Quote from: Bren;831475I think your reading is unlikely and ungenerous.

I'd say he isn't very interested in the challenge of earning victories. He just wants to play out a series of adventures for the same group of characters. That's more fun and interesting for him if he doesn't lose established characters.

We played our Star Trek game that way. Since the adventures were like episodes of TOS or TNG not having main characters die seemed genre appropriate. It also meant we didn't spend time overly planning out actions or  worrying about why the PCs beamed onto a derelict ship in their uniforms instead of in a full environmental suit. A Star Trek game where there was more than an insignificant risk of main character death wouldn't fit the genre.

It's not my favorite type of RPG, but it can make for a fun campaign now and then. You don't have to like it. Nobody has to like it. After all it's not like the less dying in RPG squad will come in and force you not to let PCs in your games die.

But some people really like those sorts of games. Criticizing games other people like without actually understanding why they like what they like is unproductive to a discussion. Making fun of what other people like without even understanding what it is they like and why is even less productive.

Get off your soapbox and show me where I criticized. Seriously you need to work on your reading comprehension if you couldn't understand what I wrote. Maybe less time on the lecture circuit and more time in remedial English is called for.

Quote from: Matt;831492Get off your soapbox and show me where I criticized.

That would be here.

Quote from: Matt;831465Sounds more like the problem is you'd be happier writing a script with your players and then acting out your story than actually playing a game.

Accusing someone of wanting to write a script instead of play an RPG because they don't play like you was clearly meant as a criticism.

If you really didn't intend that to be read as criticism then you are less articulate than your posts make you appear.

Quote from: Nexus;831310It's always a volatile topic. When do the PC die? Do you stick to the rules, disallow death (without player permission) entirely. Can PCs die from just pure bad luck of bad rolls at any time or only during appropriate time (however you define appropriate)?

There are allot of ways to handle death in games. What's your personal approach?

Spun off from this thread on TPB.

Depends on the type of game I'm trying to run. There's 3 main categories in my head.

#1. By the book, deadly.
This is how I run DCC. Dice rolls out in the open, no fudging rules. Now, even this approach I discovered that PC death is pretty rare. I didn't have any character deaths after the funnel. Ressurection is rare and difficult to get.

#2. By the book, forgiving.
This is how I run 2nd ed, more story-ish games. Dice rolls out in the open, no fudging rules, but house rules to make death even more rare. Like using -10 hit points, or three death saves. Basically a buffer between 0 HP "mostly dead" and "really dead". Note that even DCC has the "turn over the body" rule, so it's technically in this category as well. Ressurection at this point is uncommon but doable.

#3. Fudgetastic.
Haven't run this way, but this is where I, as a DM, would allow the #2 level of forgiving death, and then creatively interpret events to make them even less final. A dead character is mostly dead, and if there's a way to avoid the buffer, then I'd take it. Hard to fudge a disintegration, but death by poison could be fudged by a near-death state, and the character is just in a coma. That kind of thing. Ressurection at this level is common for PCs.

Quote from: Nexus;831310It's always a volatile topic. When do the PC die? Do you stick to the rules, disallow death (without player permission) entirely. Can PCs die from just pure bad luck of bad rolls at any time or only during appropriate time (however you define appropriate)?

There are allot of ways to handle death in games. What's your personal approach?

Spun off from this thread on TPB.

I set rules at the start, possibly more lenient than RAW (eg in my Classic D&D game it's dead at -10, in my 5e game you die at negative max hp, with a death save only after 1 hour to wake up). Then I stick with that rigorously - let the players know fear! No raise dead in my 5e game's campaign area* and my Classic players only seem dimly aware it might be an option. PCs absolutely certainly can die from bad luck, as well as stupidity, bravery, heroism etc.

*Nearest Cleric-9s are a thousand miles away.

I'm glad this topic came up because I was researching it myself the last few days. My group mostly likes "dice fall where they may" type rules, but at least one player is way more into having a "fantasy novel" style adventure where you can build character relationships and not worry about your character getting killed by random mooks.

Now my counterpoint to that is that you should be able to do that just fine in a game with more lethality, but I understand that for some people the prospect of losing their PC means they don't put investment into the character. And I want to avoid that.

So I've been trying to figure out what the best way to run a game would be, one with letting PCs die or one where I conspire to make them live and promote other consequences. Granted, I would still try to find other ways to complicate their lives even in a game where the dice fall where they may, but still.

The problem is I can see the same scenario playing out in a game with only complications. Suppose they lose their arm or go blind. They didn't die, but the PC might feel this is worse than death and lose interest in the character. Now I would have to deal with people wanting to re-roll because of inconvenience instead of character death.

Re Raise Dead - I have it some campaigns, but I like it to be a big deal. The man who has "Been to the Darkness", per Game of Thrones, is not going to be the same again - and IME the Reaper has a tendency to reclaim His own... OTOH in one campaign (4e) the PCs are Champions of Mielikki; Hope and Rebirth are major themes, and it works well thematically for the ex-PC Green Regent of Mielikki, who went into the Shadowfell and defeated the Reaper of Cyric in single combat to save the souls of Zhent-murdered innocents, to be able to wrest the souls of fallen PCs from Orcus' Hell.

Quote from: Larsdangly;831456I'ld say, if you want a non-dangerous game, create a non-dangerous setting. Creating a dangerous looking setting and then sucking all the danger out of it by DM-assisted immortality is like giving kids trophies for just showing up.

I think a non-physically-dangerous setting in which there are other dangers, such as social humiliation, is a great idea for death-averse GMs. I'd love to do a Vanity Fair campaign some time.

Doing dungeon-fantasy with no risk of death seems pointless to me, but doing a Soap Opera game with minimal risk of death seems perfectly valid.

Quote from: Bren;831464While I am occasionally tempted to attribute people not wanting their characters to die in a RPG (or any other old thing I don't like about how someone else plays games) to the overly privileged and entitled upbringing of kids younger than me, I don't think that expressing that notion is helpful to a reasoned discussion. And at least anecdotally it isn't true. The oldest person I game with doesn't want their characters to die and being older than me, that player is definitely a boomer and not from some alphabet generation.

Yeah, the nice young folks in my Classic D&D game have assured me they are fine with PC death.

I have had young players freak out over PC death, but most recent was 2008 & 2009, and they both had 'issues', as they say.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;831368See, I have threads and adventures wrapped around ALL my players, and when I lose one, I lose all those fun adventures that I can throw at my group to see how they deal with it.

You gain new adventures to throw at them when they have to.deal.with changes in the PC or NPC lineup.  Seeing how they deal with a situation becomes a lot less interesting when everyone knows "and one of us dies" will never be an option.

As the OP states, a volatile topic.  Certainly we see the proof of that, given the heap of strutting and jeering above, along the lines of "MY type of gamer --" separated out by arbitrary distinctions of age, game system, and type of campaign "-- is the only right thinking gamer, as opposed to THOSE pussy losers."

For my part, my campaign has always had a low mortality rate; I don't think there've been more than a dozen fatalities in the last twenty years.  Part of that is playing GURPS, with a combat system very unforgiving to the "What's the problem, there are only a hundred mook guards?" mentality.  Part of it is that resurrections are desperately rare and difficult in my setting -- it's happened exactly once to a PC in the last thirty years.  Part of it is that my campaign is strongly RP-oriented, and players are expected to be invested in their characters.

But mostly I think it's what I've come to think of as the Tasha Yar Rule: I do not believe in throwaway, meaningless deaths.  A PC cashing out should be through heroic action (or, alternately, through deliberate choice or the predictable result of stupidity), not because a faceless schmuck orc had great dice luck.  Getting incapacitated and/or captured?  Not hard at all.  Getting killed because you decided charging a ballista head-on was a worthwhile tactic?  That can happen.  Getting killed when you yell to your comrades, "You guys save yourselves, I'll hold the bridge as long as I can!" or because you're dueling the Queen's Champion?  The minstrels are writing up your ballad even as I type.

Getting killed because Guard #11 rolled a 3 at the wrong time?  Nah.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;831509I'm glad this topic came up because I was researching it myself the last few days. My group mostly likes "dice fall where they may" type rules, but at least one player is way more into having a "fantasy novel" style adventure where you can build character relationships and not worry about your character getting killed by random mooks.

The funny part is that "the dice fall where they may" offers a very wide range of lethality, based on the system in play.

There's a great bit in Amber Diceless about how you can have a very, very harsh game that isn't dependent on PC death.  Amber Diceless really seems to have been the inspiration for quite a number of games.  I know for a fact it was a huge influence on Fate.

Quote from: robiswrong;831531The funny part is that "the dice fall where they may" offers a very wide range of lethality, based on the system in play...

another funny thing is that "the dice fall where they may" doesn't eliminate the potential for RP.

Quote from: CRKrueger;831525You gain new adventures to throw at them when they have to.deal.with changes in the PC or NPC lineup.  Seeing how they deal with a situation becomes a lot less interesting when everyone knows "and one of us dies" will never be an option.

The problem I have with random death being possible is that players often end up treating characters as playing pieces, rather than caring about what happens in the adventures.

At that point, you may as well play monopoly, the effect ends up being the same (See we can all play that game.)  It's fine for a weekend dungeon crawl set up, where you do nothing but explore pits in the earth, but sometimes, people want something more out of a campaign.

And here's the thing, I never said that 'random' death isn't possible.  If the player decides that his character who fell into the trap of doom is dead, no ressurrection possible, I don't stop him.  I just leave it in my players hands.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;831556another funny thing is that "the dice fall where they may" doesn't eliminate the potential for RP.

I don't know if that's directed at me, but I certainly never believed it did.

I've seen plenty of RP in both high and low lethality games, and I do believe in letting the dice fall as they may.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;831573The problem I have with random death being possible is that players often end up treating characters as playing pieces, rather than caring about what happens in the adventures.

At that point, you may as well play monopoly, the effect ends up being the same (See we can all play that game.)  It's fine for a weekend dungeon crawl set up, where you do nothing but explore pits in the earth, but sometimes, people want something more out of a campaign.

And here's the thing, I never said that 'random' death isn't possible.  If the player decides that his character who fell into the trap of doom is dead, no ressurrection possible, I don't stop him.  I just leave it in my players hands.

While this is totally fine if that is what you enjoy, I can assure you in my games where death is on the table and the player has no out of character say about it, it is nothing like monopoly. People still get invested in their character and the setting when death by random arrow is a possibility. My campaigns feature the occasional dungeon but the rest of the action is predominately political and social in nature.