Quote from: Rincewind1;914900Interestingly enough, I'd say they got their battles wrong. Antietam'd be a much better fit than Gettysburg - after Antietam, without Reckoners gaining control of both British and French governments, the chance for foreign intervention was practically non - existent, even if South'd abolish slavery, since it'd be seen through the lenses of Emancipation Proclamation any way.

By the way - did Vicksburg also fall around the same time range as Gettysburg in Deadlands? I can't recall, and that was actually more important than Gettysburg itself (cutting Confederacy in two via Mississipi).

I think the general canonical pace of Deadlands is that the North loses big as Gettysburg and then they suffer numerous slogging battes until the conflict becomes impossible to win. Basically, they turned it from the Civil War into Vietnam.

Quote from: CTPhipps;914903I think the general canonical pace of Deadlands is that the North loses big as Gettysburg and then they suffer numerous slogging battes until the conflict becomes impossible to win. Basically, they turned it from the Civil War into Vietnam.

Oh, I know. But during Antietam generally North's situation was much worse than during Gettysburg (and as I mentioned, but don't take just my word for it but also McPherson's  and Masur's, the fall of Vicksburg was of equal if not larger consequence strategically than Gettysburg), and a possibility of suing for peace was very likely in a scenario where McClellan didn't even manage to achieve a draw.

Of course, Gettysburg is the battle most heavily set in American culture and psyche, so I am not surprised. Just a wasted chance for the plot to be less Deus Ex Machina - ey, as a Confederate Victory during Antietam, with Reckoners' help (or even alternative, Deadland's Gettysburg complete slaughter of both sides during Antietam), would much more easily end the war and allow for foreign intervention, alongside perhaps slavery's abolition because of Evil Spirits managing to mind - control most of the important plantation owners and Confederate senators.

And as for why there's so much controversy discussing Deadland's decision - one look at CTPhipps' link to the main forums, and you can see how the usual Southern apologists come out of the woodworks immediately. Yes, it was about States' Rights. Namely, about state's right to treat people as property, and ensuring that in process of colonizing the West, enough free states'd not be created to destroy Southern Democrats domination of the Senate.

Quote from: Rincewind1;914917And as for why there's so much controversy discussing Deadland's decision - one look at CTPhipps' link to the main forums, and you can see how the usual Southern apologists come out of the woodworks immediately. Yes, it was about States' Rights. Namely, about state's right to treat people as property, and ensuring that in process of colonizing the West, enough free states'd not be created to destroy Southern Democrats domination of the Senate.

100 years of propaganda is a hard time to shake off. But yes, growing up in this environment, it makes me know that "Confederates aren't so bad" is a pretty insidious slippery slope.

Even if it's done to, ironically, make it so black and Chinese and women cowboys are common in gaming.

Despite, you know, being common in real life.

Quote from: CTPhipps;914918100 years of propaganda is a hard time to shake off. But yes, growing up in this environment, it makes me know that "Confederates aren't so bad" is a pretty insidious slippery slope.

Even if it's done to, ironically, make it so black and Chinese and women cowboys are common in gaming.

Despite, you know, being common in real life.

You have to understand that most people don't know that.  Hell, if they know anything about the Old West at all, it's from Clint Eastwood movies, if that.

The entire idea, as far as I can tell, is to make it easy for average non history knowing schmuck to jump in without a history lesson.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;914933You have to understand that most people don't know that.  Hell, if they know anything about the Old West at all, it's from Clint Eastwood movies, if that.

The entire idea, as far as I can tell, is to make it easy for average non history knowing schmuck to jump in without a history lesson.

You'd be surprised how those Know-Nothings (HAH, now that's a historical joke) will yet suddenly unleash a tempest in a teapot over the minutiae of gun information...Nerds, eh. Can't beat them, had to join them.

even though you won't see this...slavery was a thing in one point in the Deadlands setting but was dropped.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;914933You have to understand that most people don't know that.  Hell, if they know anything about the Old West at all, it's from Clint Eastwood movies, if that.

The entire idea, as far as I can tell, is to make it easy for average non history knowing schmuck to jump in without a history lesson.

The developers have been quite candid about the fact they wanted to make their Western game something which wouldn't attract the worst sort of gamer. Our hobby is 99% made of wonderful people but that 1% who justify racism, sexism, and God knows whatever else weirdness they want to do at their table by "playing in character" or "being historical" or "true to the setting" is my own personal bugbear. I still need to share the story about the player I kicked out for being racist against Asians (with Asian players) in my local WOD chapter because Kindred of the East said he could according to him.

Effectively, they wanted to do their wacky wacky Wild West horror game without scaring off gamers who wouldn't normally touch it. Unfortunately, that ended up being the case of white-washing the Confederacy versus adjusting their world to simply being more progressive due to the existence of demons, undead, and so on.

Quote from: Rincewind1;914938You'd be surprised how those Know-Nothings (HAH, now that's a historical joke) will yet suddenly unleash a tempest in a teapot over the minutiae of gun information...Nerds, eh. Can't beat them, had to join them.

An irony being the Know-Nothings were a major part of the Republican Party as while they hated Catholics, they also generally voted against slavery.

And yes, the "states rights" meme never dies.

Quote from: Allensh;914948even though you won't see this...slavery was a thing in one point in the Deadlands setting but was dropped.

In a bit of randomness, there was actually a Confederate (major) general who proposed emancipation in order to win the war. He's generally cited as "proof" of the whole business of it being about state's rights versus slavery. What people generally forget is Patrick Cleburne was laughed off the stage (actually, it was historically polite silence--which was worse) and generally seemed to not quite get what the whole point of the war was since he was an irish immigrant.

Robert E. Lee, himself, also actually did argue for it at the end out of a matter of pure desperation after the Emancipation Proclamation but I've had the man lionized for his treason so long that I don't exactly afford his argument all that much joy either. Also, because Lee was ALSO shut down since no one really wanted to be independent without slavery. The general problem with Deadlands is not their argument isn't completely unreasonable, though it is, but the fact is it's sources and logic are basically the same ones used by my jerkasses of ancestors.

In any case, I want to thank everyone for your insight into all of this. The issue of slavery and the Confederacy were things which were sticking point with my racially diverse and (ironically) primarily Deep Southern gaming group. All of us had grown up around the subject and it wasn't something we were comfortable with the canonical version of.

Honestly, I don't think we would have probably done Deadlands if not for the fact my recent book just got published which was a post-apocalypse H.P. Lovecraft Weird Western. All of them were in the mood for it to celebrate the book's release. When I wrote that, I made sure to make the protagonist Black simply because I have the same love/hate relationship with Howard Phillips as I do Wild West handling of race.

Still, I'm glad we did because we're presently having a ball.

It says something as well that of the PCs that one is black, one is a Chinese man, another a Chinese woman, and the last a Irishwoman who hates the South.

I personally give no shits about the historic facts of the (un)civil war as it relates to Deadlands, because Deadlands in Alternate History.

As in things didn't actually happen this way, but we are saying it did to make the setting we want.

If you don't like it/can't handle it/are triggered, go play something else.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;915131I personally give no shits about the historic facts of the (un)civil war as it relates to Deadlands, because Deadlands in Alternate History.

As in things didn't actually happen this way, but we are saying it did to make the setting we want.

If you don't like it/can't handle it/are triggered, go play something else.

People don't mind if you complain up and down about Kender, Malkavians, Ravnos, or nerfing classes but if you say it isn't fun to have the Confederates not be mustache twirling slavers you shoot in the face and you're suddenly a pariah.

Tsk-tsk.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;915131I personally give no shits about the historic facts of the (un)civil war as it relates to Deadlands, because Deadlands in Alternate History.

As in things didn't actually happen this way, but we are saying it did to make the setting we want.

If you don't like it/can't handle it/are triggered, go play something else.

Verisimilitude.

Quote from: Rincewind1;915158Verisimilitude.

It's a game setting element. One I don't like.

No more.

No less.

Quote from: CTPhipps;915156People don't mind if you complain up and down about Kender, Malkavians, Ravnos, or nerfing classes but if you say it isn't fun to have the Confederates not be mustache twirling slavers you shoot in the face and you're suddenly a pariah.

Tsk-tsk.

You seem to be of the opinion that I don't apply the same line of thought to those games.

You would be wrong.

is Haiti in the setting?

Quote from: Warboss Squee;915237You seem to be of the opinion that I don't apply the same line of thought to those games.

You would be wrong.

If you're on the internet and don't like people complaining, you may be in for disappointment.