, 2023, 05:23:38 PM
Anyone care to define weird fantasy and how it might differ from dark fantasy?
Sure.
All of my fantasies are dark, but yours are weird. :P
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 11, 2023, 05:23:38 PM
Anyone care to define weird fantasy and how it might differ from dark fantasy?
I believe Eric defines it in his blog as the nexus point of science-fiction, horror, and fantasy, which suits me fine.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 10, 2023, 10:52:15 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 10, 2023, 09:01:40 PMI think you're conflating tragedy with sadism.
No Id say Dark Fantasy borders on sadism. As in enjoyment comes from the suffering of the characters. And explicitly suffering.
A Dark Fantasy with a happy ending or overcoming the odds in a meaningful way without everybody else suffering in hell for millenniums generally instantly loses its "Dark Fantasy" connotations. Ergo it is about suffering. It's not necessarily sexual pleasure, but our kicks come from how shit everybody else is.
I'm bilely fascinated with Dark Fantasy settings. I like reading up on them, and they indeed look cool, but a key aspect is HOPELESSNESS and suffering. Nihilism need not apply. I mean there is a meaning in Kingdom Death - Amusement for a malevolent deity.
"Bilely" is a word I'm going to have to use in future :P
Admittedly I know nothing about Kingdom Death other than what I saw in the artbook. $500 for a board game is far too rich for my blood.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 10, 2023, 10:52:15 PM
Edit: Dark Souls is unpalatable to me not because "Anybody that dislikes it is a filthy gaijin" its because it sets up some people as bad or good (in framing) when everybody turns evil and suffers for eternity no matter what except the player character because nobody would play that otherwise.
Yeah, I knew I phrased that poorly. I didn't mean any weebism by it. Just that the universe rejects the stereotypically Western/Christian conception of a universe in which good and evil are locked in internal struggle, with the tacit assumption that good will ultimately win.
Honestly, I'm not sure which side represents capital "E" Evil in the Dark Souls universe. The "Fire Team" is set up as the villains, but they also have most of the more heroic characters in their ranks. Meanwhile the "Dark Team" is cast as the virtuous rebels, but also includes a lot of the more reprehensible characters, including the big villain of Dark Souls 2. A lot of people think the fundamental tension is between stagnation and change, and that the games make a positive statement in favor of change, but I suspect that's their own internal bias talking. I'm kind of just citing my previous post at this point, but there's one of your examples I want to discuss.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 10, 2023, 10:52:15 PM
Try to fight the darkness? Turn evil and get killed by the player character anyway.
I actually really agree with you on this one. I think one of the reasons the Souls games get away with being so bleak is that they go out of their way to absolve the player of moral culpability in their worst atrocities. Most of the tragedies have already occurred before you arrive on the scene, and the hollowing plot device is very useful for casting most of your actions as mercy-kills. The games also give you a surprising number of opportunities to positively affect a character's story. You can save Solaire, rescue Karla, alleviate the Fair Lady's suffering, befriend Benhart, help Siegward fulfill his quest, unpetrify Rosabeth, have mercy on Priscilla, etc. etc. And they also make some of the more morally questionable boss fights optional, such as Priscilla again, the Old Demon King, Gwyndolin, and the Nameless King. Most of the mandatory bosses are either so corrupted or mad that they attack you without thought, or they have ideological reasons that make it inevitable that they stand in your way.
But every one of the games includes at least one fight that really doesn't need to be mandatory (in the logic of the story). Two I would cite from the first game are Quelaag and Sif. Both are intelligent creatures, who haven't gone mad, and have shaky reasons at best for standing in the way of the player's mission. Sif is the more egregious example, but the game tries to guilt you for killing both of them, which falls totally flat when there's literally no way to progress through the game without doing it. That always annoys me when games do it.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 10, 2023, 10:52:15 PM
I like Sekiro however. It turns a sort of end-of-the-world scenario more humanistic. It doesn't need to tell a story about desperation, suffering, and struggle in the face of literally impossible odds without needing to make a universe whose base rules is that everybody dies for eternity.
Sekiro is the latter-day Fromsoft game I'm least familiar with, but I can see how someone would find it the most human. I feel a bit similar about Bloodborne to the way you do about Dark Souls. A story about a bunch of selfish maniacs trying to turn themselves into alien gods doesn't hold much attraction for me. Same thing with Elden Ring. Dark souls has my favorite sub-stories in the series, but for grand narrative, I'd pick Demon's Souls. It still doesn't offer a final victory or have a very optimistic outlook on humanity, but it's quite a bit more morally straightforward.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 11, 2023, 08:10:13 AM
About dark fantasy RPGs, here is something I wrote about mine.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2018/04/whats-so-dark-about-dark-fantasy-d.html
As you might know, Dark Fantasy Basic is my vision of how a dark D&D (BX/5e) would look like.
[...]
Here is a small list that may be useful if you're trying to add "dark" elements to ANY version of D&D, or other RPGs...
I agree with you on most of these, but there's a couple of them I'd take issue with.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 11, 2023, 08:10:13 AM
- Magic is dangerous! DFB treats magic as any other skills - roll against a DC (10+spell levelx2), but with a caveat - fail by 10 more and the spell might turn against you, drain your strength, cause mutations etc. Magic "fumbles" are the worst fumbles of the game. You can cast spells WAY above your level.. but that is asking for trouble!
Not gonna lie; I hate this idea...at least in this manifestation of it. If every magical cast has a reasonable chance of either blowing you up or causing you to grow hideous deformities, I have a hard time believing any sane person would engage with it (EDIT: and all wizards being madmen gets kind of stale). More importantly, I've always found this mechanic to induce tone-breaking levels of silliness, and on a more meta level, I think it unduly punishes players for choosing to play a wizard. Some people will probably say that's the point, but I think that if you don't want players to be play wizards, you just shouldn't make it an option.
I agree with basic premise of "magic is dangerous", but that's my least favorite way to do it. I'd prefer a system that requires players to bargain with powerful entities for their magic, but that's hard to write rules for. Black Sword Hack takes the easy way out, and just makes players spend HP to cast spells. Kind of an underwhelming solution, but at least it doesn't break the tone.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 11, 2023, 08:10:13 AM
- Nonhumans are mysterious! I made the player's guide human-only; nonhumans should mostly be monsters (and I plan to mention humanoid monsters in monster's books in the future), I think, although I'm not sure many people would enjoy D&D without demihumans (and, it seems, wouldn't work very well for your setting), so I added a few options.
If you're adding elves and dwarves to your dark fantasy games, better make them rare, mysterious and, preferably, utterly alien.
- Monsters are strange! Each monster is unique. If you encounter an orc after another, or small groups of identical skeletons, they soon lose all mystery. Another way of keeping PCs guessing is making sure some monsters are alien, well-intentioned or simply dumb instead of downright evil. What's worse, some monsters may be guardians against greater evils.
Yeah both of these strike me as being more important to "weird fantasy" than "dark fantasy". More mystery and variety is always good, but I read Dark Fantasy as being a genre in which characters are more familiar with the strange than they are in something like Swords & Sorcery or straightforward horror.
EDIT: had a bit more of a think about it, and I think in Dark Fantasy, the fact that non-humans are may be more accessible than they are in other genres, doesn't mean they shouldn't be alien. In fact, everything should have it's alien level turned up a bit, so actually you're right after all.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 11, 2023, 08:10:13 AM
- Sacrifice! I don't think being "deadly" is necessarily a mark of Dark Fantasy. This is a common misconception - dark fantasy heroes do not die like flies, nor must they be foolish or weak. I love DCC's funnel, but dark fantasy, IMO, is more about sacrifice than random death - so characters should have some CHOICE about fighting to the death. Basically, they can fight past 0 HP, but this is incredibly risky.
Just calling this out because I think it's brilliant. Couldn't have put it better myself.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 11, 2023, 08:10:13 AM
- The Dark! The Dark is an important element for, well, Dark D&D. In the earlier versions of the game, restricting lighting sources played and important part, and infravision/darkvision was less widespread, as you can see in OD&D (Underworld & Wilderness Adventures, page 9):
In the underworld some light source or an infravision spell must be used. Torches, lanterns and magic swords will illuminate the way, but they also allow monsters to "see" the users so that monsters will never be surprised unless coming through a door. Also, torches can be blown out by a strong gust of wind. Monsters are assumed to have permanent infravision as long as they are not serving some character.
So not only monsters have infravision but also they lose this ability if serving some characters, that are mostly restricted to sources of light that will call their foes attention and can be blown out by wind.
In Dark Fantasy Basic, PCs usually don't have this ability, since they are all human, but I've added it as a feat as an option if you want to play one. I also mention this:
"Carrying a light in the darkness will ruin most PCs' chances of stealth, but other characters in the party might be able to move around undetected."
Mixed feelings on this one. Physical darkness definitely has its utilities in an RPG, but I find getting overly particular about light sources tends to grind the game to a halt. It's such an irritant that most tables I've been at quickly start handwaving it. I also don't think it necessarily fits a Dark Fantasy tone. Arguably one of the things that separates Dark Fantasy is that the protagonists often have an element of darkness inside them, so the ability to thrive in dark places is thematically appropriate. Put more simply, it's kind of hard to picture Elric or the Death Dealer fretting about running out of torches.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 11, 2023, 09:03:10 PM"Bilely" is a word I'm going to have to use in future :P
Admittedly I know nothing about Kingdom Death other than what I saw in the artbook. $500 for a board game is far too rich for my blood.
Same but I have the same sort of aesthetic fascination. It is too rich for my blood, but its very cool.
What I find very neat is that same hostile diety (The Scribe) actually looks the most simply human out of all the abominations from the setting. Hes just mundane human, yet he treats the things made most directly in his image (for every monster in Kingdom death takes a somewhat human image for itself) he makes exclusively to torment.
Image for interests sake (https://images.beastsofwar.com/2012/10/The-Scribe.jpg)
QuoteHonestly, I'm not sure which side represents capital "E" Evil in the Dark Souls universe.
Not capital E but that actually makes it worse. Characters who are willing to defile themselves and don't care about preserving anything or retaining their humanity or even anything else except pure power, generally end up as winners.
Aldrich for instance wanted power, and gets it no questions asked. In fact he gets it at the expense of one of the characters trying to do anything to stop the darkness.
If your a lowercase e bastard, and are out to hurt or defile or harm, the darkness is on your side.
Which makes the very nature of the universe capital E evil.
And Id agree with you about the game being about stagnation vs change if both still didn't end with you hopelessly murderfucked for all eternity. Thats why out of most dark fantasy settings I would posit it as the most explicitly sadistic.
The "Fire Team" are shown to be frauds and desiring power with no real goodness backing themselves up....But team dark is never virtuous. Whenever we actually see the darkness, it's just as horrible and mutating and miserable as team fire alleges. Maybe trying to keep the fire going has made it this way (again its never clear because the series is frustratingly vague).
There may be 1 or 2 team darkoes that might just not attack you on sight.
But if team dark was actually heroic and virtuous and the Dark was not a horrific nightmare then the game would not be a dark fantasy. The universe would be moving towards inexorable positive change. Instead, its a colonoscopy moving towards open heart surgery without anesthetic.
Or you can just keep the plot 100% vague with only implications so that way you never have to commit to any idea. I can often be for not-explaining things in fiction, but I hate the way Dark Souls does it.
QuoteThe games also give you a surprising number of opportunities to positively affect a character's story.
This only happens because said characters tend to be delusional, or have very specific small accomplishable things that they can be OK with as they wait their turn to be murderfucked forever. If they acted in any way "humanistic" they would be weeping in the corner because how fucked everything is.
Gwyndolin still gets eating butt first for instance and worn as a skinsuit. In fact some people suggest because of time dilation bullshit even if you killed Gwyn to spare him his fate, he would have been brought back to life by time fucker to get eaten alive and worn as a skinsuit. And this happens to him no matter what and because of time screwery this happens forever. This is what I mean by being lowercase e evil in Dark souls always pays off. If you're just evil, you will get rewarded with power to do more of it.
QuoteIt still doesn't offer a final victory or have a very optimistic outlook on humanity, but it's quite a bit more morally straightforward.
What pisses me off specifically isn't about a straightforward moral victory. Its that it often posits itself about something or makes commentary on people when it then just makes everybody suffer anyway. Edit: I guess specifically. It hides its sadism behind a mask of "commentary". The universe doesn't punish you for being good because its fucking metal, it does it because something something change, something something, embrace death, now get fucked for eternity anyway.
On a side note Darkest Dungeon 1 and 2 are very cool. Because they basically have the same events happen in both game but by framing and focusing on slightly different things they frame human struggle as either pointless in the face of cosmic horror (in 1) or valiant and great in the face of cosmic horror (in 2).
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 11, 2023, 11:46:43 PM
What pisses me off specifically isn't about a straightforward moral victory. Its that it often posits itself about something or makes commentary on people when it then just makes everybody suffer anyway. Edit: I guess specifically. It hides its sadism behind a mask of "commentary". The universe doesn't punish you for being good because its fucking metal, it does it because something something change, something something, embrace death, now get fucked for eternity anyway.
On a side note Darkest Dungeon 1 and 2 are very cool. Because they basically have the same events happen in both game but by framing and focusing on slightly different things they frame human struggle as either pointless in the face of cosmic horror (in 1) or valiant and great in the face of cosmic horror (in 2).
I would say the themes you enjoy about Darkest Dungeon are still latent in the other works. The purpose of dark fantasy is typically not to simply wallow in the evil and succumb to nihilism, but to look at how different characters react to grim circumstances where the happy ending or a final victory is out of their reach. Guts is not interesting because of his tortured past or brooding, he's interesting because he doesn't just roll over and die when fate demands it. He pushes forward where others would falter, and that's what makes him heroic and interesting. The same is arguably true of Dark Souls (though it's the player doing the perseverance, and the stakes are not well-conveyed). The Solomon Kane movie is a good example of a dark fantasy character arc in brief. Solomon Kane's soul is damned for his sins, but nevertheless he then seeks to do what is righteous. That is the mark of a righteous soul and it makes for a gripping tale.
The nihilism and evil in dark fantasy are best used to compare and contrast with the protagonist by embodying these ideas in characters. The protagonist is touched by evil and yet he/she perseveres - why? To choose anything other than death or simply moving with the currents of power in a dark fantasy setting is an act of hope. I think this hope is a pretty powerful foundation for the genre. The nihilistic worldview, by contrast, cannot be interesting because it is definitionally bereft of meaning. The protagonist is in a generally caught in a death struggle against that nihilism and self-destruction, even if it's not overt conflict or combat.
RPGs IMO struggle with dark fantasy because of the canonical statements they feel the need to make in their setting books. Whereas a book or movie or other medium would hold its cards a little closer to its chest, RPGs tend to opt for full transparency. In a movie or book, the concept of what fate awaits a character (damnation or whatever) is asserted by different characters, but it's almost never firsthand knowledge of the character or the audience. Even if the character operates under one belief, there's room for different reactions to bad news and different perspectives to clash. Whereas a book or movie would assert a character faces damnation upon death, an RPG for whatever reason feels the need to explain the mechanics of death, the cosmological significance, lay out a map of the planar realms the soul passes through, names all the major powers which might be encountered along the way...it's exhausting and it ends up essentially reinforcing the nihilistic outlook without possibility of hope (which means not much legitimate potential for anything other than despair). It's easy enough to fix this kind of problem by retconning it as GM so long as the setting is obscure, but if it's something like 40k then people generally know too much about the canonical lore to let you change anything (besides the grimdark thing has its own appeal, almost like a dark comedy).
I personally think RPGs should try to deliver their setting/world info a little more like they were transmitted to a character actually inhabiting the setting (not just for dark fantasy more broadly) simply because certainty is a lot less interesting. It becomes actively counter-productive once that certainty is not just held by the GM, but by the players.
Quote from: Old Aegidius on July 12, 2023, 05:06:23 AMI would say the themes you enjoy about Darkest Dungeon are still latent in the other works.
I enjoy both for different reasons, which I wrote up but was deleted by accident.
Dark Fantasy balances between cathartic meaning and self-indulgengent depravity.
Lets say there was a movie about a psychopath that caused the slow destruction of every person that ever tried to help them, and now has a successful career kidnapping childrens beloved pets and making torture snuff films out of them. And thats it. Anybody that tries to stop them fails, and the psychopath has a deep enjoyment and personal fullfillment. And it ends with them readiying another mark. Thats the movie. No other purpose, no point. Just a wallowing and validation in depravity.
I would posit most people would find that sick. When we watch dark stories we generally want some catharcisis out of it, even if its just of despair.
We want a dark story to have meaning to come out of it feeling like the darkness had a point, something to learn from, even if its just "It can always be worse". If a dark story has no catharcis, then its sick. It becomes about the enjoyement of depravity. It becomes a monument to Evil.
My issue with Dark Souls is it pretty much denies intentionally any form of catharcis. Even despair. By being vague and inconclusive we don't even get the main character collapse to the floor and weep and such. Or a shock of the realization of the futility of our actions. But we do know for certain that the future will not be kind or relieving.
To me Dark Souls is like that snuff film movie. Its there for the kicks and depravity. Even with that I may find an angle to it if it kept its mouth shut. But instead it wants to do some vague psuedo intelectual commentary about the nature of hope or some shit. Which it only half -heartedly gives a shit about. It exists as a self-serving excuse to justify why it wants to make its snuff film universe. Just shut the fuck up Dark Souls. Your "Too Cool" for answering questions or catharcis. Having heroic characters triumph in a non-futile way is for pussies. And your too smart and cool for that. And so it ends like a story with only depravity can end:
It hate-fucks itself into a conclusion where everything existed forever and then collapses into a bug crunch of futility and hate. And of course with ambiguity because again - if there even was a miserable ending there would be catharcis by virtue of conclusive ending. In its shallow attempts to be deep, it ends up being a monument to depravity and evil by accident. Which is why I hate its pretentious waffle.
I can't comment on Berserk much because the author died. I just hated its own pretentious twaddle about how "People shouldn't look for reasons for evil because then a evil monster will form out of that desire and will rape you". I personally think a story about fatalism and futility was destined to either end nihilistically or betraying its own principles.
This is where the "Shutting your mouth up" part comes in. If Dark fantasy just wants to be badass and just do some cool aesthetic and monsters - sure.
Kingdom Death: Monster is about badass monsters and tits. No further commentary on the nature of mankind or life. And I respect it for that. I generally find it more enjoyable for its capacity to just be metal instead of pretentious.
QuoteRPGs IMO struggle with dark fantasy because of the canonical statements they feel the need to make in their setting books.
Eh I disagree. Id say that a Dark Fantasy TRPG struggles with is it's near indistinguisable from a GM power trip.
My worst Dark Fantasy campaign Experience was in a game of World of Darkness. Our parties efforts where always futile, and our place in society was of constant mockery and scorn by superior elders that where unassailable but always looked down on us. The ST also played extremely hardball with XP and let us acumulate it but rarely ever spend it in the name of "Realism". The good where corrupted and failed, and the evil where rewarded and succeeded.
That there was a vaugue contradictory cannon about it there somewhere wasn't what made it not-work in my opinion.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 11, 2023, 09:03:10 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 11, 2023, 05:23:38 PM
Anyone care to define weird fantasy and how it might differ from dark fantasy?
I believe Eric defines it in his blog as the nexus point of science-fiction, horror, and fantasy, which suits me fine.
Yup, thanks for mentioning it!
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/03/my-weird-dark-twisted-fantasy.html
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h3OVQe9YLFk/YFYMbTif-AI/AAAAAAAADU4/K6-Po7HZsdMqcnrheLjKQ75CifENqSV4ACLcBGAsYHQ/s571/fantasy.png)
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 11, 2023, 09:33:38 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 11, 2023, 08:10:13 AM
About dark fantasy RPGs, here is something I wrote about mine.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2018/04/whats-so-dark-about-dark-fantasy-d.html
As you might know, Dark Fantasy Basic is my vision of how a dark D&D (BX/5e) would look like.
[...]
Here is a small list that may be useful if you're trying to add "dark" elements to ANY version of D&D, or other RPGs...
I agree with you on most of these, but there's a couple of them I'd take issue with.
You make some good points, let me address a couple:
Magic: can be dangerous in various ways, I agree; randomness is only one of them, others are corruption, madness and sacrifice. I address some of this in other book (Alternate Magic). One interesting treatment is in Carcosa with its horrific rituals. SotDL has soem interesting rules too. The random magic I got mostly from DCC. And there is always CoC, where magic necessarily makes you insane.
Darkness: I agree this is not an important part of DF literature, but I think it would be a relevant part of DF RPGs, making the world more dangerous and mysterious.
I agree with the "darkness inside" part. Maybe I should have added it to the book TBH; I did mention virtues and vices 9iand secrets, sins, etc.) in my first supplement (DF characters).
You might categorize my new campaign I will be starting next month as Dark Fantasy.
Set in the Hyborian Age of Conan. I got inspiration from REH's works, along with HPL's as well. They were in correspondence with each other, with HPL a mentor to REH. But anyway, let me get to some general notes on the setting:
Humans only: no elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, etc. Your race/ethnicity determines what ability score modifiers you have at character creation. Cimmerians get a +1 to Dex and Con, Hyrkanians get a +2 to Dex, Aquiloninas get a +1 Str and Cha. You get the idea. Same idea with available character classes: ethnicity determines what classes are available. From my previous example, Cimmerians can be Barbarians, Fighters, Thieves, Rangers (no spell ability), Clerics, Druids, Bounty Hunters, and Bandits. Because of their distrust of arcane magic, Cimmerians have no wizards, illusionists, etc. Aquilonians OTOH being more civilized and cosmopolitan have Fighters, Rangers (no spell ability), Knights, Clerics, Druids, Bounty Hunters, Bandits, Thieves, Magic-users, Illusionists, and Wild mages.
Gods: well, you do have the "normal" set of gods familiar to the setting: Mitra, Set, Ishtar, etc. BUT the Great Old Ones and Elder Gods of the Cthulhu Mythos exists as well. Depending on the kingdom, they're either secret cults all the way to open worship. Of the knows gods, some of them my be another aspect of the Great Old Ones or Elder Gods. One never knows...
Magic may have a price: I'm still up in the air about how I'm to handle this. I'm either going to use the DCC rules in this regard OR use of magic may cause a loss of Sanity based upon the level of the spell (1st level: 1 point, 2nd: 2 points, etc.) Which leads to...
Sanity: since the Mythos exists in my game world, I'm using the Sanity saving throw in Adv. Dark and Deep Swords of Cthulhu. In addition, I'm using Sanity points derived largely form CoC (Int +Wis x 5 / 2). If you fail your San save, San points are lost from either magic or encounters with Mythos creatures. Too much loss of San can result in either temporary of permanent phobias and other psychological damage. You can regain San from either rest of defeating Mythos threats.
more to come later...
Hmmm what else...
Monsters: IF it's creepy, crawly, weird...it's in their. Giant insects? Check. Black puddings? Check. Deep Ones? Check? There are prehistoric creatures in the deep dark regions. Serpent folk, Lizard men, Yaun Ti are tied together in some fashion. Fairy folk don't exists. No pixies, nixies, brownies, etc. Too high fantasy. This is very primal. Dark. In fact, the TV show Primal is a big influence.
Alignment: standard 9 point system. it's what my group is familiar with.
adventures: my campaign setting is basically a sandbox with a select group of pre-published modules thrown in. You can probably think of a few classic adventures that can easily fit in and I've included. Isle of Dread is definitely one. Dwellers of the Forbidden City is another. I was thinking Hidden Shrine of Tomoachan but my group is too familiar with it. Found a substitute: DCC's Curse of the Emerald Cobra, so that will be a blast. Here's a few others:
S1 Tomb of Horrors
S4 Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
WG4 The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun
Darkness at Nekemte
Dcc #15 Lost Tomb of the Sphinx Queen
DCC #23 the Sunken ziggurat
DCC #45 Malice of the Medusa
the list is by no means conclusive. Also, I've paid zero attention to character level in regards to the adventures in the campaign. It's truly random. If they stumble upon the Tomb of Horrors and they're only 1st to 3rd level...well that's on them. They won't know it's the Tomb of Horrors, so there's that...hehehe...
Oh the rules: I'm using Adv Labyrinth Lord with Adventures Dark and Deep Swords of Cthulhu, and Realms of Chaos for Labyrinth Lord. Plus a smattering of house rules I've come up with (sanity for one). I may lift rules from AD&D 1st Ed, DCC, etc. where I see fit...and if I don't? #1 rule of OSR: Rulings, not rules, and be consistent with them.
that's it for now.
Quote from: Melichor on July 08, 2023, 11:42:21 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 08, 2023, 06:58:53 PM
nihilistic
This is what defines Dark Fantasy. Life is meaningless and there is no hope.
"strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms" are just the Gonzo dial cranked up higher for the setting.
So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?
What about Mork Borg?
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:00:48 AM
Quote from: Melichor on July 08, 2023, 11:42:21 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on July 08, 2023, 06:58:53 PM
nihilistic
This is what defines Dark Fantasy. Life is meaningless and there is no hope.
"strange, magnificent landscapes, mad gods, doomed heroes, and fallen kingdoms" are just the Gonzo dial cranked up higher for the setting.
So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?
What about Mork Borg?
My thing is what about the rest of the Eternal Champion saga? Elric of Melnibonne' and Stormbringer is a direct hit, but what about Corum & Hawkmoon, etc.? Dark settings yes, doomed heroes yes, but nihilistic I would say they are not.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 10, 2023, 09:49:49 AM
I think I have one good example: Poul Anderson. Two of the three books mentioned in the appendix N are "three hearts and three lions" and " the broken sword".
Off topic, but if you like those two books, you might want to check out "The Knight" by Gene Wolfe. The setting is very similar to The Broken Sword, and the plot is almost explicitly a riff on 3 Hearts and 3 Lions. He even name-drops 3H3L at one point. I'm about halfway through and it's been quite good so far.
Quote from: Old Aegidius on July 09, 2023, 02:35:36 PM
I think part of the struggle with genres is a common idea that they're hierarchical - but they're more like clusters of common traits.
The real problem is that people will co-opt or misuse a term to fit their own agenda.
Adam West's Batman is dark fantasy because it has murderous villains.
etc ad nausium.
Then someone else reads that and propagates the stupid.
Then you have the usual cretins who stretch a term so out of proportion that it might as well be "Everything on Earth".
Storygamers being the posterchild for this.
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:00:48 AM
So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?
Doesn't Elric blow the Horn of Fate and bring a new world into being?
I dunno, I never thought of
Elric as dark. The Eternal Champion saga has an official happy ending, after all, though not for Elric personally ofc. Elric certainly is not set in a meaningless universe; that would be Conan.
I'd definitely put
Game of Thrones* in Dark Fantasy, with its crapsack world vibe & nihilistic cosmology. Maybe
The Witcher, though it seems very much on the light end of dark.
*
"You - you've been to the Other Side?"
"There IS no Other Side!"
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:00:48 AM
So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?
What about Mork Borg?
It's been a while since I looked at Elric/Stormbringer, but I remember it being essentially just a conversion of Runequest for the Young Kingdoms setting. I could be wrong about that, though. I would be curious to see an Elric game that was designed from the ground up for that purpose, but the only one I'm aware of is Mournblade, and sadly I don't read French. I've seen some buzz about it being published in English, but I've never been able to find it for sale.
I'd kind of written off Mork Borg as being too "down in the mud" and focused on gross-out. Just went and did another flip-through of the book though, and yeah you might be right. At least the splash-text for the setting does seem to match the kind of thing I was describing. I'm still a little iffy on it's merits as a game. maybe I'll check out some actual plays and see what it's like in practice.
Quote from: S'mon on July 15, 2023, 05:11:59 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:00:48 AM
So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?
Doesn't Elric blow the Horn of Fate and bring a new world into being?
I dunno, I never thought of Elric as dark. The Eternal Champion saga has an official happy ending, after all, though not for Elric personally ofc. Elric certainly is not set in a meaningless universe; that would be Conan.
I'd definitely put Game of Thrones* in Dark Fantasy, with its crapsack world vibe & nihilistic cosmology. Maybe The Witcher, though it seems very much on the light end of dark.
I still maintain that happy --or at least bittersweet-- endings are not mutually exclusive with dark fantasy. An example that popped into my mind in the last couple of days is "The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask". That's a game heavily about death, pain, loss, curses, and black magic. The villain wants to bring about the apocalypse because he used to be a friend of the gods and resents them for abandoning him. The hero seals the souls of the recently dead in masks so that he can impersonate them and take on their abilities. Pretty dark stuff, especially for a game meant for children, but it still has a happy ending.
The tone of the Witcher franchise varies a little bit between mediums. The short stories and the CDPR games engage a little more with the cosmic side than the main novels do, but I would broadly put it into whatever category you put "Game of Thrones". it's not quite as bleak, but it has the same heavy political bent, historical influence, and hard R-rated focus on political intrigue and war victimizing the innocent.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 14, 2023, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 10, 2023, 09:49:49 AM
I think I have one good example: Poul Anderson. Two of the three books mentioned in the appendix N are "three hearts and three lions" and " the broken sword".
Off topic, but if you like those two books, you might want to check out "The Knight" by Gene Wolfe. The setting is very similar to The Broken Sword, and the plot is almost explicitly a riff on 3 Hearts and 3 Lions. He even name-drops 3H3L at one point. I'm about halfway through and it's been quite good so far.
Thanks! Will check. I tried the New Sun stuff but it was a hard read for me at the time.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 15, 2023, 09:20:41 AM
Quote from: S'mon on July 15, 2023, 05:11:59 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:00:48 AM
So the Elric / Stormbringer RPGs would be a direct hit for Dark Fantasy?
Doesn't Elric blow the Horn of Fate and bring a new world into being?
I dunno, I never thought of Elric as dark. The Eternal Champion saga has an official happy ending, after all, though not for Elric personally ofc. Elric certainly is not set in a meaningless universe; that would be Conan.
I'd definitely put Game of Thrones* in Dark Fantasy, with its crapsack world vibe & nihilistic cosmology. Maybe The Witcher, though it seems very much on the light end of dark.
I still maintain that happy --or at least bittersweet-- endings are not mutually exclusive with dark fantasy.
I agree with FF here. Elric is dark fantasy because it is all about suffering; Elric literally can never find peace. Everyone suffers and dies, and if a new universe is born in the last page, the rest of the saga is still very much dark fantasy. Same for GoT and its silly ending. Conan is darkish, but Conan's losses are rarely comparable to Elric's. He often has a good time, seldom suffers significant defeat, and doesn't care for most of the friends and lovers he loses in the way.
"Black metal" is not defined by its lyrics. Likewise, "dark fantasy" is not about the ultimate meaning, but about tone and focus.
EDIT: BTW, I just wrote a review of the first
Kane book I've read. I'm pretty sure THIS is dark fantasy!
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/07/darkness-weaves-book-review-darkest.html
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 15, 2023, 10:31:56 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 14, 2023, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 10, 2023, 09:49:49 AM
I think I have one good example: Poul Anderson. Two of the three books mentioned in the appendix N are "three hearts and three lions" and " the broken sword".
Off topic, but if you like those two books, you might want to check out "The Knight" by Gene Wolfe. The setting is very similar to The Broken Sword, and the plot is almost explicitly a riff on 3 Hearts and 3 Lions. He even name-drops 3H3L at one point. I'm about halfway through and it's been quite good so far.
Thanks! Will check. I tried the New Sun stuff but it was a hard read for me at the time.
I bounced off of "Shadow of the Torturer", too. It was kind of the same experience I had with "Gormenghast". Objectively, I can step back and see it's very good prose, but I wasn't having fun reading it, and it didn't seem to be going anywhere. "The Knight" is much quicker moving and more direct.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 15, 2023, 12:09:34 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 15, 2023, 10:31:56 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 14, 2023, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on July 10, 2023, 09:49:49 AM
I think I have one good example: Poul Anderson. Two of the three books mentioned in the appendix N are "three hearts and three lions" and " the broken sword".
Off topic, but if you like those two books, you might want to check out "The Knight" by Gene Wolfe. The setting is very similar to The Broken Sword, and the plot is almost explicitly a riff on 3 Hearts and 3 Lions. He even name-drops 3H3L at one point. I'm about halfway through and it's been quite good so far.
Thanks! Will check. I tried the New Sun stuff but it was a hard read for me at the time.
I bounced off of "Shadow of the Torturer", too. It was kind of the same experience I had with "Gormenghast". Objectively, I can step back and see it's very good prose, but I wasn't having fun reading it, and it didn't seem to be going anywhere. "The Knight" is much quicker moving and more direct.
This was my exact expirence with Book of the New Sun as well. Ill check out The Knight too. Yhough currently im reading through the Elric saga because i got the new edititions and the Citidel of Forgotten Myths. To me this is tonally what i think of as dark fantasy.
Book of the New Sun is definitely Dark. But mostly Weird. :D