Never mind the '90s, White Wolf was doing it in their manuals well into the 2000s.

WW liked to spread the love around, too. Remember that Aberrant book that sneered at the idea of being treated as a mere superhero game?

Oh and the 'happy little trees and elves" thing was from CP2020 so it could very well have been a knock at Shadowrun. I'd always assumed it was directed at D&D but SR makes sense.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;687075I thought about that but Cyberpunk 2013 hit in 1988, Shadowrun wasn't released until 89 or so.  Of course it's entirely possible Mike Pondsmith knew about SR beforehand, or that I'm thinking of Cyberpunk:2020.  

(ha ha, Firefox thinks Cyberpunk is a real word but Shadowrun isn't )

According to Jordan Weisman, he was originally going to do a purely cyberpunk game but Cyberpunk 2013 scooped him, so he shifted tack to add fantasy elements and Shadowrun was born.

Quote from: Raven;688167WW liked to spread the love around, too. Remember that Aberrant book that sneered at the idea of being treated as a mere superhero game?

You mean the corebook?

Seriously, I couldn't get through it because it seemed to want to spend most of its time telling me over and over how it wasn't the thing it so clearly was.

Quote from: RPGPundit;688070Never mind the '90s, White Wolf was doing it in their manuals well into the 2000s.

I recently looked over the nWoD core book and was struck by the fact that a) it doesn't really address what an RPG is until chapter 8 (and even then it doesn't even offer an example of play), and b) it gets distracted partway through that explanation to talk about that whole "role-playing over roll-playing" bee WW had in its bonnet, which was already completely groanworthy halfway into oWoD's lifespan.

Quote from: Warthur;688176I recently looked over the nWoD core book and was struck by the fact that a) it doesn't really address what an RPG is until chapter 8 (and even then it doesn't even offer an example of play), and b) it gets distracted partway through that explanation to talk about that whole "role-playing over roll-playing" bee WW had in its bonnet, which was already completely groanworthy halfway into oWoD's lifespan.

The first chapter briefly describes how the game works, though, on page 22: "Storytelling games involve at least two, although preferably four or more players. Everybody involved in the game participates in telling a group story -- the players create and act out the roles of their characters, and the Storyteller creates and reveals the plot, introducing allies and antagonists with which the players' characters interact. The players' choices throughout the course of the Storytelling experience alter the plot. The Storyteller's job isn't to defend his story from any attempt to change it, but to help create the story as events unfold, reacting to the players' choices and weaving them into a greater whole, introducing secondary characters and exotic settings."

Incidentally, there's an example of play in chapter 7, on pages 182-185, but that's more accurately an example of combat, not a description of what takes place at the table.

Also, that "some people call those roll-playing games, since they're more focused on dice rolling than role-playing" paragraph is right at the beginning of chapter 8, and doesn't exactly derail the rest of the text. Besides, it is, strictly speaking, true: some people do that.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;688188The first chapter briefly describes how the game works, though, on page 22: "Storytelling games involve at least two, although preferably four or more players. Everybody involved in the game participates in telling a group story -- the players create and act out the roles of their characters, and the Storyteller creates and reveals the plot, introducing allies and antagonists with which the players' characters interact. The players' choices throughout the course of the Storytelling experience alter the plot. The Storyteller's job isn't to defend his story from any attempt to change it, but to help create the story as events unfold, reacting to the players' choices and weaving them into a greater whole, introducing secondary characters and exotic settings."

Whilst true the description there is very sparse as far as such descriptions go - the spiel at the start of chapter 8 works better - and it's buried in a minefield of confusing game fiction.

As such, I suspect a lot of novices reading the book would miss that part entirely, and if they did take note of it, it doesn't describe the contract in quite enough detail to really help put things together for them.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;688188Also, that "some people call those roll-playing games, since they're more focused on dice rolling than role-playing" paragraph is right at the beginning of chapter 8, and doesn't exactly derail the rest of the text. Besides, it is, strictly speaking, true: some people do that.

Oh sure, the chapter was utterly progressive by WW standards! It suggested (in all seriousness) that instead of mocking the "unwashed masses" who play D&D it was the WW gamer's job to show them the error of their ways and correct them.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;688898Oh sure, the chapter was utterly progressive by WW standards! It suggested (in all seriousness) that instead of mocking the "unwashed masses" who play D&D it was the WW gamer's job to show them the error of their ways and correct them.

You'd be talking about this from the same page: "Just don't get lost in the Ivory Tower. Don't deride those who see gaming as a fun hobby (which it is), or those whose roleplaying stories don't aim higher. Instead, encourage and persuade players to stretch their boundaries. Storytelling is about achieving something great through an interactive tale, but not at the expense of fun."

But note that the advice's not in any way directed towards D&D or any specific kind of RPG at all. It's meant to apply equally to players with no experience of any other games than WoD itself.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;688927You'd be talking about this from the same page: "Just don't get lost in the Ivory Tower. Don't deride those who see gaming as a fun hobby (which it is), or those whose roleplaying stories don't aim higher. Instead, encourage and persuade players to stretch their boundaries. Storytelling is about achieving something great through an interactive tale, but not at the expense of fun."

But note that the advice's not in any way directed towards D&D or any specific kind of RPG at all. It's meant to apply equally to players with no experience of any other games than WoD itself.

Its pretty clear to everyone who they meant.  They obviously weren't going to say "D&D" to avoid a lawsuit.  

Its notable how their smug sense of superiority just drips off the page.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;689259Its pretty clear to everyone who they meant.  They obviously weren't going to say "D&D" to avoid a lawsuit.

That doesn't really fit in with some of their past products from the same time period.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;689270That doesn't really fit in with some of their past products from the same time period.

Not very relevant. The fact that they made money off d20 just proves they're a smart company. It doesn't change what they were trying to push as an ideology with nWoD.

Quote from: RPGPundit;689596Not very relevant. The fact that they made money off d20 just proves they're a smart company. It doesn't change what they were trying to push as an ideology with nWoD.

Eh, that's nothing more than the same old "RPGs can be art too" stance which White Wolf has already held for over twenty years. It never stopped these same people from playing D&D as well.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;688188The first chapter briefly describes how the game works, though, on page 22: "Storytelling games involve at least two, although preferably four or more players. Everybody involved in the game participates in telling a group story -- the players create and act out the roles of their characters, and the Storyteller creates and reveals the plot, introducing allies and antagonists with which the players' characters interact. The players' choices throughout the course of the Storytelling experience alter the plot. The Storyteller's job isn't to defend his story from any attempt to change it, but to help create the story as events unfold, reacting to the players' choices and weaving them into a greater whole, introducing secondary characters and exotic settings."

Got around to checking up on this and not only is your quote the full extent of the explanation (which I maintain is too brief to be of very much use for new players), it's also jammed into a section where it doesn't belong that talks about "The Elements of Stylish Horror" and focuses more on the different themes of the game. Apparently White Wolf didn't feel the need to lead off their book with a section clearly entitled "New players start here" or "What sort of game is this?" or "What is roleplaying/Storytelling?" or anything like that because that'd get in the way of all the game fiction or something.

QuoteIncidentally, there's an example of play in chapter 7, on pages 182-185, but that's more accurately an example of combat, not a description of what takes place at the table.

Which is exactly the problem: a dialogue-based example of play instantly communicates the idea of what happens at the table to new players. They've been included in gaming rulebooks literally since OD&D (check out booklet 3, it's in there) and nobody's really developed a decent equivalent aside from actual play podcasts/videos/posts online - and certainly nobody's developed an equivalent which works as well as an inclusion in an actual rulebook.

Quote from: Warthur;689601Got around to checking up on this and not only is your quote the full extent of the explanation (which I maintain is too brief to be of very much use for new players), it's also jammed into a section where it doesn't belong that talks about "The Elements of Stylish Horror" and focuses more on the different themes of the game. Apparently White Wolf didn't feel the need to lead off their book with a section clearly entitled "New players start here" or "What sort of game is this?" or "What is roleplaying/Storytelling?" or anything like that because that'd get in the way of all the game fiction or something.

Well, that first chapter is meant to serve as a general "What is the (new) World of Darkness?" introduction. It (briefly, admittedly) describes the basic idea of the gameplay, includes a summary of the system, and presents as in-character documents the only detailed setting information in the book, except maybe for the section on ghosts as antagonists at the very end.

Samples of play more in the style of session logs are useful, but hardly mandatory. Instead, the WoD core has shorter examples scattered throughout the text.