Quote from: tenbones;1104708But the SJW's are trying to save all the souls that clearly aren't as racist as yours and mine, Toric. This is the new "Satanic Panic" - only more organized, more nebulous, and with more crazy.

Yeah, I guess.  I guess I'm not as aware of the SJW stuff as some.  After seeing this thread and the excitement on some other sites about the change to the fictional history of a game to make it "less offensive" to people, I feel like maybe I should go bury my head deeper in the sand.  I've always just though that I should treat people with decency and leave it at that.  But some of this stuff boggles my mind.

Quote from: tenbonesWelcome to the RPGsite!

Thanks!

Back East: the South was published in 1999 and was pretty much the most detailed "setting bible" for Deadlands' Confederacy. It said and portrayed quite a bit of things which even by the standards of the time raised a lot of world-building issues and even in the context of a fictional setting did not make sense.

The Articles of Secession IRL outlined explicit reasons for why the Confederacy went to war, as well as a line by line reading of the Confederate Constitution shown they prioritized preserving slavery over individual autonomy to state and local governments. The Deadlands authors said that real-world history is the same as it is up to July 4th, 1863 which is the major supernatural divergence point. What this means is that slavery, white supremacy espoused in the Cornerstone Speech, systemic torture and breaking up of families, and the lingering fears of black rebellions a la Nat Turner used as justification for said cruelties, are all explicitly canon within the world of Deadlands.

Furthermore, the Abrahamic God exists in Deadlands and grants powers to the Blessed, one of the supernatural background options. He gave said holy powers to members of the Confederate Army's Chaplains in 1863, which was 2 years before the fictional nation counterpart seriously considered manumission of slaves. Which regardless of whether or not the author's intended it, reads as having the major force for Good in the setting be backing a system of race-based chattel slavery. Furthermore, nowhere in Back East is the term State's Rights used, meaning that the Confederacy went from fighting for an evil cause to nothing at all in 1865.

So combined with the above, along with the fact that many people who still fly the Confederate flag today and historically have had sympathies to racist causes* it comes off as more than a bit worrisome when they're a playable group which includes "good guys" among their number. The Texas Rangers' equipment requisition perks, the Rebel Yell Edge, and other in-game options require a Confederate allegiance or active participation to gain their benefits.

*Nazis marching in Charlottesville, the United Daughters of the Confederacy spreading propaganda that "slaves didn't want to be free," the KKK, and so on and so forth

Quote from: Libertad;1104715So combined with the above, along with the fact that many people who still fly the Confederate today and historically have had sympathies to racist causes (Charlottesville, United Daughters of the Confederacy spreading propaganda that "slaves didn't want to be free," etc) it comes off as more than a bit worrisome when they're a playable group which includes "good guys" among their number.

Great post! Speaks to my concerns as well.
When I first played Deadlands I knew little about it, just expected 'Wild West + Horror'. At the first session the GM/Group gave me an overview of the setting... but kinda batted away my questions about the Confederacy. What little they said about it had it coming across as a cop-out... and as much like 'pandering' as anything in the OP's statement... kinda like, 'We want to play as Nazi's so we're just going to ignore all that icky stuff about the Holocaust.'

The rationale at the time by some of the designers was that making a non-racist Confederacy would be more inclusive to various kinds of gamers and that they didn't want to have widespread systemic racism in the setting. The Deadlands Player's Guide as well as the Back East books encourage and claim that racism is the product of "individual villains" rather than organizations, governments, and institutions.

Regardless of their reasoning at the time, this ignored the fact that a lot of people are distinctly uncomfortable with this as it lines up with literal Lost Cause mythos which is propagated by racist groups and like Shane most recently said goes against their desire for being inclusive to many players.

Secondly, systemic racism still does exist in Deadlands, and not just against black people. The US and Confederate governments were engaged in long bloody wars with the Native American nations, often casting them as savages. Chinese immigrants were segregated into their own towns, and one of the immigrant factions encourages assimilation into white society as a means of social mobility even in the current year of the supposedly 'post-racial' setting. There are a few non-villainous NPCs in the various mega-adventures who have bigoted attitudes towards whites, Natives, and Chinese, while the Last Sons in particular dispenses with the post-racial attitude to play up resentments between white settlers and the Sioux/Cheyenne. There's even a Masonic lodge in one of the sidequests which is heavily implied to be a White's Only establishment. In Grim Prairie Trails, a pseudo-Monster Manual for Deadlands, has a subplot where one of the big rail companies is hiring a bounty hunter to scalp Apaches for money given that said tribe is regularly attacking their rail lines, while the Union in Nevada is using experimental jet packs to indiscriminately slaughter Apache villages, civilians included.

Quote from: Libertad;1104715Back East: the South was published in 1999 and was pretty much the most detailed "setting bible" for Deadlands' Confederacy. It said and portrayed quite a bit of things which even by the standards of the time raised a lot of world-building issues and even in the context of a fictional setting did not make sense.

The Articles of Confederation IRL outlined explicit reasons for why the Confederacy went to war, as well as a line by line reading of the Confederate Constitution shown they prioritized preserving slavery over individual autonomy to state and local governments. The Deadlands authors said that real-world history is the same as it is up to July 4th, 1863 which is the major supernatural divergence point. What this means is that slavery, white supremacy espoused in the Cornerstone Speech, systemic torture and breaking up of families, and the lingering fears of black rebellions a la Nat Turner used as justification for said cruelties, are all explicitly canon within the world of Deadlands.

Furthermore, the Abrahamic God exists in Deadlands and grants powers to the Blessed, one of the supernatural background options. He gave said holy powers to members of the Confederate Army's Chaplains in 1863, which was 2 years before the fictional nation counterpart seriously considered manumission of slaves. Which regardless of whether or not the author's intended it, reads as having the major force for Good in the setting be backing a system of race-based chattel slavery. Furthermore, nowhere in Back East is the term State's Rights used, meaning that the Confederacy went from fighting for an evil cause to nothing at all in 1865.

So combined with the above, along with the fact that many people who still fly the Confederate flag today and historically have had sympathies to racist causes* it comes off as more than a bit worrisome when they're a playable group which includes "good guys" among their number. The Texas Rangers' equipment requisition perks, the Rebel Yell Edge, and other in-game options require a Confederate allegiance or active participation to gain their benefits.

*Nazis marching in Charlottesville, the United Daughters of the Confederacy spreading propaganda that "slaves didn't want to be free," the KKK, and so on and so forth

None of what you are saying here is going to be changed by PEG's retcon of the setting history.  They are going to have the CSA ultimately lose the war in 1871.  So it seems likely that real-world history will remain the same up until 1863 when magic and monsters were unleashed on the world. So all of what you said happened in the real-world prior to 1863 is still a thing in Deadlands, even with the change to canon.  Then the Civil War rages on until 1871 in the new canon.  Presumably there will still be Blessed preachers in the south in the new canon.  Some of those preachers were likely at the very least CSA sympathizers, if not outright supporters.  Not sure how the change to the setting history changes any of that.

We're still talking about a fictional setting here.  Spells granted by the Abrahamic God, the dead rising at Gettysburg, etc.  I still have a hard time seeing how so many take offense to this portrayal.

As far as "good guys", are we sure there were no good guys in the south back in 1870?  I mean, I don't know.  It was 150 years ago and I wasn't there.  Were some of the causes championed by the south "evil"?  Sure.  But it certainly doesn't mean every person in the south was evil.  And I would hazard a guess that there were plenty of "evil" people residing in the north back in that time period as well.

And if you're playing with players who have sympathies to racist causes, that problem exists whether you are playing Deadlands or D&D.  I suspect most groups would remove those sorts from their games if made aware of it.

Deadlands is still a game, with a fictional setting.  And I would guess that most groups playing it aren't focusing on racist elements, slavery, and other offensive things.  If there are groups doing that, I would think those groups would disintegrate pretty quickly.

Quote from: Libertad;1104718The rationale at the time by some of the designers was that making a non-racist Confederacy would be more inclusive to various kinds of gamers and that they didn't want to have widespread systemic racism in the setting. The Deadlands Player's Guide as well as the Back East books encourage and claim that racism is the product of "individual villains" rather than organizations, governments, and institutions.

Regardless of their reasoning at the time, this ignored the fact that a lot of people are distinctly uncomfortable with this as it lines up with literal Lost Cause mythos which is propagated by racist groups and like Shane most recently said goes against their desire for being inclusive to many players.

Damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Which is why I'd prefer they stuck to their guns, so to speak. Because chasing inclusivity and psychological comfort means they will never be done changing the game to appease everyone, and wind up just pissing everyone off in the end.

I'm offended by the cultural appropriation and slander of one of my ancestors, both in the original game timeline and the new one!

Am I doing that right?  First time trying to play that card.  

Quote from: Toric;1104719None of what you are saying here is going to be changed by PEG's retcon of the setting history.  They are going to have the CSA ultimately lose the war in 1871.  So it seems likely that real-world history will remain the same up until 1863 when magic and monsters were unleashed on the world. So all of what you said happened in the real-world prior to 1863 is still a thing in Deadlands, even with the change to canon.  Then the Civil War rages on until 1871 in the new canon.  Presumably there will still be Blessed preachers in the south in the new canon.  Some of those preachers were likely at the very least CSA sympathizers, if not outright supporters.  Not sure how the change to the setting history changes any of that.

We're still talking about a fictional setting here.  Spells granted by the Abrahamic God, the dead rising at Gettysburg, etc.  I still have a hard time seeing how so many take offense to this portrayal.

As far as "good guys", are we sure there were no good guys in the south back in 1870?  I mean, I don't know.  It was 150 years ago and I wasn't there.  Were some of the causes championed by the south "evil"?  Sure.  But it certainly doesn't mean every person in the south was evil.  And I would hazard a guess that there were plenty of "evil" people residing in the north back in that time period as well.

And if you're playing with players who have sympathies to racist causes, that problem exists whether you are playing Deadlands or D&D.  I suspect most groups would remove those sorts from their games if made aware of it.

Deadlands is still a game, with a fictional setting.  And I would guess that most groups playing it aren't focusing on racist elements, slavery, and other offensive things.  If there are groups doing that, I would think those groups would disintegrate pretty quickly.

It is still entirely possible that Hensley and co. may pull a "Civil War wasn't about slavery" card, but I think that'd be a pretty big flub on account that he indicated being very aware of how people, African-Americans in particular, felt about said government's legacy. Given his in-depth reading on the subject manner as well as some high-profile events in recent years has more or less brought the nation's modus operandi to the public consciousness.

As for good guys in the Confederacy...The Free State of Jones was formed of people in Mississippi who fought against the Confederacy. And there were a lot of southern Appalachian hillbillies who resented the Planter Class and signed on with the Union. And while they may not exactly be heroic depending upon what they did after their decision, there were quite a few deserters who realized that they were fighting in the interests of the rich slave-holding elites rather than any noble ideal.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1104720Damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Which is why I'd prefer they stuck to their guns, so to speak. Because chasing inclusivity and psychological comfort means they will never be done changing the game to appease everyone, and wind up just pissing everyone off in the end.

The official Savage Worlds Facebook group has reacted in overwhelmingly positive numbers to this decision, with only a precious few disagreeing. Overall it's been a net gain so far.

Quote from: Libertad;1104718Secondly, systemic racism still does exist in Deadlands, and not just against black people. The US and Confederate governments were engaged in long bloody wars with the Native American nations, often casting them as savages. Chinese immigrants were segregated into their own towns, and one of the immigrant factions encourages assimilation into white society as a means of social mobility even in the current year of the supposedly 'post-racial' setting. There are a few non-villainous NPCs in the various mega-adventures who have bigoted attitudes towards whites, Natives, and Chinese, while the Last Sons in particular dispenses with the post-racial attitude to play up resentments between white settlers and the Sioux/Cheyenne. There's even a Masonic lodge in one of the sidequests which is heavily implied to be a White's Only establishment. In Grim Prairie Trails, a pseudo-Monster Manual for Deadlands, has a subplot where one of the big rail companies is hiring a bounty hunter to scalp Apaches for money given that said tribe is regularly attacking their rail lines, while the Union in Nevada is using experimental jet packs to indiscriminately slaughter Apache villages, civilians included.

Yes, terrible people do terrible things to other people.  Sadly this has happened throughout history, not just in this country and not just in the 1800's.  Again, this is still just a game though.  I would assume that most games have the PC's portraying heroes, not those involved in indiscriminate killing of entire ethnic groups, or enslaving others or segregating people into towns based on their skin color.  Most gaming groups are playing heroes fighting monsters and evil.  Those Apache-killing jet-pack using Union soldiers?  Sounds like a possible adventure hook to me.  Help an Apache village fend off these dudes trying to wipe out the village.

Every roleplaying game has conflicts like this, has terrible villains doing terrible things, has entire racial groups that dislike or outright hate other groups.  Old-school AD&D had this built in, various racial animosities.  Star Wars has already been mentioned in this thread as well.  I'm not sure how Deadlands having evil characters who are clearly racist is offensive.  Those perpetrating this stuff are generally villains in the setting.

Quote from: Toric;1104724Yes, terrible people do terrible things to other people.  Sadly this has happened throughout history, not just in this country and not just in the 1800's.  Again, this is still just a game though.  I would assume that most games have the PC's portraying heroes, not those involved in indiscriminate killing of entire ethnic groups, or enslaving others or segregating people into towns based on their skin color.  Most gaming groups are playing heroes fighting monsters and evil.  Those Apache-killing jet-pack using Union soldiers?  Sounds like a possible adventure hook to me.  Help an Apache village fend off these dudes trying to wipe out the village.

Every roleplaying game has conflicts like this, has terrible villains doing terrible things, has entire racial groups that dislike or outright hate other groups.  Old-school AD&D had this built in, various racial animosities.  Star Wars has already been mentioned in this thread as well.  I'm not sure how Deadlands having evil characters who are clearly racist is offensive.  Those perpetrating this stuff are generally villains in the setting.

I don't think we're in disagreement on the use of racism as an antagonistic force in games. My point in regards to this was that Pinnacle's initial desire for a "racism-free setting" was undermined by its own world-building. And specifically in regards to the Confederacy ended up parroting real-world racist groups in trying to be "not-racist," which in turn was what many people took offense towards and for justified reasons.

Quote from: Libertad;1104723It is still entirely possible that Hensley and co. may pull a "Civil War wasn't about slavery" card, but I think that'd be a pretty big flub on account that he indicated being very aware of how people, African-Americans in particular, felt about said government's legacy. Given his in-depth reading on the subject manner as well as some high-profile events in recent years has more or less brought the nation's modus operandi to the public consciousness.

As for good guys in the Confederacy...The Free State of Jones was formed of people in Mississippi who fought against the Confederacy. And there were a lot of southern Appalachian hillbillies who resented the Planter Class and signed on with the Union. And while they may not exactly be heroic depending upon what they did after their decision, there were quite a few deserters who realized that they were fighting in the interests of the rich slave-holding elites rather than any noble ideal.

Exactly.  So we can agree that a player could play a "good guy" from the south.  Obviously there are plenty of cases of those who disagreed with the Confederate cause.  And this problem isn't unique to Deadlands.  Anyone playing an old west rpg, Boot Hill, Coyote Trail, Aces & Eights, etc. would potentially be running into this problem.

Quote from: Libertad;1104725I don't think we're in disagreement on the use of racism as an antagonistic force in games. My point in regards to this was that Pinnacle's initial desire for a "racism-free setting" was undermined by its own world-building. And specifically in regards to the Confederacy ended up parroting real-world racist groups in trying to be "not-racist," which in turn was what many people took offense towards and for justified reasons.

You can never be woke enough, why bother trying? Now that they bent the knee on this they'll keep finding "reasons" to be fake offended in behalf of someone else.

Quote from: Libertad;1104718Regardless of their reasoning at the time, this ignored the fact that a lot of people are distinctly uncomfortable with this as it lines up with literal Lost Cause mythos which is propagated by racist groups and like Shane most recently said goes against their desire for being inclusive to many players.

So how many of these offended Players are going to now rush to play Deadlands because of the retcon? How many of those offended Players were paying customers to begin with?

Quote from: Libertad;1104725I don't think we're in disagreement on the use of racism as an antagonistic force in games. My point in regards to this was that Pinnacle's initial desire for a "racism-free setting" was undermined by its own world-building. And specifically in regards to the Confederacy ended up parroting real-world racist groups in trying to be "not-racist," which in turn was what many people took offense towards and for justified reasons.

I never took it as parroting real-world racist groups, but maybe I didn't think about it hard enough to draw that conclusion.  I still admit surprise that this many people took offense to the fictional Deadlands history.

That said, I still don't see how Pinnacle's retcon of Deadlands history is going to change any of this.  If the south loses in 1871, the only thing that changes is that the CSA isn't a power.  There will still be potential racism in anyone hailing from the south (and the north), still be evil people doing evil things.  And of course terrible people doing terrible things to others outside of the CSA as well.  To me, that was always fodder for drama and adventures for the PC's to help those in need.

But I'm not the target audience of this new edition of Deadlands with changed history.  I will continue to play the original version and will continue to run games that feature heroes fighting evil men and monsters against the backdrop of the provided setting.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1104728You can never be woke enough, why bother trying? Now that they bent the knee on this they'll keep finding "reasons" to be fake offended in behalf of someone else.

Quote from: jeff37923;1104729So how many of these offended Players are going to now rush to play Deadlands because of the retcon? How many of those offended Players were paying customers to begin with?

Because pro-Confederate sympathies piss off political centrists in addition to the mainstream left and far-left, especially outside of the South. Deadlands' whitewashed Confederacy has been the greatest hurdle in new players in trying said setting, and it's not an understatement to say that it's the issue gamers by and large have in regards to Deadlands. More so than its handling of many other issues, in part because the Lost Cause looms largest in the minds of many Americans.

We may never truly know due to the confidentiality of sales figures, but on anecdotal evidence I've seen people reluctant to try Deadlands before now much more interested in the setting due to this change.