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So who else thinks this is basically the most awesome Star Trek RPG ever made?

Noble Knight was running a sale on all the books, so I finally replaced my lost copies of the corebooks for a mere $40 total.

Looking forward to reading them again.

Honestly? I like my LUG books better. I looked at both very very carefully. Then decided on buying this one--I like the way templates work, for races and training without being hard coded classes.


Just me.

Plus its mechanics work similarly to things I've written.


Not that Decipher dn't have some great stuff mind you. Just that I liked these better :D

I like Decipher's game, but...there's just something about FASA's game that draws me to it much more.

LUG had a lifepath system, right?

Or am I just crazy?

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;385744LUG had a lifepath system, right?

Or am I just crazy?

Depends on what you mean. It doesn't have random stuff like say Traveller, it does have choices of things you do that you learn from.

Quote from: Silverlion;385745Depends on what you mean. It doesn't have random stuff like say Traveller, it does have choices of things you do that you learn from.

Hm.

I played it once YEARS ago...and other than the GM being the worst GM I have ever played under, ever, in my entire life...I remember that my guy (the Captain) served a tour of duty on a Klingon vessel...I just don't remember HOW that came about.

Production values are great, system is solid enough, organization is goddamned terrible. The character creation process was designed by a sadist.

But I own them and I'm glad I do.

I was never impressed with it.

When I did my GURPS version - I started to update the FASA lifepath character generation system and make it compatible with GURPS.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;385747Production values are great, system is solid enough, organization is goddamned terrible. The character creation process was designed by a sadist.

But I own them and I'm glad I do.

I'll give you the organization was spotty, but I love the writing.  I've read so few books that filled my head with so many ideas.

I have neither the cipher nor the private key for Star Trek to do so.

Quote from: J Arcane;385738So who else thinks this is basically the most awesome Star Trek RPG ever made?

Personally, I'd say it suffers from the same problem that most licensed RPGs do. People who want to play in the featured setting usually know it as well as the authors of the RPG. Why would they buy it? Why wouldn't I use one of the bazillion RPG systems out there and adapt it for my take on Star Trek?

Quote from: 1of3;385792Why would they buy it? Why wouldn't I use one of the bazillion RPG systems out there and adapt it for my take on Star Trek?

Time.  Why would I spend 10-100 hours statting everything when I could spend a bit of money to get it?

Quote from: 1of3;385792Personally, I'd say it suffers from the same problem that most licensed RPGs do. People who want to play in the featured setting usually know it as well as the authors of the RPG. Why would they buy it? Why wouldn't I use one of the bazillion RPG systems out there and adapt it for my take on Star Trek?

Because I don't want to spent countless hours of my time shoehorning something into an existing system, or printing out reams of internet material, that none of my players will play anyway because it's not bound in an "official book" from somewhere?

Because an entire volume of house rules is a little much to expect people you game with online to absorb just to play an IRC or a PbP game?

Because it's a well written game that provides considerable inspiration, information, and ideas as to how one might run the game, and has been designed with a professional rigor that ensures it covers things more thoroughly and competently than some half-assed houserules are likely to without a lot more work?

Why does anyone buy any game when they could just write their own?  Because maybe they don't fucking want to write their own?  Because they have lives of their own outside of gaming and don't live in their mother's basement on unemployment spending 24 hours a day writing houserule supplements they'll never play?  

Ask a stupid question . . .

I think the GM's Guide to Decipher's system is one of the finest books ever written for RPGs. You could use it for a Star Trek game using any game system, even GURPS.

The player's guide doesn't even read like it was written by the same people. It is a disorganized mess. If you can "decipher" :hatsoff: the player's book, there is a pretty good system in there.

That said, I much prefer the writing style found in the ICON system. The ICON books have better fluff and are written in a much more entertaining way than the Decipher books.

Both systems have some issues; ICON, for example, just has way too many skills.

FASA Trek had one of the most enjoyable character creation systems of any RPG that I have read or played. Unfortunately, the actual gameplay of the game itself doesn't quite live up to the career path fun found when creating a Starfleet officer.

Alright, I see your point. It's just this game is quite terrible.

They have stats for different species? Why? Obviously it doesn't matter if you are Klingon or a Borg drone. Kirk will beat you up, because he is the captain. Being a Klingon PC doesn't make you more tough. It's a license to take more of a beating (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect).

The game has statistics for Star Ships. Why? At most you would need to measure whether the alien ship is more or less advanced than the Enterprise. Even that doesn't work. Sometimes a single Dominion ship is a threat, sometimes the Defiant will blow them up by the dozen.

There is a list of subspace phenomena in the Narrator's Guide. Funny. It's just that all of those phenomena were only encountered in a single episode, because they were tailored as that episode's plot device. The correct rule would have been: "Here is a random table to roll up your subspace phenomenon's name. If you have had the same result in a previous session, roll again. NEVER USE THE SAME NAME TWICE. The phenomenon works however you want it to work." Because that's how these things behave on the show.

It should have adressed how holodeck episodes work. It should have adressed the difference between a myth and a story in Star Trek. All stuff like that.

The game in question is no game of Star Trek. It's D&D in Starfleet uniforms!

Quote from: 1of3;385801The game in question is no game of Star Trek. It's D&D in Starfleet uniforms!

What planet are you posting this from?

It would be easier to play Netrek, if all one wanted was a hack and slash version of Star Trek.

Quote from: ggroy;385803It would be easier to play Netrek, if all one wanted was a hack and slash version of Star Trek.

It's a good thing that's not what DecTrek is, now isn't it?

Quote from: J Arcane;385805It's a good thing that's not what DecTrek is, now isn't it?

Was referring to 1of3's last quote, "It's D&D in Starfleet uniforms!".

Netrek was amusing for its time during the 1990's.

Quote from: ggroy;385806Was referring to 1of3's last quote, "It's D&D in Starfleet uniforms!".

Netrek was amusing for its time during the 1990's.

Indeed it was.  I've actually played the original PLATO version that inspired the others, and I think I played it for a bit on Linux where it still survives in some fashion.  

I just wanted to point out that 1of3's post was a load of stupid bollocks, and with a whiff of storygaming bollocks to it, to boot.

Quote from: J Arcane;385809I just wanted to point out that 1of3's post was a load of stupid bollocks, and with a whiff of storygaming bollocks to it, to boot.

Yeah. It earned my complete "WTF" reaction for the week. Here on the RPGsite, that is quite the achievement.

I found the Last Unicorn Games ICON Star Trek RPG to be superior.

I did not appreciate the model of making people pay for separate books for each series, especially as they were rather uneven in quality.

Quote from: 1of3;385801The game in question is no game of Star Trek. It's D&D in Starfleet uniforms!

The remark doesn't really compute with me. When I think "Star Trek", I think Original Series, Kirk, Spok, Bones and Co. USS Enterprise, Star Date blablablah.

Fundamentally, Star Trek isn't as far apart from (O)D&D as one would think. Replace the Keep by a Starship, a Wilderness hex map by the outer limits of a Quadrant, Elves for Vulcans and Orcs for Klingons, Henchmen and mercenaries for Crew, and you're getting seriously close, to me. It's still very much about exploration.

Yeah, I've played in no less than three Decipher Trek campaigns. At no point did it remotely resemble "D&D Trek." Not only did we not play it as such, I saw nothing in the rules implying one should. So I don't get that claim either.

Quote from: PaladinCA;385802What planet are you posting this from?

Germaica Prime.

I just read their TNG book recently and I think I liked the system just fine. I like the sorta-lifepath system for characters mostly, but I'm an old Traveller softie.

As to why a licensed product with its own rules as opposed to a generic system - you can tailor the system to the setting. I use GURPS all the time, but sometimes it really doesn't "scale" right for some settings (always ending up with over-evolved super-characters). For Star Trek, in particular, I liked that the characters would be pretty well equally balanced no matter what branch of service they went through.

I've been wondering if my FfvB Bulletin Board Management plug-in would work for ignoring a user... and now I have the perfect subject.

So Mr. Arcane, what makes you like the Decipher books over the LUG ones?

Quote from: jdurall;385836I've been wondering if my FfvB Bulletin Board Management plug-in would work for ignoring a user... and now I have the perfect subject.

It works great, actually.

Quote from: Silverlion;385842So Mr. Arcane, what makes you like the Decipher books over the LUG ones?

The system, while a bit disorganized, is pretty straight forward to learn for folks familiar with D20, since the basic mechanics are pretty much D20 with smaller numbers and the die changed to 2d6.  

The writing of the books, however, is what really sold me most.  Matt Colville and the rest of the crew and Decipher produced a book that is just chock full of inspiration.  I can't think of any book I've ever read that filled my head with so many ideas by the end of it, that I had to keep a notebook with me because the flood of game ideas never ceased.  

Normally I'll read a game, and even if I like it and think the ideas are cool, I'm often at a loss as to what to actually do with it, and it takes some amount of brainstorming to come up with runnable ideas.  but the DecTrek books the ideas just seemed to roll off the page.  It's the only game I've ever been unequivocally excited about running as a GM, something I generally don't do.

And I also really like the fact that it covers the whole series, and presents a core flexible enough to take on any of the periods in the setting without having to shell out for series specific sourcebooks.  The sourcebooks similarly focus on treating it like a single universe, and so cover things unilaterally.

To me, the LUG approach of treating each series as it's own game makes about as much sense as doing a Star Wars game where you have to buy separate books for the material in each movie.  The only one that stands out as appreciably different enough is the original series, but it's still not so different that it needs it's own game just to cover it.  

DecTrek feels like I could get away with only ever buying the two corebooks, and in fact I never did, though I've heard the sourcebooks are mostly pretty damn good.

Quote from: J Arcane;385848The system, while a bit disorganized, is pretty straight forward to learn for folks familiar with D20, since the basic mechanics are pretty much D20 with smaller numbers and the die changed to 2d6.

Is it similar to the Decipher LotR ruleset?  (I don't have the DecTrek books).

From skimming over my copy of the Decipher LotR core book, is does look like a d20 style system with smaller target numbers and the die change to 2d6.

Quote from: ggroy;385849Is it similar to the Decipher LotR ruleset?  (I don't have the DecTrek books).

From skimming over my copy of the Decipher LotR core book, is does look like a d20 style system with smaller target numbers and the die change to 2d6.

It is fairly similar, and shares the same basic mechanics.

I agree with J Arcane about having one system to cover all eras of play. That is certainly a major shortcoming of ICON. Plus we never got Voyager or Enterprise, not that we actually need them.

I would like to have seen Tellerites and Andorians placed into the DEC Player's Guide rather than a couple of the Voyager specific races that no one will want to play that much.

Like I said. Both of those Star Trek games have their good and bad points.

Quote from: PaladinCA;385869I would like to have seen Tellerites and Andorians placed into the DEC Player's Guide rather than a couple of the Voyager specific races that no one will want to play that much.

I remember talking to one of the developers at Decipher when I was playtesting and writing for their LotR line, and they explained that to the best of their understanding, part of the requirement for the license was that the books support all of the eras/shows equally.

Quote from: jdurall;385879I remember talking to one of the developers at Decipher when I was playtesting and writing for their LotR line, and they explained that to the best of their understanding, part of the requirement for the license was that the books support all of the eras/shows equally.

Ah, well we still could have used Andorians at the very least.

Quote from: Benoist;385820The remark doesn't really compute with me. When I think "Star Trek", I think Original Series, Kirk, Spok, Bones and Co. USS Enterprise, Star Date blablablah.

You, see. I think of TNG.

The series even requires the characters not to be heroes. Not that they are anti-heroes or villains. They are not meant to be exceptional individuals, they are typical representatives of a better humankind. Whatever the characters do or achieve on the grand scale is not attributed to them, but to how humanity has evolved.

At most you may be part of an exceptional crew, but that's it.

That's as different from D&D as you can get.

Quote from: 1of3;385906You, see. I think of TNG.

The series even requires the characters not to be heroes. Not that they are anti-heroes or villains. They are not meant to be exceptional individuals, they are typical representatives of a better humankind. Whatever the characters do or achieve on the grand scale is not attributed to them, but to how humanity has evolved.

At most you may be part of an exceptional crew, but that's it.

That's as different from D&D as you can get.

Huh? :huhsign:

First, you quote my first sentence, without answering the actual points that followed it.
Second your argument... doesn't make any fucking sense to me. Sorry.

But hey. You seem pretty sure of yourself. It's okay.

I've played in 2 lengthy Star Trek campaigns, and ran a few one-shots, All using the FASA system. I've skimmed through the LUG books I own, but would still use FASA.

FASA is easier for getting new players into the game (which I managed rather well), and character creation is genuinely useful and 'realistic'. It did elicit one remark from my players "they teach you a lot of crap at Star Fleet Academy".

Should I? SHOULD I?

Quote from: 1of3;385801Alright, I see your point. It's just this game is quite terrible.

Though I think 1of3 may have gone a bit hyperbolic on their last point, I think their questions are quite valid and have so far been unaddressed. So for efficiency, I ask them again here, only this time using BULLET POINTS!

• Why have stats for different species?
• Why have stats for starships?
• Why have a list of subspace phenomena separate from their function as a plot device?

Because see, a lot of RPGs tend to throw in lots of lists of things and numbers, and the feel of Star Trek is not captured in these. So I'm wondering what the Decipher books did that actually caught the feel of Star Trek, because all I got was a book that actively insulted my intelligence with its poor organization and lack of clarity.

Take your forgey bollocks to some other thread please.

We get it, you think actually having stats for things in a Trek RPG are bad.

Ok, go play Primetime Adventures.

I think clearly you need stats for starships, which are elements in the show as much as characters.  

One thing I'd agree with, though, is that I don't agree about having standard packages for races.  Since the original series, Star Trek aliens have been one-offs and/or unique individuals like Data, half-breeds like Spock or Troi, etc.  New alien races are introduced every other episode. So rather than having specific rules for each race, and only being allowed to make a character from one of the designated races, I think the game should just have rules for designing your own alien character.  

Games like this include Star Wars D6, Nexus, and the Angel RPG as well as generic sets like GURPS or the HERO System.

Quote from: CRKrueger;386036Ok, go play Primetime Adventures.

Or you could download and play Where No Man Has Gone Before (http://69.51.142.222/trek/), a Microlite 20 game that really gets the feel of the original series in a way that Decipher, and LUG, and even FASA never quite got right.  And it's even based on the d20 system for the sake of familiarity and functional adaptation.

And, to the point, no, I didn't like the Decipher Trek books, or the LUG books for that matter.  I liked the FASA series, but that was mostly because of the background and setting material they produced -- the mechanics always eventually stuck in my craw.

Quote from: J Arcane;385738Noble Knight was running a sale on all the books, so I finally replaced my lost copies of the corebooks for a mere $40 total.

Looking forward to reading them again.

Not to play them?  It all comes into focus...

!i!

Quote from: CRKrueger;386036Ok, go play Primetime Adventures.

I actually tried that for Star Trek. While it's fine game (and I had much fun playing other campaigns with it), its main strength is character drama, which isn't that central to Star Trek. Might be the reason why Star Trek is not mentioned in the PtA rule book.

Quote from: jhkim;386040I think clearly you need stats for starships, which are elements in the show as much as characters.  

One thing I'd agree with, though, is that I don't agree about having standard packages for races.  Since the original series, Star Trek aliens have been one-offs and/or unique individuals like Data, half-breeds like Spock or Troi, etc.  New alien races are introduced every other episode. So rather than having specific rules for each race, and only being allowed to make a character from one of the designated races, I think the game should just have rules for designing your own alien character.  

Games like this include Star Wars D6, Nexus, and the Angel RPG as well as generic sets like GURPS or the HERO System.

I don't agree with that interpretation at all, in fact I think it's patently false.  There are plenty of established races in the ST universe, with many examples of each, and it makes sense to provide stats for players who wish to play them accurately.  

"Create your own alien" rules in chargen however, I can get behind, just as a supplement to the established races, much in the way Star Trek Online does it.  You can be one of these, or you can roll your own.  The idea that it should only be the latter is as ridiculous as limiting it to only written races (something I wouldn't do as a GM anyway).

Quote from: J Arcane;386047I don't agree with that interpretation at all, in fact I think it's patently false.  There are plenty of established races in the ST universe, with many examples of each, and it makes sense to provide stats for players who wish to play them accurately.  

"Create your own alien" rules in chargen however, I can get behind, just as a supplement to the established races, much in the way Star Trek Online does it.  You can be one of these, or you can roll your own.  The idea that it should only be the latter is as ridiculous as limiting it to only written races (something I wouldn't do as a GM anyway).

But these aren't exclusive.  I didn't mean that the rule book shouldn't have any material about Vulcans or Klingons.  I am saying that Vulcan and Klingon characters should be written up as examples of the rules for alien characters rather than as special-case rules.

Quote from: jhkim;386089But these aren't exclusive.  I didn't mean that the rule book shouldn't have any material about Vulcans or Klingons.  I am saying that Vulcan and Klingon characters should be written up as examples of the rules for alien characters rather than as special-case rules.

I don't see how giving stats for species that appear dozens of times in the source material is a "special-case rule" anymore than having stats for Elves in D&D or LOTR is.

That's a ridiculous argument on it's face, and seems to come more from this idiotic forum geek notion I have so often seen that Star Trek is somehow "special" in the way it needs to be handled as an RPG, something I've never seen evidence of in actual play.

Quote from: J Arcane;386099I don't see how giving stats for species that appear dozens of times in the source material is a "special-case rule" anymore than having stats for Elves in D&D or LOTR is.

That's a ridiculous argument on it's face, and seems to come more from this idiotic forum geek notion I have so often seen that Star Trek is somehow "special" in the way it needs to be handled as an RPG, something I've never seen evidence of in actual play.

There is a significant difference here.  Middle Earth has only four real races that work as PCs: Men, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits - and only a handful of others in its background.  Star Trek has hundreds of different aliens in its background, including over a dozen used as canonical major characters.  Every new series cast introduces new races - usually several of them.  

I'm not saying that Star Trek is unique.  There are many backgrounds where there are dozens or hundreds of races.  In those backgrounds, I think it makes a lot more sense to have general rules for races rather than specific races rules like in D&D.  It is possible to play a game of Star Trek where you pick races from a list - as I did when I played FASA Star Trek.  However, I think that approach misses something significant in emulating the series.

JH,

 You're just wrong.

Andorians, Tellarites, and especially Vulcans are mentioned with such frequency over the course of FOUR different incarnations of STAR TREK that it makes sense they should have specific stats in any core RPG book meant for STAR TREK. The same goes for Romulans and Klingons.

Here is a good example for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xkyghl9Elg&playnext_from=TL&videos=3-UCGgQKMds

That features a bridge crew of Starfleet officers an an Andorian is the chief Communications officer.

Those characters could be the PCs in a TREK game set during the time period of the classic show.


- Ed C.

I don't think it misses a single thing that can't be made up for by supplemental roll-your-own-alien rules.  

Again, this was one of the only good ideas that STO had.  Star Trek has both established races, and monster of the week ones.  It's important to support both.

Quote from: J Arcane;386105I don't think it misses a single thing that can't be made up for by supplemental roll-your-own-alien rules.  

Again, this was one of the only good ideas that STO had.  Star Trek has both established races, and monster of the week ones.  It's important to support both.

WTF?  You're still acting as if I'm saying that there shouldn't be anything to support Vulcan characters - when I clearly said otherwise.  Let me put this another way.  We're both saying that established races and new races should be supported.  The subtle difference is between:

1) There are general rules for creating alien characters of any race.  Commonly appearing and referenced races like Vulcans, Klingons, Bajorans, and Cardassians are written up including stats and background.  They don't present any problem for the alien creation rules, but are supported on their own because of their importance for the background, and provide an example of those rules in use.  

2) There are general rules for creating alien characters of any race.  However, these rules are incapable of creating Vulcans, Klingons, or other established races.  Therefore there are special case rules for each of these races that don't fit with the general alien rules.  

What you seem to be endorsing is #2 - that there should be rules for make-your-own alien, but for some reason they should be incapable of creating the core races.  I don't see any need for that.

Quote from: Koltar;386104Andorians, Tellarites, and especially Vulcans are mentioned with such frequency over the course of FOUR different incarnations of STAR TREK that it makes sense they should have specific stats in any core RPG book meant for STAR TREK. The same goes for Romulans and Klingons.

Every Star Trek series featured spoons. We surely need stats for spoons. "That's what I meant. Oh, there are stats for races in D&D and there are aliens in Star Trek. Surely these need stats."

Stats provide a modell. They make sure that certain things happen with a certain probability. So sure, you could have stats for races in Star Trek. But it's quite irrelevant whether Vulcans are stronger than humans. Measly humans will brawl Vulcans and Klingons all the time. There is only one episode were the physical superiority of Vulcans is a hindrance the crew can't overcome. And that episode is about a baseball match and how winning is not relevant. (Take me out to the Holosuite, DS9 7x04.)

In Star Trek, even though certain abilities are attributed to certain species, they do not necessarily show. So they are no material for becoming a reliable mechanism.

I was, on the whole, dissatisfied with Decipher Star Trek. The rules for players looked like some actual set of rules that had been run through the eggbeater to determine the new page ordering. Parts of the game are rather cumbersome, combat took way too long (not that it really matters in most adventures, but the time we tried it - ugh). But most specifically, it really didn't feel like Star Trek to me.

Star Trek is all about encountering new worlds and seek out new life and civilizations. To boldly go where no one has gone before. Not, for example, to revisit the Allasomorphs or Ullians. In short, the game should be centered around the new forehead alien table, with the big seven (Humans, Klingons, Vulcans, Cardassians, Ferengi, Bajorans, and Betazoid) used as samples. The game rules should in short be all about how to make a new race, with walk throughs on how to use those rules to end up with Ferengi.

The only time the books really lived up to their potential was the random radiation table. That was very welcome, but they needed that kind of thing for ever part of the future, from structural components to tricorder readings. And especially for stellar anomalies and forehead aliens.

The descriptions of Breen and citations to TV episodes are welcome - but they aren't really necessary because I still have Memory Alpha for any time I need to use something old. The game should have been about creating something new, and it basically wasn't. So I set my disappointment alert to Yellow.

-Frank

Quote from: J Arcane;385738So who else thinks this is basically the most awesome Star Trek RPG ever made?

I do. As others have pointed out, the organization of the book could be improved, but I think that the feel of the series is well caught. Same that happened with LotR, lousy combat rules aside.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;386006

• Why have stats for different species?

They're different, so you may find useful to have mechanics that support the background fact that this species is stronger in average than this other and all that.

Quote

• Why have stats for starships?

Because they're different, and you may find useful to se how they're different.

Quote

• Why have a list of subspace phenomena separate from their function as a plot device?

As a place to mine ideas from for your games.

Quote from: 1of3;386122Every Star Trek series featured spoons. We surely need stats for spoons. "That's what I meant. Oh, there are stats for races in D&D and there are aliens in Star Trek. Surely these need stats."

Don't be silly.

Spoons are not important in Star Trek. The differences between races are, and many episodes feature them as a central thing. Specially in series like DS9, which is all about different races trying to not get to shoot each other.

QuoteIn Star Trek, even though certain abilities are attributed to certain species, they do not necessarily show. So they are no material for becoming a reliable mechanism.

But they will probably show in your own games. Of course, if you're trying to recreate episodes from the series you need fuck all stats. You need only one: Kirk / Not Kirk. If you're Kirk, you win. There, I have solved everything in game design. Send me the fat checks.

Point of order, regarding the alien stats point: the narrator's book contains a chapter all about creating new aliens, as one might expect in a game about Star Trek. It just doesn't fill those pages with mini-GURPS, preferring instead to grant the GM more discretion, an approach I would expect to be well received by so many self-declared old school fans.

Quote from: J Arcane;386252Point of order, regarding the alien stats point: the narrator's book contains a chapter all about creating new aliens, as one might expect in a game about Star Trek. It just doesn't fill those pages with min-GURPS, preferring instead to grant the GM more discretion, an approach. I would expect to be well received by so many selfdeclared old school fans.

Meh. That piece exists, but it's not very useful. It's pretty much "move some stats around." The thing is: moving stats around is precisely the thing I don't want out of a Star Trek race. Stat bonuses and penalties make races be the right or wrong choice to play an engineer, a scientist, or a diplomat. And that's bad.

Races should all have zero attribute modifiers and attribute guidelines for highest to lowest stats. What makes a race different from another is their unique abilities, not the fact that your Science Officer is genetically superior if he is a Vulcan and inferior if he is a Klingon. If I want to be good at science, I want to select a Science related career. If I want to play a Cardassian, it is because I want to be able to withstand very high temperatures without discomfort.

The Decipher Rules did exactly what I didn't want them to do: punish people for playing against type. And they didn't do the thing I wanted them to do - have a frank discussion about what kinds of abilities you could give a race and how you might represent various abilities in game mechanics.

-Frank

Trollman is right.  That's the real problem I've had with every incarnation of Star Trek.  What one would want from Star Trek is something akin to Traveller; where the focus of the game was centered on material and random tables for creating not just new aliens, but new planets/star systems and new cultures and new conflicts for the crew to resolve.  Shitloads of random tables would always help in that.

Instead, every Star Trek game I saw was basically less like Traveller and more like a Forgotten Realms manual, trying to cover all the niggling little details you see in Star Trek Episode 109-DS9 and Star Trek Novel #245987 and Star Trek Miscellaneous Canonical Merchandise #34598.
So you get a ton of carefully researched information meant to allow nerds to nod their heads and give their seal of approval that the game is Following Canon, while losing the entire spirit of what Star Trek is supposed to be about.

That's why from what I've seen, the best game to run Star Trek would be something like Starblazer Adventures.

RPGPundit

Quote from: J Arcane;386105Again, this was one of the only good ideas that STO had.  Star Trek has both established races, and monster of the week ones.  It's important to support both.

When I was working on STO (the Perpetual version prior to the Cryptic one), on the design team we called all of the random aliens "Bumpos," after their bumpy foreheads.

Quote from: RPGPundit;386457That's why from what I've seen, the best game to run Star Trek would be something like Starblazer Adventures.

My choice would be the still-unpublished rules for Normal, TX. They were available as a quickstart and as a downloadable .pdf (I got both), but have somehow never seen the light of day, despite something like three different publishers.

It is incredibly system-light, but has a nifty mechanic for letting different players take different roles in each session... protagonist, sidekick, romantic interest, comic relief, exposition, etc.

It's got far more system to it than something like Primetime Adventures, roughly equivalent to a streamlined version of Over the Edge.

Quote from: jdurall;386466When I was working on STO (the Perpetual version prior to the Cryptic one), on the design team we called all of the random aliens "Bumpos," after their bumpy foreheads.

My condolences for your loss.  Perpetual's version was sounding more and more like a brilliant game with every piece of info I heard about it, something truly unique in the MMO space.

Then along comes Cryptic and makes Champions in Space with more bugs.

Quote from: RPGPundit;386457Trollman is right.  That's the real problem I've had with every incarnation of Star Trek.  What one would want from Star Trek is something akin to Traveller; where the focus of the game was centered on material and random tables for creating not just new aliens, but new planets/star systems and new cultures and new conflicts for the crew to resolve.  Shitloads of random tables would always help in that.

Instead, every Star Trek game I saw was basically less like Traveller and more like a Forgotten Realms manual, trying to cover all the niggling little details you see in Star Trek Episode 109-DS9 and Star Trek Novel #245987 and Star Trek Miscellaneous Canonical Merchandise #34598.
So you get a ton of carefully researched information meant to allow nerds to nod their heads and give their seal of approval that the game is Following Canon, while losing the entire spirit of what Star Trek is supposed to be about.

That's why from what I've seen, the best game to run Star Trek would be something like Starblazer Adventures.

RPGPundit

Isn't this exactly the same attitude we accuse 4e players of possessing?  Why is it suddenly acceptable to just ignore the very idea of creativity because there's prewritten stats for some of the races?  

And furthermore did you miss the post where I pointed out there is a whole chapter on designing alien cultures, with even some random tables for parts of the process?

Quote from: J Arcane;386487My condolences for your loss.  Perpetual's version was sounding more and more like a brilliant game with every piece of info I heard about it, something truly unique in the MMO space.

If it makes you feel any better, the vision the creative director and some of us on the design team had was utterly cast aside by the producer. He hired two designers and a co-producer from Blizzard, and decided that the game would be a World of Warcraft clone.

He had the art style redone so that you could easily make visual connections between the races.

The Federation
Vulcans became Elves
Andorians became Blood Elves
Tellarites became Dwarves

The Klingon Alliance
Klingons became Orcs
Ferengi became Gnomes
Cardassians became Undead
Gorn became Tauren

He wanted hunting/skinning rules, etc. When they downsized and the Creative Director and I were let go... it was a relief.

I wrote about it  (http://jdurall.livejournal.com/17108.html)a couple of years ago.

Holy fuck that guy was a retard!

RPGPundit

Quote from: jdurall;386503If it makes you feel any better, the vision the creative director and some of us on the design team had was utterly cast aside by the producer. He hired two designers and a co-producer from Blizzard, and decided that the game would be a World of Warcraft clone.

Yeah, I recall reading it being sort of the last ditch effort by management to try and make it more mass market or some bullshit like that.  

Unfortunately, it's also the model that Cryptic went with by and large, while also stealing whole cloth from Starfleet Command.

Quote from: J Arcane;386674Yeah, I recall reading it being sort of the last ditch effort by management to try and make it more mass market or some bullshit like that.  

It wasn't last ditch... it pretty much started a year before they got desperate.

It was literally the producer having never played any MMOs other than WoW and thinking that it was the only way a game could possibly be successful.

Quote from: jdurall;386734It wasn't last ditch... it pretty much started a year before they got desperate.

It was literally the producer having never played any MMOs other than WoW and thinking that it was the only way a game could possibly be successful.

Ugh. I really can't think of a franchise I would want to be less like WoW than Star Trek. I really think it would be better as sort of a Sims Online type deal with mystery instances that you solve to get Latinum that you can spend to get knick knacks from the planets you are on that you can put in your quarters that other people get to see when they come over for parties.

While there is something to be said for grabbing a phaser rifle and shooting Dominion Soldiers in the face, that's really the least important thing about the Star Trek galaxy. The part where you solve problems by talking about them and blithely accept that the only way to make other cultures more like yours is to lead by example is the part that's actually important.

-Frank

-Frank

Quote from: jdurall;386734It wasn't last ditch... it pretty much started a year before they got desperate.

It was literally the producer having never played any MMOs other than WoW and thinking that it was the only way a game could possibly be successful.

It is truly staggering how many incredibly ignorant people are in creative production fields.  

I really wanted to play the original game they announced, and it's a shame it was basically killed before it ever made it out of development.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;386737While there is something to be said for grabbing a phaser rifle and shooting Dominion Soldiers in the face, that's really the least important thing about the Star Trek galaxy. The part where you solve problems by talking about them and blithely accept that the only way to make other cultures more like yours is to lead by example is the part that's actually important.

-Frank

Yes, that's true, but when you put it that way I can totally see why a computer gaming exec wouldn't want that; as I can imagine few nerds who'd actually want to play that (I can imagine many who'd CLAIM that's what they'd want, but then wouldn't actually play it).

On the other hand, there's still a jump between Star Trek Federation Troops Shooting at Cardassians or whatever, and Thinly Disguised WoW Elves fighting Thinly Disguised Dwarves or something. That's the most asinine bit.

RPGPundit

Anyone know of any DecTrek software, like a chargen program or anything?

I love me some chargen software.

I'm also thinking I could probably get some mileage out of Traveller stuff for system and sector generation too.

Quote from: J Arcane;387248Anyone know of any DecTrek software, like a chargen program or anything?

I love me some chargen software.

I'm also thinking I could probably get some mileage out of Traveller stuff for system and sector generation too.

I think someone did something in Excel for chargen, but I can't find it right now. You might look on TrekRPG.net for the link.

Quote from: PaladinCA;387332I think someone did something in Excel for chargen, but I can't find it right now. You might look on TrekRPG.net for the link.

I found this here, which has a chargen program, albeit a somewhat unclear one, and some other handy resources: http://strpg.patrickgoodman.org/