But dude, you obviously do care; hence the grave dancing.

I think grog.txt is kind of funny, intentionally and otherwise. In some ways, it's a bit of a microcosm of rpg discussion in general: talking points posted as objects of ridicule and countered/argued against with more talking points. The thing is largely the same talking points posted again and again and argued against the same way again and again. Really, as far as I can tell the only time it varies from this is when someone finds some creepy rpg sex stuff to post. However, I've only read about 100 pages, so perhaps there are hidden depths that I am missing. However, however on the current last page of the thread there is a lovely little save or die justification followed by a 'characters should mean something' style refutation.
It really shows how gamers of both the new and old schools can't get enough of pointless and repetitive arguments and don't have anything new to say to one another. I assume that is part of the thread's point and why they hang out there. there really isn't any need to engage in a dialogue. It isn't going to go anywhere. I find it as a whole no more worthy or shameful than any other rpg discussion wherein one group of nerds tries to show that they are better than another group of nerds, which is to say pretty much every online rpg discussion. I do like the way that they cop to their own hypocrisy as if that somehow makes it less hypocritical. Speaking as a confessed hypocrite, i must say, that it does not.

Assholes are always telling you they are assholes like its some kind of get out of jail free card. It's part of what makes them assholes.

T -4

Quote from: Gib;558984Assholes are always telling you they are assholes like its some kind of get out of jail free card. It's part of what makes them assholes.

Hey, i resemble that remark!

Hmm.  FOr once a thread got longer and actually better.

Thanks, Brad.

It is funny you mentioned this becasue I spent days online defending my hypothesis that the designers really did not understand how each generation of the game had been fundamentally balanced or the term (game length) it had been balanced for.

And now, after defending the position with only logic (if they had known 'x', they would not have done 'y'), I get some backing.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;558708They are all utterly incompetent.  No sense that game design is anything other than throwing shit together, tossing it at the wall, and hoping that no one sees the man behind the curtain ever fucking left their lips.  No sense of the important of math, of statistics, of fucking game balance, or of anything else that remote resembles competent game design.  No sense of D&D's history (which, as they want a modular game based on prior editions, is fucking important).  No sense that they had any competition from competing media--they specifically denied that MMOs and boardgames were eating their lunch, or that PF honestly posed a threat--and I had a hard time keeping it polite for the duration.

It sounds like the only real answer, then, is for someone to put together a presentation of exactly how they are about to do damage to the D&D brand again, put on a suit and tie, and take a road trip to Rhode Island and see if someone at Hasbro will be willing to pay attention.

Quote from: John Morrow;559004It sounds like the only real answer, then, is for someone to put together a presentation of exactly how they are about to do damage to the D&D brand again, put on a suit and tie, and take a road trip to Rhode Island and see if someone at Hasbro will be willing to pay attention.

Oh, that should totally be me. Suit and tie guys love me.

Quote from: Gib;559006Oh, that should totally be me. Suit and tie guys love me.

Start a Kickstarter to fund the trip and I'll donate some money to it.

And so began the end of days.

Quote from: John Morrow;559004It sounds like the only real answer, then, is for someone to put together a presentation of exactly how they are about to do damage to the D&D brand again, put on a suit and tie, and take a road trip to Rhode Island and see if someone at Hasbro will be willing to pay attention.

I can sum it up thusly: I would rather that the current team running WOW work on D&D5, because they actually have technical skills and experience with using them (however badly and ineptly) than the current D&D5 team.

Quote from: LordVreeg;558999It is funny you mentioned this becasue I spent days online defending my hypothesis that the designers really did not understand how each generation of the game had been fundamentally balanced or the term (game length) it had been balanced for.

There are quite a few different bad smells emanating from this project.  See Frank Trollman's comments about broken math in this thread.  See also my rant here.  And the Forge Kool Aid still seems to be flowing freely in their comments, too.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;559019I can sum it up thusly: I would rather that the current team running WOW work on D&D5, because they actually have technical skills and experience with using them (however badly and ineptly) than the current D&D5 team.

Yeah, but the problem is (A) getting them to grasp their own incompetence and the damage they are about to do to the flagship game of the hobby, their employer, and their careers, or (B) getting their superiors at Hasbro to realize that WotC has given the keys to one of their potentially valuable brands to a bunch of people who are going mess things up a second time on them.  If they still don't get it at this point, I'm not really hopeful on (A), nor do I have much faith that RPGPundit is going to be able to turn the Titanic around from his perch in Uruguay.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;558708This past weekend, at CONvergence, I sat on "The Future of Dungeons & Dragons" with three WOTC employees (Jennifer Wilkes, Peter Lee and Terry O'Brien) to talk about D&D5.

They mean well.  They're all pleasant, sincere, and earnest in their desire to make The Best D&D Evar.  I'd socialize with them, even play with them, but that doesn't mean I want them making the game.

They are all utterly incompetent.  No sense that game design is anything other than throwing shit together, tossing it at the wall, and hoping that no one sees the man behind the curtain ever fucking left their lips.  No sense of the important of math, of statistics, of fucking game balance, or of anything else that remote resembles competent game design.  No sense of D&D's history (which, as they want a modular game based on prior editions, is fucking important).  No sense that they had any competition from competing media--they specifically denied that MMOs and boardgames were eating their lunch, or that PF honestly posed a threat--and I had a hard time keeping it polite for the duration.

Fortunately, they're at least good at picking the right Consultants. Perhaps in recognition of certain blind spots.

RPGPundit

Quote from: John Morrow;559022nor do I have much faith that RPGPundit is going to be able to turn the Titanic around from his perch in Uruguay.

I'm going to do my best, and so far I certainly have no complaints; and I'm not just talking about the excellent pay and the free AD&D reprints, I'm also talking about the sense that they're trying to listen to me and get it when I'm telling them how something is a bad idea (or conversely, a good one).  Obviously, thus far they haven't implemented everything I've said (I couldn't really expect them to), but there are quite a few things from one evolution to the next to the next of the rules thus far that have been a product of my advice, and I'm pleased with the overall direction in which things are going.

I can't promise you guys the moon, nor will I claim that all your concerns are without foundation, but I can tell you that the design people I'm dealing with directly (mainly Mike Mearls) are taking all kinds of things, including mechanical issues, very seriously and have absolutely NOT been pigheaded about sticking to something when they've been shown how it could be problematic (either mechanically, in terms of progression, in terms of what it could do in actual play, or in terms of how it will be received in certain demographics). They're not just stampeding around without consideration, and have been willing to do major rewrites to get things working better.

RPGPundit