Default Dungeon Assumptions

jhkim · June 30, 2017, 12:31:02 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;972202People are strange. What they need to establish as the bare minimum floor for verisimilitude to function, rarely makes a lot of sense. In my case, I can deal with not worrying where the dwarves hid their latrines, but I want the damn dwarves to have been there at some point to dig the tunnels that are now getting a little crazy.

I suppose for other people, my thin rationalization is either too thin to even register, or in some cases an uncanny valley. Why'd you go put in a reason for A, B, C, then ignore the rest of the pertinent factors?

Agreed that it's strange and very subjective what holes we accept.

I think it is more of an uncanny valley for me. I would prefer that it just be left undefined who built the dungeon rather than implying a dwarven residence. In particular, if it is described as a dwarven residence, then I'd want the PC's to be able to draw conclusions based on that. i.e. "OK, we've found the dining hall. There should be kitchens nearby with vents for cooking."

Black Vulmea · June 30, 2017, 12:57:49 PM

Quote from: Voros;972220Just need to be into comics.

Yeah, I read my cousin's R Crumb and Vaughn Bodé comix when I was a kid - a lot of it went over my head but the art was amazing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;972046The physical form of typical D&D dungeons look nothing like ancient tombs, ruins, or other historical underground complexes.

Right, dungeons in a fantasy land of dragons and wizards must conform to precise dimensions of Nottingham's Castle Rock.

Quote from: Dumarest;971681I don't really care as long as the adventure is fun.

You are not of The Body! Landru, help us!

Dumarest · June 30, 2017, 01:22:45 PM

Quote from: Black Vulmea;972335You are not of The Body! Landru, help us!

I've always liked that episode.

Spock: How often mankind has wished for a world as peaceful and secure as the one Landru provided.
Kirk: Yes. And we never got it. Just lucky, I guess.

RPGPundit · July 02, 2017, 02:04:10 AM

Quote from: Azraele;972108I think its important to realize that "logical" is relative to the setting. For example, I wouldn't call someone devoting their life to magic in our world's history "logical",

Well, a large number of very significant people in our world's history did so.

Quotebut its perfectly reasonable to do so in classic D&D. Similarly, though giant underground complexes aren't a staple of our world's history (although as Black Vulmea pointed out, they DO exist)

They do, but almost never look like a D&D dungeon.

Quotethe mechanics of a mystical fantasy universe could make their construction perfectly logical.

In fantasy you can always say "a crazy wizard did it", but if you ignore that particular reason there's still a lot of illogical elements to the physical structure of how most dungeons look like.

Voros · July 02, 2017, 02:15:12 AM

I read somewhere that the simple square design of most dungeon corridors and rooms would lead to collapse. Not being even remotely qualified to address that I assume it is true?

Just Another Snake Cult · July 02, 2017, 02:27:21 AM

Jason Cone's incredible essay The Dungeon as Mythic Underworld is what really "Sold" the concept of Old School megadungeons to me and allowed me to see that they could be just as sublime as they could be ridiculous.

arminius · July 02, 2017, 10:18:54 AM

I always took the Orc lairs of the Hobbit, and Moria in Lord of the Rings, as the prototypical dungeons.

Voros · July 03, 2017, 01:29:08 AM

Can't remember, aren't they goblins in The Hobbit, not orcs?

Black Vulmea · July 03, 2017, 03:31:58 AM

Quote from: Voros;972740Can't remember, aren't they goblins in The Hobbit, not orcs?

Same fucking thing, dumbass.

Voros · July 03, 2017, 04:14:30 AM

Sorry manchild did you spill your milk or something?

David Johansen · July 03, 2017, 09:46:45 AM

Tolkien mentions that Bilbo is wrong when he thinks a tunnel he's in is too low for really big goblins, because the orcs go around bent over with their hands on the ground.

Chainsaw · July 03, 2017, 03:10:44 PM

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;972622Jason Cone's incredible essay The Dungeon as Mythic Underworld is what really "Sold" the concept of Old School megadungeons to me and allowed me to see that they could be just as sublime as they could be ridiculous.

Yes, I agree. Great essay. Influences how I think about my persistent megadungeon, which I run at Gary Con, NTRPG Con and GameHole.

Dumarest · July 03, 2017, 03:13:28 PM

Goblins and orcs are the same thing in Tolkien and anyone who doesn't remember that is an abomination!

RPGPundit · July 06, 2017, 08:54:53 PM

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;972622Jason Cone's incredible essay The Dungeon as Mythic Underworld is what really "Sold" the concept of Old School megadungeons to me and allowed me to see that they could be just as sublime as they could be ridiculous.

I never read that, but in Arrows of Indra, that's literally true. The Patala Underworld is treated as a world-spanning megadungeon leading all the way down to the entrance to hell.

Skarg · July 07, 2017, 11:36:24 PM

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;972622Jason Cone's incredible essay The Dungeon as Mythic Underworld is what really "Sold" the concept of Old School megadungeons to me and allowed me to see that they could be just as sublime as they could be ridiculous.

The version on page 22 of this: http://www.grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf or another version?