Quote from: GeekyBugle;1104668It would accelerate the get woke go broke factor.

I'm not a fan, I'm a consumer, you stop producing stuff I like? My money stays in my wallet. Nobody is entitled to my hard earned pesos. I might or not make public and loud criticisms of the changes and the twats behind them but that's besides the point.

#MeToo...


Wait that doesn't seem right...

You know... my Star Wars game is set in the Old Republic.

I am a big fan of playing in, and using the Sith Empire - not the weak-sauce bullshit Empire in the OT. In-setting the Sith Empire is *insane*. Literally. Genocide, slavery, Wampas living with Gundarks, galactic scale drug-trade and sentient-trafficking for every possible egress of human decency is on the table - and at the top of it is a veritable Death-Cult of nihilist power-worshipping Sith that makes Palpatine look like Mr. Fucking Rogers, and comparably as powerful by direct relation.

The horrors of the Old Republic era as a fictional setting are so many orders of magnitude scarier and worse than *anything* Deadlands could conjure directly as playable content in direct relation to their portrayal of their fictional CSA - it boggles my mind that people *really* are outraged at the use of the CSA. I simply don't buy it. Or at the very least - I question the honesty of people that say it.

Again, anyone that believes this fictional and ludicrous view of the CSA has any real meaning to *anyone* alive PLAYING Deadlands needs to stop playing RPG's, turn off the internet, stop reading books/watching movies and go get some much needed therapy.

There are allot of people that allegedly don't give a damn about the change, ignore canon or don't. even play the game that seems awfully pissed, even hurling insults over this. But I guess I was right about its being of interest. *shrug*

BTW:What the Blue Hell is "Reeeeing" anyway?

Quote from: CarlD.;1104673BTW:What the Blue Hell is "Reeeeing" anyway?

It's a running-gag memetic shorthand for the imagined shrieks of outrage to which most excessively SJ-conscious screeds against any particular pop-culture entertainment can be reduced.

Not sure where it started, although Gamergate is a good bet.

Quote from: wmarshal;1104641Slavery was never defended in Deadlands, and Shane has never "promote advocating for slavery." What Deadlands did was have the CSA abolish slavery and whitewash the hostile race relations one would otherwise have expected to occur, and did so in a way that's a bit hard to believe. Making him out to be some kind of neo-confederate is a bit much.

Hmmm. Didn't know that. I don't remember that being a part of how it was originally marketed.

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Quote from: GameDaddy;1104675Hmmm. Didn't know that. I don't remember that being a part of how it was originally marketed.

There's sidebars about it and everything. Basically - Magic arrived, Hell broke loose. CSA ended slavery because it was "all hands on deck" against the supernatural.

And they straight out said it was to not have to deal with slavery as a thing in the game. It didn't mean slavery didn't happen. It didn't mean there weren't people in the CSA that still supported it. It didn't mean that anything not-bad about the CSA wasn't in play. But it gave players a chance to play this fictional view of history without being weird about it for those that felt weird about it.

But it also meant that not everyone from the CSA was pro-slavery by some magical mandate.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1104675Hmmm. Didn't know that. I don't remember that being a part of how it was originally marketed.

Don't remember the marketing but that was part of the background presented in the core book back in the day. I never bough or read anything past the original core book since my players had zero interest in a western game.

Quote from: tenbones;1104678There's sidebars about it and everything. Basically - Magic arrived, Hell broke loose. CSA ended slavery because it was "all hands on deck" against the supernatural.

And they straight out said it was to not have to deal with slavery as a thing in the game. It didn't mean slavery didn't happen. It didn't mean there weren't people in the CSA that still supported it. It didn't mean that anything not-bad about the CSA wasn't in play. But it gave players a chance to play this fictional view of history without being weird about it for those that felt weird about it.

But it also meant that not everyone from the CSA was pro-slavery by some magical mandate.

I could have sworn it was more of a the war dragged on so long that slavery was ended more out of a lack of manpower then the supernatural.

Quote from: tenbones;1104678Basically - Magic arrived, Hell broke loose. CSA ended slavery because it was "all hands on deck" against the supernatural. And they straight out said it was to not have to deal with slavery as a thing in the game ... it gave players a chance to play this fictional view of history without being weird about it for those that felt weird about it.

So the objection isn't just to the presence of the Confederacy, it's to the presence of an even semi-plausibly redeemed Confederacy, out of indignation at the implication that there were elements worth preserving in it.

I'm unsure how any attempt to create an even semi-historical game setting is going to survive this kind of retroactive Puritanism, to be honest.

Quote from: tenbones;1104669I believe him. I believe he believes exactly what he says. And I don't think that he's virtue-signaling as much as he's acknowledging the ground has *changed* in the gaming-world below his feet and he's making the call he believes is most important for the business in direct relation to his personal desires for the game.

Yeah, that would make sense. I'd probably do similar if my livelihood depended on it. Thinking about it more, in a certain sense I do that already. I censor quite a few of my views and beliefs in my workplace and just in the general company of coworkers due to the overwhelmingly far-left prevailing ideologies in my area and ingrained in the corporation itself. Where they are free to converse however they like in the workplace, I am not; I get to bite my lip and nod when certain rhetoric is leveled in my direction. There is a very strong "corporate culture" that you are expected to abide by and if you don't, you can't be sure whether or not you'll be quietly let go (with HR being the bludgeon of choice). So really, to some extent I am conforming to the culture norms to survive too (along with others I work with).

So, I could get that aspect at least. Protect your ass and ride out the wave.

Quote from: tenbones;1104669Despite all this - with no offense to his sensibilities, I simply will always ignore whatever it is I like/don't like about a setting, like I do with any game. It's a bummer that it even turned into this in the first place from the whining of the Usual Suspects(tm). Deadlands is a magnificent setting, and this does precisely ZERO to get me to stop using it. But I'm always open for it to get worse. Or better.

That's an entirely reasonable stance to take.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1104674It's a running-gag memetic shorthand for the imagined shrieks of outrage to which most excessively SJ-conscious screeds against any particular pop-culture entertainment can be reduced.

Not sure where it started, although Gamergate is a good bet.

It's much older than that. Reeeeeee Reeeeee Reeeeee... is an onomatopoeic expression of intense rage or frustration typically associated with the Angry Pepe character and used by those who frequent the /r9k/ board on 4chan. The expression is often associated with the Autistic Screeching meme, however it is intended to represent the unique croak produced by several species of frogs when agitated.

Certain frog species are known to produce a shrill scream noise to ward of predators when threatened. On October 25th, 2009, the earliest known video of this behavior was uploaded by YouTuber ppparaone, which gained over 2.5 million views and 4,600 comments in the next six years (shown below). This video would later one become even more popular with a screenshot of a comment, and spread to humor content aggregator clickbait websites such as Buzzfeed  and  Smosh.

Original video link;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvgkGewzUq4

...and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfO7pboe-0&feature=youtu.be

Quote from: GameDaddy;1104638Slavery is evil, but that didn't start the civil war, and wasn't even made an issue in the war until after 1863, when Lincoln had the clarity to precisely define the underlying problem and issued the Emanicipation Proclamation. In doing so he also made it possible to to raise a much larger army, and incited wide-scale armed rebellion and uprisings within the Confederacy after that. It certainly helped the North win the war, which up until Gettyburg was clearly losing.

Maybe this is just an issue with phrasing, but I think slavery was most certainly the central issue of the Civil War. Is that what you mean by it being the underlying problem? The North wasn't explicitly abolitionist until the Emancipation Proclamation, but the rebellion was clearly about concerns that the North would continue to dominate and restrict slavery until the system was untenable.

Quote from: tenbones;1104672I am a big fan of playing in, and using the Sith Empire - not the weak-sauce bullshit Empire in the OT. In-setting the Sith Empire is *insane*. Literally. Genocide, slavery, Wampas living with Gundarks, galactic scale drug-trade and sentient-trafficking for every possible egress of human decency is on the table - and at the top of it is a veritable Death-Cult of nihilist power-worshipping Sith that makes Palpatine look like Mr. Fucking Rogers, and comparably as powerful by direct relation.

The horrors of the Old Republic era as a fictional setting are so many orders of magnitude scarier and worse than *anything* Deadlands could conjure directly as playable content in direct relation to their portrayal of their fictional CSA - it boggles my mind that people *really* are outraged at the use of the CSA. I simply don't buy it. Or at the very least - I question the honesty of people that say it.

I don't get this. For those who didn't like the original Deadlands history, the issue wasn't that the CSA was too horrible. Rather, it was the opposite that the fictional CSA was too nice. By having the fictional CSA abolish slavery on their own, and overlooking other prejudices, the original Deadlands seemed to be whitewashing historical reality. It seems similar to me to complaints about Disney's Song of the South. It wasn't that the movie was horrible to black people -- there were very positive black characters. It was that it portrayed a nice sweet plantation-owning family who got along well with their black workers, which gave a false impression of Southern race relations, particularly to kids.

The parallel in WWII games wouldn't be editing out the Nazis, but rather having the Nazis give up on their anti-semitism and freeing the Jews while also winning.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1104680I could have sworn it was more of a the war dragged on so long that slavery was ended more out of a lack of manpower then the supernatural.

That was certainly part of it - but it ended long before the current "baseline" of the game. Essentially the CW just dragged on until when the game officially "starts".

But slavery isn't a thing by that point, using their in-game conceits.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1104683So the objection isn't just to the presence of the Confederacy, it's to the presence of an even semi-plausibly redeemed Confederacy, out of indignation at the implication that there were elements worth preserving in it.

I'm unsure how any attempt to create an even semi-historical game setting is going to survive this kind of retroactive Puritanism, to be honest.

That's my problem with people's general "issues" with it. How can you enjoy/play/engage *ANY* fiction. Even now you see it in videogames where any kind of trope is tied back to "historical colonialism" rendering it "problematic" etc etc. /queue the outrage.

Rather than engaging with the product on its own merits. This is the problem of putting ones ideology ahead of an artistic endeavor.