Quote from: Sommerjon;788567That doesn't ring true to the stance here.

Nor is that ever stated in the books.

I'll get you the exact quote from Moldvay basic when I get to my copy. That advice was very much included in the DMing section.

[page B51]

C. DECIDE ON SPECIAL MONSTERS TO BE USED.
The DM should decide on what special monsters (not placed by
using the Wandering Monster tables) will be used. Some monsters
should be placed by the DM because of the scenario chosen,
and the DM may create or change some monsters to fit the
dungeon.[/end]

[page B52]
E. STOCK THE DUNGEON.
To "stock" a dungeon means to fill in the general details, such as
monsters, treasure, and traps. Special monsters should be first
placed in the appropriate rooms along with special treasures. The
remaining rooms can be stocked as the DM wishes. If there is no
preference as to how certain rooms are stocked, the following system
may be used. Roll Id6 for CONTENTS, and then roll on the
second table for TREASURE according to the result of the first roll.
A "Yes" result means that Treasure is there along with whatever is
indicated by the first roll
[/end]

So right there in the "How to be a DM" section, we have advice about placing specific monsters & treasures in a non-random fashion.

If you don't have this book, you can get it for $5.00 from D&D Classics. Its worth it for the DMing section alone.

The AD&D DMG has quite a bit of detail regarding monster & treasure placement also.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;788577I'll get you the exact quote from Moldvay basic when I get to my copy. That advice was very much included in the DMing section.

[page B51]

C. DECIDE ON SPECIAL MONSTERS TO BE USED.
The DM should decide on what special monsters (not placed by
using the Wandering Monster tables) will be used. Some monsters
should be placed by the DM because of the scenario chosen,
and the DM may create or change some monsters to fit the
dungeon.[/end]

[page B52]
E. STOCK THE DUNGEON.
To "stock" a dungeon means to fill in the general details, such as
monsters, treasure, and traps. Special monsters should be first
placed in the appropriate rooms along with special treasures. The
remaining rooms can be stocked as the DM wishes. If there is no
preference as to how certain rooms are stocked, the following system
may be used. Roll Id6 for CONTENTS, and then roll on the
second table for TREASURE according to the result of the first roll.
A "Yes" result means that Treasure is there along with whatever is
indicated by the first roll
[/end]

So right there in the "How to be a DM" section, we have advice about placing specific monsters & treasures in a non-random fashion.

If you don't have this book, you can get it for $5.00 from D&D Classics. Its worth it for the DMing section alone.

The AD&D DMG has quite a bit of detail regarding monster & treasure placement also.

I shouldn't need the Moldvay book in order to play another edition of D&D.

Sure the AD&D DMG has quite a bit of detail regarding monster & treasure placement.
[page 91-92]
"All monsters would not and should not possess treasure! The TREASURE TYPES given in the MONSTER MANUAL are the optimums and are meant to consider the maximum number of creatures guarding them. Many of the monsters shown as possessing some form of wealth are quite unlikely to have any at all.  This is not a contradiction in the rules, but an admonition to the DM not to give away too much!"

Quote from: Sommerjon;788718Sure the AD&D DMG has quite a bit of detail regarding monster & treasure placement.
[page 91-92]
"All monsters would not and should not possess treasure! The TREASURE TYPES given in the MONSTER MANUAL are the optimums and are meant to consider the maximum number of creatures guarding them. Many of the monsters shown as possessing some form of wealth are quite unlikely to have any at all.  This is not a contradiction in the rules, but an admonition to the DM not to give away too much!"

Alright then what seems to be the problem with enforced randomness?

There may be some DMS who really like to make everything random but that isn't based on explicit instructions from the game itself.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;788763Alright then what seems to be the problem with enforced randomness?

1d6 Dingos showed up on a wilderness encounter table and ate Sommerjon's baby.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;788763Alright then what seems to be the problem with enforced randomness?

Didn't say I had a problem with it.  I said: "nor do I agree with the lion's share of XP comes from treasure. If it is, someones die rolling is breaking statistics."

Finding out that treasure also equals XP it sounded nifty.  Then,
"Don't look at me. I'm not the one that made the treasure table. It wasn't until finding shit loot multiple times that we realized the treasure table is ass."
that happened and we realized that gold=Xp wasn't all that until later in a character's career.  

Quote from: Bren;7887931d6 Dingos showed up on a wilderness encounter table and ate Sommerjon's baby.

I snicker at your nit-picking of how much XP people get when you say 80-90% comes from treasure.  That's a whole lot of needless work for maybe 1-2% of their XP.  Good Job!:cheerleader:

Quote from: Sommerjon;788843Didn't say I had a problem with it.  I said: "nor do I agree with the lion's share of XP comes from treasure. If it is, someones die rolling is breaking statistics."

Finding out that treasure also equals XP it sounded nifty.  Then,
"Don't look at me. I'm not the one that made the treasure table. It wasn't until finding shit loot multiple times that we realized the treasure table is ass."
that happened and we realized that gold=Xp wasn't all that until later in a character's career.  

OK, so you had a stingy DM who preferred to blame the treasure tables for witholding XP. Not a system problem at all.

Quote from: Sommerjon;788567That doesn't ring true to the stance here.

Nor is that ever stated in the books.

Yes it is, very clearly in the original Volume 3! Random generation tables were explicitly presented as a labor-saving convenience for quickly filling in the secondary areas of a dungeon level when the key areas were carefully designed.

The wilderness tables were presented to be used (in conjunction with the map from Avalon Hill's Wilderness Survival game) for impromptu play. They could also be used to generate "filler" for a proper campaign map, as with the dungeons. The Dungeon Masters Guide included a number of essays on designing the campaign milieu.

Quote from: Sommerjon;788273Sure that is what people want to believe, except the treasure table doesn't bear that out.  


Don't look at me.  I'm not the one that made the treasure table.  It wasn't until finding shit loot multiple times that we realized the treasure table is ass.

No, what's an ass is a stumblebum player whose "strategy" is a drunkard's walk, and blames his failure not on that but on a false claim that the tables don't provide rich treasures.

They do indeed, but your odds of being in on a haul of 1000s of g.p. value are not so good if you expect it just to drop into your lap! Play long enough, and you'll eventually wander into such a random jackpot. But that's likely to take a long time, because there will be fewer nearby as more skillful players clean out the hoards.

Quote from: Sommerjon;788843I snicker at your nit-picking of how much XP people get when you say 80-90% comes from treasure.  That's a whole lot of needless work for maybe 1-2% of their XP.  Good Job!

I wanted to cheer you up. We are all tired of your whining and crying about your epic failure to find treasure.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;788870OK, so you had a stingy DM who preferred to blame the treasure tables for witholding XP. Not a system problem at all.

Hmm lemme see, what did Gary say about that...
[page 91-92]
"All monsters would not and should not possess treasure! The TREASURE TYPES given in the MONSTER MANUAL are the optimums and are meant to consider the maximum number of creatures guarding them. Many of the monsters shown as possessing some form of wealth are quite unlikely to have any at all. This is not a contradiction in the rules, but an admonition to the DM not to give away too much!"
Yep it's a stingy DM. :rolleyes:  
Couldn't be that people were following what Gary says to do at all.  Evidently we are supposed to be following what was written in one edition to play another edition.
Wow.

Quote from: Phillip;788892No, what's an ass is a stumblebum player whose "strategy" is a drunkard's walk, and blames his failure not on that but on a false claim that the tables don't provide rich treasures.

They do indeed, but your odds of being in on a haul of 1000s of g.p. value are not so good if you expect it just to drop into your lap! Play long enough, and you'll eventually wander into such a random jackpot. But that's likely to take a long time, because there will be fewer nearby as more skillful players clean out the hoards.

Ignoring certain dungeons because they have the wrong treasure tables to roll on.  Smart players there.:rolleyes:

Quote from: Phillip;788888Yes it is, very clearly in the original Volume 3! Random generation tables were explicitly presented as a labor-saving convenience for quickly filling in the secondary areas of a dungeon level when the key areas were carefully designed.

The wilderness tables were presented to be used (in conjunction with the map from Avalon Hill's Wilderness Survival game) for impromptu play. They could also be used to generate "filler" for a proper campaign map, as with the dungeons. The Dungeon Masters Guide included a number of essays on designing the campaign milieu.

Not going to buy one edition to play another edition.

Quote from: Bren;788938I wanted to cheer you up. We are all tired of your whining and crying about your epic failure to find treasure.

And yet you still keep asking questions...

Quote from: Sommerjon;789200And yet you still keep asking questions...

Let me help you out yet again. The sentences that end with a question mark, i.e. "?" are questions. The sentences that end with a period, i.e. "." are statements, not questions. Here is an example of a statement.

Quote from: Bren;7887931d6 Dingos showed up on a wilderness encounter table and ate Sommerjon's baby.

Do you see the difference?

Note that the above sentence is an example of a question.

Quote from: Sommerjon;789200Hmm lemme see, what did Gary say about that...
[page 91-92]
"All monsters would not and should not possess treasure! The TREASURE TYPES given in the MONSTER MANUAL are the optimums and are meant to consider the maximum number of creatures guarding them. Many of the monsters shown as possessing some form of wealth are quite unlikely to have any at all. This is not a contradiction in the rules, but an admonition to the DM not to give away too much!"
Yep it's a stingy DM. :rolleyes:  

Stingy DM or whiny bitches as players depends on your point of view. The entire issue is one of expectations from both parties.

As a players do you expect hundreds of gold pieces to drop from the corpses of a half dozen goblins?

As a DM should the players have to fully loot six or eight dungeons to gain sufficient treasure to reach 2nd level?

These are both extreme expectations and problems are bound to arise the further apart the players and the DM are on this issue.

Quote from: Sommerjon;789200Couldn't be that people were following what Gary says to do at all.  Evidently we are supposed to be following what was written in one edition to play another edition.
Wow.

No idea what you are babbling about here. All you need for AD&D are the three core books. NO EDITION COMES WITH A COMMON SENSE BUNDLE.

No matter what rule set you buy, you will need to supply your own brain.

Quote from: Sommerjon;789200Ignoring certain dungeons because they have the wrong treasure tables to roll on.  Smart players there.:rolleyes:

Abandoning certain dungeons when the loot looks crappy IS smart play when treasure = XP. Being offered only a single loot poor option for adventure is a railroad and rules can't fix shitty DMs.

Quote from: Sommerjon;789200Not going to buy one edition to play another edition.

Then don't.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217As a DM should the players have to fully loot six or eight dungeons to gain sufficient treasure to reach 2nd level?

Not if they are neutralizing the creatures.  If you are expecting loot to give you an advantage?  Well according to the loot tables, the odds favor that six or eight dungeons.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217No idea what you are babbling about here. All you need for AD&D are the three core books. NO EDITION COMES WITH A COMMON SENSE BUNDLE.

No matter what rule set you buy, you will need to supply your own brain.

You brought up Moldvay, which last time I checked it isn't the only edition of D&D.  If you want to use Moldvay to somehow enhance AD&D, good for you.
In AD&D no where does it say treasure is expected.
[page 91-92]
"All monsters would not and should not possess treasure! The TREASURE TYPES given in the MONSTER MANUAL are the optimums and are meant to consider the maximum number of creatures guarding them. Many of the monsters shown as possessing some form of wealth are quite unlikely to have any at all. This is not a contradiction in the rules, but an admonition to the DM not to give away too much!"
  It only states that treasure is also XP.  There is no percentages of how much treasure is expected per level or dungeon or session or any other criteria you try to use.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217Abandoning certain dungeons when the loot looks crappy IS smart play when treasure = XP. Being offered only a single loot poor option for adventure is a railroad and rules can't fix shitty DMs.

The game states
[page 91-92]
"All monsters would not and should not possess treasure! The TREASURE TYPES given in the MONSTER MANUAL are the optimums and are meant to consider the maximum number of creatures guarding them. Many of the monsters shown as possessing some form of wealth are quite unlikely to have any at all. This is not a contradiction in the rules, but an admonition to the DM not to give away too much!"
that most adventure is going to be a loot poor option.

How far do you go before you determine that the loot is crappy?  Two rooms?  A hallway?  By the creatures inside?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217Then don't.

I don't.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217NO EDITION COMES WITH A COMMON SENSE BUNDLE.

No matter what rule set you buy, you will need to supply your own brain.

Good point.

Also, unlike many video games, table top RPGs don't have a player controlled EASY setting nor a GOD mode code.

I've always found that the treasure tables work fairly well for the types of campaigns I like to run.