"Dead" Levels

Bedrockbrendan · August 08, 2015, 10:54:03 AM

Hit Point increases are still important, even if you don't get special skills or abilities with a level.

Dead Levels never really troubled me. Maybe I am simply used to it but when I first started hearing complaints about this, I never really understood the concern.

Bren · August 08, 2015, 11:06:57 AM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;847419Hit Point increases are still important, even if you don't get special skills or abilities with a level.

Dead Levels never really troubled me. Maybe I am simply used to it but when I first started hearing complaints about this, I never really understood the concern.

You probably spent some fraction of your life after the age of 18 living in a crappy apartment that didn't come with a state of the art fitness center and you probably drove an old car, if you even could afford a car.

Bedrockbrendan · August 08, 2015, 11:19:17 AM

Quote from: Bren;847422You probably spent some fraction of your life after the age of 18 living in a crappy apartment that didn't come with a state of the art fitness center and you probably drove an old car, if you even could afford a car.

I still live in a crappy apartment!

Bren · August 08, 2015, 11:35:19 AM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;847425I still live in a crappy apartment!

More validation for my theory.

Bedrockbrendan · August 08, 2015, 11:47:55 AM

Quote from: Bren;847432More validation for my theory.

I live in a bad neighborhood as well, if that helps your theory.

Bren · August 08, 2015, 12:29:38 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;847438I live in a bad neighborhood as well, if that helps your theory.

Crappy apartments and bad neighborhoods are like ham 'n eggs. Which means it probably doesn't help since both tend to correlate to the same causes.

Gronan of Simmerya · August 08, 2015, 12:55:42 PM

Quote from: RandallS;847418I have to think that there may be a simple reason why people did not consider a level in which one only gained hit points to be a dead level in OD&D, B/X, and even 1e but they do in more modern versions today. I think hit point inflation is the major reason hit points are no longer seen as a major benefit. Another hit dice was a major increase in survival power compared to the monsters in OD&D/Greyhawk, B/X, or 1e.

In later versions of the game, monsters started getting more and more hit points, so another hit die for a character did not seem to be that much of an improvement. In older versions of the game that 4.5 average increase in hit points for a fighter actually did mean the fighter could successful take on monsters he could not before. As the hit points for monsters inflated, that 4.5 hit point average increase started meaning less and less compared to the monsters. That is, the increase in hit points no longer really enabled the character to do noticeably better in the game (as it had in early editions).

Good analysis. In OD&D every hit die is a BIG FUCKING DEAL.

Gronan of Simmerya · August 08, 2015, 12:56:18 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;847419Hit Point increases are still important, even if you don't get special skills or abilities with a level.

Dead Levels never really troubled me. Maybe I am simply used to it but when I first started hearing complaints about this, I never really understood the concern.

Or maybe you're not a whiny-ass little crybaby.

Batman · August 08, 2015, 02:20:35 PM

My problem with only HP is that all classes get HP when they level and spellcaster classes get spells on top of that. You can make a fighter get interesting and better abilities as they gain levels but that's a fairly new concept where game design is concerned.

Gronan of Simmerya · August 08, 2015, 02:24:22 PM

I love playing OD&D fighters. I can do anything I want related to fighting, instead of looking at a god damn character sheet full of restrictions.

Anything not explicitly forbidden is permitted. The OD&D fighter is the most fun to play because he can do anything.

The problem is not the rules, it is unimaginative players and shit referees.

Batman · August 08, 2015, 02:44:39 PM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;847501I love playing OD&D fighters. I can do anything I want related to fighting, instead of looking at a god damn character sheet full of restrictions.

Anything not explicitly forbidden is permitted. The OD&D fighter is the most fun to play because he can do anything.

The problem is not the rules, it is unimaginative players and shit referees.

This is true of any edition of the game. Some games are more punitive than others on doing certain actions, however, like in 3e almost everything provokes AoO but if you don't use or care about it, then you're fine. Can't there be both cool widgets AND free-form to do whatever I want?

Christopher Brady · August 08, 2015, 02:46:35 PM

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;847501I love playing OD&D fighters. I can do anything I want related to fighting, instead of looking at a god damn character sheet full of restrictions.

Anything not explicitly forbidden is permitted. The OD&D fighter is the most fun to play because he can do anything.

The problem is not the rules, it is unimaginative players and shit referees.

Thing is, even with the goodies some editions of D&D give out (except maybe 4e, it did say you could, but it did give the impression you shouldn't, of course, that could also be my reading of it) there has been no editions that say you can't. And there was nothing in the rules disallowing you to not replicate the 'powers' or improvised actions.

But then again, there seems to be a lot of gamers out there that if it's not on the character sheet, you can't do it. Again, despite nothing in the rules saying you can't.

I do admit that during my AD&D phase I was like that, ironically 3.x changed my view of it.

Philotomy Jurament · August 08, 2015, 02:53:13 PM

More hit points is never something "meh," the way I look at it.

Phillip · August 08, 2015, 03:02:09 PM

I've got no complaint, but if it's something you don't like (and you basically like the game otherwise) then suit yourself.

If you can identify what you're missing, what "level-up" goodies you want, no problem.

If it's hard to think of what to add, though, then you might be happier with the little effort of calling the upsetness too much ado about what is on closer examination nothing.

The Butcher · August 08, 2015, 04:32:35 PM

Quote from: Orphan81;842752The Level where pretty much nothing on your character sheet changes except for Hitpoints, and if you're lucky maybe a save..

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;847509More hit points is never something "meh," the way I look at it.

This. Hit points are often not as plentiful in TSR/OSR versions as they are in WotC editions, and level advancement is slower to boot.

Getting +1d6 permanent HP is a big deal.

Sure, magic-users and thieves get +1d4, but then they also get better at their specific schticks with every level.