Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1101403Even Tekumel?

Tekumel is inspired by, not a supposed historically accurate setting.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101412Tekumel is inspired by, not a supposed historically accurate setting.

OK. I missed that you were making distinction re settings.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1101418OK. I missed that you were making distinction re settings.

Probably my fault. Yes, I'm making a distinction between fantasy settings inspired by X and world books that pretend to be historically accurate. GURPS and the d20 (forgot the publisher) ones pretend to be the latter while rewriting stuff to stick to the noble savage myth.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101424Probably my fault. Yes, I'm making a distinction between fantasy settings inspired by X and world books that pretend to be historically accurate. GURPS and the d20 (forgot the publisher) ones pretend to be the latter while rewriting stuff to stick to the noble savage myth.

Did you feel like GURPS Aztecs was revisionist toward the noble savage myth? From my recollection, it was as accurate as I understood things, and it didn't shy away from human sacrifice, for example. Heck, there's a human sacrifice on the cover.

Personally, I'm doubtful about mixing too much historical realities and gaming. Most games gloss over the more grim realities of the past -- like disease, torture, and slavery. That's just as true for European history as elsewhere. In my experience, there's good reason for this - players don't go for it, even if they're well versed in the real history. I think a game can introduce overlooked aspects of history, but trying to go into fully detailed historical reality turns players off.

Quote from: jhkim;1101432Did you feel like GURPS Aztecs was revisionist toward the noble savage myth? From my recollection, it was as accurate as I understood things, and it didn't shy away from human sacrifice, for example. Heck, there's a human sacrifice on the cover.

Personally, I'm doubtful about mixing too much historical realities and gaming. Most games gloss over the more grim realities of the past -- like disease, torture, and slavery. That's just as true for European history as elsewhere. In my experience, there's good reason for this - players don't go for it, even if they're well versed in the real history. I think a game can introduce overlooked aspects of history, but trying to go into fully detailed historical reality turns players off.

Yes I think they did.

If your world book pretends to be historically accurate then I want the grim reality. It should be up to me as a GM to choose what to include and what not to include.

My response to demands to Decolonise me and my stuff:



I actually have this as a plaque on my office wall at work, along with a poster "The British Navy Guards the Freedom of Us All."

I swing center left, just to get that out there. So, just from the op, it looks like someone really wants more nuance. Well, hit up some good old fashioned sword and sorcery, it has all the shades of gray that anyone can want.

How would you do a RPG where the "good guys" were doing the ritual sacrifices?

To the Mayan/Aztec hero, the gods need the blood and without the gods, our nation (and perhaps the world) falls into oblivion.

Especially in a fantasy RPG where the gods are literally present, demanding sacrifice in exchange for crops.

That's the kind of stuff I like in grim Swords & Sorcery settings!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1101477How would you do a RPG where the "good guys" were doing the ritual sacrifices?

To the Mayan/Aztec hero, the gods need the blood and without the gods, our nation (and perhaps the world) falls into oblivion.

Especially in a fantasy RPG where the gods are literally present, demanding sacrifice in exchange for crops.

That's the kind of stuff I like in grim Swords & Sorcery settings!

The way that I would do it is to make the human sacrifice voluntary and only for special ceremonies and otherwise sacrificing gold, animals etc for day to day worship.

Quote from: Shasarak;1101479The way that I would do it is to make the human sacrifice voluntary and only for special ceremonies and otherwise sacrificing gold, animals etc for day to day worship.

Murder is so much better when you brainwash your victims from an early age to like it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1101477How would you do a RPG where the "good guys" were doing the ritual sacrifices?

To the Mayan/Aztec hero, the gods need the blood and without the gods, our nation (and perhaps the world) falls into oblivion.

Especially in a fantasy RPG where the gods are literally present, demanding sacrifice in exchange for crops.

That's the kind of stuff I like in grim Swords & Sorcery settings!

I had a HarnMaster character for a while who was an Agrikan priest - who is one of the more evil gods in the Harn pantheon - a warlike god, comparable to Ares in the Greek pantheon in some ways. He was dark, but he was very civic-minded, on the side of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. He didn't do classical human sacrifice, but he did do a witch hunt - finding a scapegoat who was probably innocent and publicly torturing them to raise the town's spirits.

I think I did pretty well to pitch him as a strong defender of the overall good and the rule of law. It helped that we were set in the Kingdom of Rethem, which has Agrik as one of its major gods. Thus, he really was the town priest and took his civic duty seriously.

Quote from: Pat;1101486Murder is so much better when you brainwash your victims from an early age to like it.

The whole of Christianity is based on the concept of self sacrifice.  It seems like a double standard to accuse another culture of murder in the same situation.

Quote from: Shasarak;1101488The whole of Christianity is based on the concept of self sacrifice.  It seems like a double standard to accuse another culture of murder in the same situation.

Wait a minute, where exactly does it say you should let the priest kill you to please God?

I know exactly from where certain Jewish/Christian things come, and some do come from human sacrifice and cannibalism and some come from the prohibition of it. But I can't recall anywhere in the OT or the NT where you're supposed to let the priest kill you.

I'm afraid your conflating self sacrifice with human sacrifice, the latter IS murder.

Quote from: Shasarak;1101488The whole of Christianity is based on the concept of self sacrifice.  It seems like a double standard to accuse another culture of murder in the same situation.

It does not however regard it as a sin to refuse to be murdered (in fact self defense and defense of others is regarded as heroic). Indeed, the entire point of the sacrifice of Isaac story in the Old Testament was to refute the use of human/child sacrifice (prevalent in the surrounding cultures) as something wholey unacceptable to God.

Jesus took it one step further saying "I, God, am going to die in your place for your sins. I am the Final Sacrifice, once and for all." The entire point of Christianity is that God made the ultimate sacrifice for us and doesn't need any sacrifice from us. All He asked for was that we actually treat each other with love.

Seriously, you can't get much more antithetical to the Aztecs system of morality/cosmology than Christianity.

Quote from: Chris24601;1101493It does not however regard it as a sin to refuse to be murdered (in fact self defense and defense of others is regarded as heroic). Indeed, the entire point of the sacrifice of Isaac story in the Old Testament was to refute the use of human/child sacrifice (prevalent in the surrounding cultures) as something wholey unacceptable to God.

Jesus took it one step further saying "I, God, am going to die in your place for your sins. I am the Final Sacrifice, once and for all." The entire point of Christianity is that God made the ultimate sacrifice for us and doesn't need any sacrifice from us. All He asked for was that we actually treat each other with love.

Seriously, you can't get much more antithetical to the Aztecs system of morality/cosmology than Christianity.

Firstly, I am not comparing Christianity to the Aztecs, that never happened.

I am saying that voluntary human sacrifice is not the same as murder.  As an example we dont go around saying that Jesus was murdered or that he was brain washed.