What 4th level spells are "world-wrecking"?

Quote from: Cranewings;498144Personally, I'm a big fan of the "game inside the game," E6. I think the most fun way to play the game is to cap level advancement at 6. After sixth, the characters keep learning new feats or whatever, but otherwise it stops.

It's too bad no one ever actually made E6 into a book and published it.

Quote from: Werekoala;498066That way (seems to me) you'd have characters whose powers grew over time, but whe were still fragile enough that you could run a "gritty" campaign with all orcs all the time (or skellies or whatever) and keep the danger levels high without having 20HD zombies or something being needed to pose any kind of threat. You'd have the added bonus of PCs being able to cut through swathes of low-level baddies as their powers/spells/abilites increased, but it would also "keep them honest" in that they wouldn't do it with impunity.

Additionally, this does away with some of the head-scratching that comes along with wondering how gaining experience makes a person as tough as a Sherman Tank eventually.

Think that might work?

It works great. That's how Arduin did it. You got what seemed like a ton of HP when you started, 20-25 give or take. They went up very slowly at level. It offered the benefits you mentioned and also reduced the need for most of the party to be roughly the same level. It's a great rule.

Quote from: CRKrueger;498178What 4th level spells are "world-wrecking"?

4th level MU spells that gave me issues as a DM would be Globe of Invulnerability, Stoneskin, Summon Monster IV, Lesser Geas, Ice Storm, Shout, Wall of Fire, Hallucinatory Terrain, Enervation, and Polymorph. They didn't break the game since I planned from them, but it is an obvious jump up in ability from level 3 spells.

I've observed that a number of near-D&D games follow the pattern of extra HP for beginning characters, but only a small number per level after that.

I may not mistaken on one or two examples but I'm thinking of Palladium 1e, Atlantis/Arcanum, Talislanta, Shades of Fantasy.

I've also seen the houserule that only the 1st level HP (either generated in standard D&D fashion or equal to Con, or something like that) be considered "physical damage capacity" and all subsequent HP be "defense".

"Defense" points in these houserules typically:

1. Are bypassed on critical hits.
2. Regenerate at the end of each combat, or end of each day, or at a very high rate per day.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;498240I've also seen the houserule that only the 1st level HP (either generated in standard D&D fashion or equal to Con, or something like that) be considered "physical damage capacity" and all subsequent HP be "defense".

"Defense" points in these houserules typically:

1. Are bypassed on critical hits.
2. Regenerate at the end of each combat, or end of each day, or at a very high rate per day.

Star Wars D20's got exactly those rules. And I think Modern D20, since SW D20 is really an adaptation of Modern D20 rules for SW verse.

Quote from: Werekoala;498066Think that might work?

Notice that it minimally alters the effectiveness of wizards while completely hosing fighters.

So, basically, no. It won't work.

I recommend E6.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;498327Notice that it minimally alters the effectiveness of wizards while completely hosing fighters.

So, basically, no. It won't work.

I recommend E6.

Bah, so let the wizards be powerful!

It's not like Gandalf was equal to Aragorn.

Yeah, it works fine. It's called Stormbringer.

I love running Stormbringer for this exact reason. PCs can get nasty powerful, but they are still human when it comes to a knife in the gut. Are sorcerers and priests scary powerful? Yeah, its Stormbringer. But there's a nasty price with that power.

If you haven't played Stormbringer, go to eBay and pick up the 2nd or 3rd edition of the game. Great stuff.

Quote from: danbuter;4981944th level MU spells that gave me issues as a DM would be Globe of Invulnerability, Stoneskin, Summon Monster IV, Lesser Geas, Ice Storm, Shout, Wall of Fire, Hallucinatory Terrain, Enervation, and Polymorph. They didn't break the game since I planned from them, but it is an obvious jump up in ability from level 3 spells.

Actually, my spells are Scrying, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, and Discern Lies. I don't mind player characters being strong as much as I mind spells that imply the ancient setting can't exist without stupid shit like lead lined castle walls built on antimagic platforms.

Quote from: Rincewind1;498330Bah, so let the wizards be powerful!

It's not like Gandalf was equal to Aragorn.

booorrriiinnnngggg

Quote from: Cranewings;498382booorrriiinnnngggg

Care to elaborate? I know it's not the first argument ever made on the case, but I honestly at some point (let's be honest, after reading Play Dirty ) never more cared for the balance of classes in my games.

In a class/level system the classes should be fairly balanced, because power level/effectiveness is determined by level. If you want to have a Gandalf/Aragorn situation, just make your Gandalfalike 10 levels higher than your Aragornalike.

Quote from: JDCorley;498485In a class/level system the classes should be fairly balanced, because power level/effectiveness is determined by level. If you want to have a Gandalf/Aragorn situation, just make your Gandalfalike 10 levels higher than your Aragornalike.

Except that he'd also be tougher and probably battle better then Aragorn at that point.

There's a huge difference between allowing wizards to have power beyond mortal comprehension and abilities, and turning them into supercollections.

Well I think the LotR comparison is kinda valid - after all, even though the Fellowship was made up (for the most part) of pretty epic figures, they could still be felled by arrows - if not, those goblin archers (in the movie) could shoot at them all day and Aragorn wouldn't need to duck. Gandalf did too, I'll note. If they didn't have the protection of Story Immunity, I doubt many of them would have made it beyond the first book. So they were very powerful, very competent people who could still be taken down much like any other person.

As to overpowered wizards - enforce the concentration rules, and harry them with arrows or whatehaveyou, and I'd imagine they'll be quite busy trying to avoid getting killed, and lucky to get off a spell or two in a really big fight.