Jacobin magazine has dedicated an article to D&D, where they say that Capitalism has "ruined" RPGs. RPGPundit explains exactly how stupid they are.
#ttrpg #dnd #osr
All I can say is, I sincerely hope WotC disavows their capitalistic past and embraces communism.
Quote from: Zelen on November 07, 2021, 09:35:45 PM
All I can say is, I sincerely hope WotC disavows their capitalistic past and embraces communism.
Honestly the fugly ass art for Magic the Gathering makes me feel like they did that.
Well from the likes of Jacobin magazine, i suppose that level of idiocy is to be expected. I'd say it's the guild system that ruins D&D... at least that's what
the PC thieves in my game would say.
No, no, Pundit, you're obviously wrong, just look at all the marvelous and fun RPGs that came out of the USSR prior to 1988, all the wondrously creative RPGs we're getting from North Corea, China and Cuba!
You're obviously wrong and need to be re-educated!
If you dont want any nasty Capitalism in your DND then you could always play using the OGL.
;)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 07, 2021, 09:58:14 PM
No, no, Pundit, you're obviously wrong, just look at all the marvelous and fun RPGs that came out of the USSR prior to 1988, all the wondrously creative RPGs we're getting from North Corea, China and Cuba!
You're obviously wrong and need to be re-educated!
You beat me to the punch on this. Of course now that we have cited the actual history of Communism/Socialism, cue the: "It wasn't real Communism/Socialism." Parrots.
Such idiots never stop to think how their iPhones were created.
That is a shallow interpretation of D&D imagination already extant. Without even trying you can easily look up very experimental forms of economics and governance in just the Forgotten Realms setting, let alone beyond "patriarchy" and "capitalism." This comes off as agitation propaganda boiler plate, a bad faith question and answer from lazy stenography "journalism."
Click bait for the outrage set of both ctrl left and alt right. What a boring game to play. Why don't people try RPGs instead? D&D anyone? 8)
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on November 07, 2021, 10:47:49 PM
Such idiots never stop to think how their iPhones were created.
By slave labor in China at the behest of Globalist control freaks who want to log your every call, text and internet search?
Reminds me of the moron who insisted that under socialism, game designers would be free to create games they wanted to make and not have to worry about such minutiae as paychecks.
Yeah, I know, it didn't make a lick of sense to me either.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 08, 2021, 08:07:10 AM
Reminds me of the moron who insisted that under socialism, game designers would be free to create games they wanted to make and not have to worry about such minutiae as paychecks quality.
Yeah, I know, it didn't make a lick of sense to me either.
Edit mine. Hope it helps.
Quote from: RandyB on November 08, 2021, 08:38:23 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 08, 2021, 08:07:10 AM
Reminds me of the moron who insisted that under socialism, game designers would be free to create games they wanted to make and not have to worry about such minutiae as paychecks quality.
Yeah, I know, it didn't make a lick of sense to me either.
Edit mine. Hope it helps.
Can't argue that one :)
This weird disconnect in understanding that people desire quality seems to be a repeating issue with lefties, and the gaming genre (RPGs, vidya, what have you) is no different. It's also why so many of them opt for infestation of existing games, rather than making their own; they don't have any creativity or work ethic.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 08, 2021, 08:52:10 AM
Quote from: RandyB on November 08, 2021, 08:38:23 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 08, 2021, 08:07:10 AM
Reminds me of the moron who insisted that under socialism, game designers would be free to create games they wanted to make and not have to worry about such minutiae as paychecks quality.
Yeah, I know, it didn't make a lick of sense to me either.
Edit mine. Hope it helps.
Can't argue that one :)
This weird disconnect in understanding that people desire quality seems to be a repeating issue with lefties, and the gaming genre (RPGs, vidya, what have you) is no different. It's also why so many of them opt for infestation of existing games, rather than making their own; they don't have any creativity or work ethic.
Because when they choose to infest an existing game, someone has already done the difficult creative work for them. Plus, they already have an existing audience to pitch their garbage ideas to.
There would be no RPGs without capitalism. From the get go, Gygax built D&D to sell. If it weren't for capitalism, D&D would have probably never left Arneson's basement.
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 08, 2021, 10:18:40 AM
There would be no RPGs without capitalism. From the get go, Gygax built D&D to sell. If it weren't for capitalism, D&D would have probably never left Arneson's basement.
It goes even further. Without capitalism, there would never have been a Lord of the Rings for Gygax to rip off.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 08, 2021, 08:52:10 AM
Can't argue that one :)
This weird disconnect in understanding that people desire quality seems to be a repeating issue with lefties, and the gaming genre (RPGs, vidya, what have you) is no different. It's also why so many of them opt for infestation of existing games, rather than making their own; they don't have any creativity or work ethic.
If someone is only going to talk about it and virtue signal using it, does it matter if it has no quality? Quality only matters if someone wants to use the thing for its (supposed) intended purpose.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on November 08, 2021, 02:15:13 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 08, 2021, 08:52:10 AM
Can't argue that one :)
This weird disconnect in understanding that people desire quality seems to be a repeating issue with lefties, and the gaming genre (RPGs, vidya, what have you) is no different. It's also why so many of them opt for infestation of existing games, rather than making their own; they don't have any creativity or work ethic.
If someone is only going to talk about it and virtue signal using it, does it matter if it has no quality? Quality only matters if someone wants to use the thing for its (supposed) intended purpose.
I'm... not sure I grok where you're going with that. Are you referring to the well-known issue of SJWs not actually playing games, just bitching about them?
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 08, 2021, 02:21:23 PM
I'm... not sure I grok where you're going with that. Are you referring to the well-known issue of SJWs not actually playing games, just bitching about them?
Yes, and to their attitudes about "tools" in general. They don't work. They don't make anything. They barely use their imaginations in any meaningful way. Why would they care if their tools are crap?
They will get their way. Unless they can paint dragons as "evil capitalists exploiting the weak." Well, probably dragons will need to be destroyed so a commie utopia can be achieved.
No point whining about it. If this is where the left wants RPGs to go, then that is where it will go. End of discussion.
Quote from: DragonBane on November 08, 2021, 07:22:27 PM
They will get their way. Unless they can paint dragons as "evil capitalists exploiting the weak." Well, probably dragons will need to be destroyed so a commie utopia can be achieved.
No point whining about it. If this is where the left wants RPGs to go, then that is where it will go. End of discussion.
Dragons that hoard wealth would probably appear evil to these people.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 08, 2021, 07:29:46 PM
Quote from: DragonBane on November 08, 2021, 07:22:27 PM
They will get their way. Unless they can paint dragons as "evil capitalists exploiting the weak." Well, probably dragons will need to be destroyed so a commie utopia can be achieved.
No point whining about it. If this is where the left wants RPGs to go, then that is where it will go. End of discussion.
Dragons that hoard wealth would probably appear evil to these people.
I've heard them make that claim.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 08, 2021, 07:29:46 PM
Quote from: DragonBane on November 08, 2021, 07:22:27 PM
They will get their way. Unless they can paint dragons as "evil capitalists exploiting the weak." Well, probably dragons will need to be destroyed so a commie utopia can be achieved.
No point whining about it. If this is where the left wants RPGs to go, then that is where it will go. End of discussion.
Dragons that hoard wealth would probably appear evil to these people.
Dragons that hoard wealth are Evil.
They should be putting that capital to work.
I'm going to have a dragonslayer in my next campaign, called Sir Maynard. His escapades will provoke dragons to burn down huge swaths of farmland and cities every few years, and each time he'll claim the devastation would have been much worse without his intervention. His admirers will serve as viziers and chancellors of the exchequer in most of the major kingdoms, creating an endless burn-build cycle.
Quote from: Shasarak on November 08, 2021, 10:48:38 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 08, 2021, 07:29:46 PM
Quote from: DragonBane on November 08, 2021, 07:22:27 PM
They will get their way. Unless they can paint dragons as "evil capitalists exploiting the weak." Well, probably dragons will need to be destroyed so a commie utopia can be achieved.
No point whining about it. If this is where the left wants RPGs to go, then that is where it will go. End of discussion.
Dragons that hoard wealth would probably appear evil to these people.
Dragons that hoard wealth are Evil.
They should be putting that capital to work.
I mean, they're evil because of the methods they use to gather wealth involves death. Lots of death. Burning, Looting, Murdering, and extra burning for good measure. Or if you're a White Dragon and can't cause any form of burn, freezing.
Tolkein portrayed Dragons as people who would have vast, VAST amounts of wealth but not actually spend it. Despite never actually using it for anything (and thus it technically being worthless) they'd get utterly pissed if it was stolen, which is why Smaug decided to burn down Laketown after Bilbo stole a silver cup.
If a Dragon garnered wealth through voluntary transactions (perhaps a Metallic dragon would do that) you'd be hard pressed to call them sleeping on their wealth evil. Just lazy.
Anyway, whenever someone says they hate Capitalism, they are, by proxy, saying that you shouldn't be able to go downtown and buy a cup of coffee.
Every jackass I've heard say that they hate capitalism in gaming seems to love the default Traveller free trader campaign.
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 08, 2021, 11:59:31 PM
If a Dragon garnered wealth through voluntary transactions (perhaps a Metallic dragon would do that) you'd be hard pressed to call them sleeping on their wealth evil. Just lazy.
In a sense, give me your money or I will eat you is a voluntary transaction.
Quote from: PsyXypher on November 08, 2021, 11:59:31 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on November 08, 2021, 10:48:38 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 08, 2021, 07:29:46 PM
Quote from: DragonBane on November 08, 2021, 07:22:27 PM
They will get their way. Unless they can paint dragons as "evil capitalists exploiting the weak." Well, probably dragons will need to be destroyed so a commie utopia can be achieved.
No point whining about it. If this is where the left wants RPGs to go, then that is where it will go. End of discussion.
Dragons that hoard wealth would probably appear evil to these people.
Dragons that hoard wealth are Evil.
They should be putting that capital to work.
I mean, they're evil because of the methods they use to gather wealth involves death. Lots of death. Burning, Looting, Murdering, and extra burning for good measure. Or if you're a White Dragon and can't cause any form of burn, freezing.
Tolkein portrayed Dragons as people who would have vast, VAST amounts of wealth but not actually spend it. Despite never actually using it for anything (and thus it technically being worthless) they'd get utterly pissed if it was stolen, which is why Smaug decided to burn down Laketown after Bilbo stole a silver cup.
If a Dragon garnered wealth through voluntary transactions (perhaps a Metallic dragon would do that) you'd be hard pressed to call them sleeping on their wealth evil. Just lazy.
Anyway, whenever someone says they hate Capitalism, they are, by proxy, saying that you shouldn't be able to go downtown and buy a cup of coffee.
So, according to Tolkien, my AD&D2e wizard is a Dragon? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
My first post here (hello).
I mostly abstain from voicing my opinions online (I am a dirty symmetrist so both sides don't care about what I have to say), but I just have to.
Been there, seen that. I grew up in socialist country in eighties.
RPGs were out of question. Well, most of the fantasy literature was out of question because it was useless product of dirty capitalism and limited publishing resources should be rather used to promote "worthwhile" content (there were party-appointed people who decided what's worthwhile and what's not).
Science fiction was kinda ok, but only kinda, because ya know, USSR was launching cosmonauts into space, so we were allowed to fantasise about that.
So, when I was 12, I remember waiting 4 months to borrow Lord of the Rings trilogy from older brother of my classmate. Forget about getting it in bookstore or public library.
There was no chance of publishing any roleplaying game. In socialism it all depended on the whim of the people who decided what's good for you and what is not. Late into 80s when system started to crumble, somebody independently published rip-offs of Talisman and Citadel of Blood boardgames and we tried to make our own rpgs based on that. English-language Players Handbook was probably worth its weight in gold even thou very few of us knew english back then!
So, from my own experience, no, socialism definitely isn't rpg-friendly system.
As a symmetrist, I have to add, that while capitalism doesn't care, conservatism isn't particularly rpg friendly as well and in eighties I remember rpg clubs banned from public schools "because religion teacher had objections".
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 07, 2021, 09:58:14 PM
No, no, Pundit, you're obviously wrong, just look at all the marvelous and fun RPGs that came out of the USSR prior to 1988, all the wondrously creative RPGs we're getting from North Corea, China and Cuba!
You're obviously wrong and need to be re-educated!
Wrong indeed, since the USSR was a major producer and exporter of RPGs. As well as rifles, sidearms, tanks, and other fun toys beloved all over the world.
Thank you, thank you, I will be here all day! :D
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on November 08, 2021, 06:44:51 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 08, 2021, 02:21:23 PM
I'm... not sure I grok where you're going with that. Are you referring to the well-known issue of SJWs not actually playing games, just bitching about them?
Yes, and to their attitudes about "tools" in general. They don't work. They don't make anything. They barely use their imaginations in any meaningful way. Why would they care if their tools are crap?
OK, I dunno if I hadn't had enough caffeine or not but now it's clear. Thanks :)
But you're absolutely right. Wokeists exist solely to piss in other people's cookpots.
Quote from: Sanson on November 07, 2021, 09:53:24 PM
Well from the likes of Jacobin magazine, i suppose that level of idiocy is to be expected.
Yup.
Quote from: Shasarak on November 08, 2021, 10:48:38 PM
Dragons that hoard wealth are Evil.
They should be putting that capital to work.
Um, they do put all that gold to work. Ever go fishing? A dragon's hoard attracts food in the form of adventurers.
Quote from: Sanson on November 07, 2021, 09:53:24 PM
Well from the likes of Jacobin magazine, i suppose that level of idiocy is to be expected. ....
"The Jacobins, was the most influential political club during the French Revolution of 1789. The period of its political ascendancy includes the Reign of Terror..."Talk about throwing it in our faces...
These guys just can't help themselves, can they!?
Quote from: DragonBane on November 08, 2021, 07:22:27 PM
They will get their way. Unless they can paint dragons as "evil capitalists exploiting the weak." Well, probably dragons will need to be destroyed so a commie utopia can be achieved.
...
All the evils laid at the feet of "Capitalism" are
universal human failings. They are just as prevalent, and in some cases even more so, in every other economic system.
The critiques aimed at Capitalism attack it as if it was a failed value system. But it is only an economic ideal under which you will succeed by your own merits, and you get to keep what you earn. That's it.
It is an ideal that presupposes that the cultures which engage in Capitalism as an economic policy will have/make the necessary morality/laws in place to make it work. As it is an ideal based on the pre-existing moral concepts of fairness and merit.
Whereas Socialism, with its underling conflict theory justifications, presents itself as an economic and moral value system all rolled into one. One who's goal is
equality of outcome, irregardless of any silly bourgeoise notions like merit or fairness.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 09, 2021, 08:07:54 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on November 08, 2021, 06:44:51 PM
Yes, and to their attitudes about "tools" in general. They don't work. They don't make anything. They barely use their imaginations in any meaningful way. Why would they care if their tools are crap?
OK, I dunno if I hadn't had enough caffeine or not but now it's clear. Thanks :)
But you're absolutely right. Wokeists exist solely to piss in other people's cookpots.
Yes, when we say: "Go woke, go broke."
They say: "Your terms are acceptable."
We need to remember that the destruction of the institutions or businesses they have infiltrated, converged, and seek to control is a victory condition for them.
Ideally they would love to ride the desiccated husks of these companies through a series of endless bailouts and corporate refinancing as platforms to spread the narrative and subvert once beloved properties. But burning it all to ashes so that no one else can have it is an acceptable alternative.
They are literally the Vampires from the movie Lost Boys: "They may explode, they may implode, but they will always try to take you down with them."
QuoteThere would be no RPGs without capitalism. From the get go, Gygax built D&D to sell. If it weren't for capitalism, D&D would have probably never left Arneson's basement.
Now the question is also - would there be RPG's without Gygax?
QuoteIt goes even further. Without capitalism, there would never have been a Lord of the Rings for Gygax to rip off.
But Legendarium would exist anyway. And fantasy, sci-fi were written also outside of capitalist countries.
QuoteDragons that hoard wealth are Evil.
They should be putting that capital to work.
When you pursue proper standard of gold, instead of evil immoral inflation based paper money - then hoarding wealth is in fact very good investment.
QuoteAnyway, whenever someone says they hate Capitalism, they are, by proxy, saying that you shouldn't be able to go downtown and buy a cup of coffee.
As long as coffee shop is owned by cooperative of all active workers of given shop, I think any communist will be fine ;)
QuoteSo, according to Tolkien, my AD&D2e wizard is a Dragon? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Evil Dragon.
Quote from: Jaeger on November 09, 2021, 01:22:35 PM
Yes, when we say: "Go woke, go broke."
They say: "Your terms are acceptable."
We need to remember that the destruction of the institutions or businesses they have infiltrated, converged, and seek to control is a victory condition for them.
Ideally they would love to ride the desiccated husks of these companies through a series of endless bailouts and corporate refinancing as platforms to spread the narrative and subvert once beloved properties. But burning it all to ashes so that no one else can have it is an acceptable alternative.
They are literally the Vampires from the movie Lost Boys: "They may explode, they may implode, but they will always try to take you down with them."
Very true. Which is why we have to keep subverting their language, disrupting their actions, and using all their tactics against them; while at the same doing the one thing that they can't: producing quality content.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 07, 2021, 09:58:14 PM
No, no, Pundit, you're obviously wrong, just look at all the marvelous and fun RPGs that came out of the USSR prior to 1988, all the wondrously creative RPGs we're getting from North Corea, China and Cuba!
You're obviously wrong and need to be re-educated!
Communist dictatorships are known for their hardcore LARPing, if you die in the game you die in real life!
Emperors and Kings are known for sending "tax collectors" to collect a "100% wealth tax" from the dragon's hoard, if they have to kill the dragon to get it, so be it!
Yes D&D would be so much more fun if we played characters that sat around on UBI and occasionally picked up a shift at the local coffee shop to get a little extra spending money. We can pretend to sit around and gossip about our coworkers and friends and generally be miserable and bitchy.
D&D adventurers in the sense of going to unexplored or wild regions in order to make a fortune and bring peace and stablity are the entrepreneurial and pioneering spirit. It makes these fucks upset because it makes them feel lazy and worthless -- because they are.
Quote from: KingCheops on November 10, 2021, 10:04:40 AM
Yes D&D would be so much more fun if we played characters that sat around on UBI and occasionally picked up a shift at the local coffee shop to get a little extra spending money. We can pretend to sit around and gossip about our coworkers and friends and generally be miserable and bitchy.
D&D adventurers in the sense of going to unexplored or wild regions in order to make a fortune and bring peace and stablity are the entrepreneurial and pioneering spirit. It makes these fucks upset because it makes them feel lazy and worthless -- because they are.
Even those PCs who are not of a materialistic bent are usually heroic types (think well played paladins and clerics).
The Book of Exalted Deeds, while still a 3.5E book, talks in great detail about heroism and doing good, and I can't help but wonder if that sticks in their craw a bit.
Hey, any Yugoslavians (former) here? I've got one dude on Youtube comments insisting that in Communist Yugoslavia it was a paradise where you could get all the latest pop culture from the USA and you could get anything published.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 10, 2021, 08:10:22 PM
Hey, any Yugoslavians (former) here? I've got one dude on Youtube comments insisting that in Communist Yugoslavia it was a paradise where you could get all the latest pop culture from the USA and you could get anything published.
In the black market? If you were part of the party elites? If you worked in customs and got to confiscate all the goodies and keep them if you didn't get caught?
QuoteHey, any Yugoslavians (former) here? I've got one dude on Youtube comments insisting that in Communist Yugoslavia it was a paradise where you could get all the latest pop culture from the USA and you could get anything published.
Not sure about how formally legal was all this shit, but indeed Yugoslavia - creature independent from Warsaw Pact rule, had opinion of having wide access to Western Goods. I'd call it more grey market than black.
Now of course question is how fast such fashions as RPGs spread there, it's not only matter of communism, but also simply cultural osmosis in countries that does not use English commonly. It would be good to check when first non-English editions of D&D were produced.
In Poland for instance fandom started to organize itself seriously somehow in early 80's after martial law, RPG's started to be promoted I believe around 1993.
So here communism was clearly some hindrace, but question is also what about non-communist countries far from US cultural influence. What about countries that stayed somehow communist after 1990 - Vietnam, China, Belarus, Central Asian post USSR countries, and so on.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 10, 2021, 08:10:22 PM
Hey, any Yugoslavians (former) here? I've got one dude on Youtube comments insisting that in Communist Yugoslavia it was a paradise where you could get all the latest pop culture from the USA and you could get anything published.
I don't think it was a paradise - but apparently many current citizens consider that things were better in Communist Yugoslavia than the modern-day capitalist states. Unlike some post-communist changeovers, the average income has gone down in the former Yugoslavian countries since the break-up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugo-nostalgia
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2015/06/30/were-bosnias-good-ol-days-really-that-good/
https://www.obserwatorfinansowy.pl/in-english/macroeconomics/between-wealth-and-poverty-former-yugoslavia-25-years-after-the-breakup/
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 09:42:35 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 10, 2021, 08:10:22 PM
Hey, any Yugoslavians (former) here? I've got one dude on Youtube comments insisting that in Communist Yugoslavia it was a paradise where you could get all the latest pop culture from the USA and you could get anything published.
I don't think it was a paradise - but apparently many current citizens consider that things were better in Communist Yugoslavia than the modern-day capitalist states. Unlike some post-communist changeovers, the average income has gone down in the former Yugoslavian countries since the break-up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugo-nostalgia
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2015/06/30/were-bosnias-good-ol-days-really-that-good/
https://www.obserwatorfinansowy.pl/in-english/macroeconomics/between-wealth-and-poverty-former-yugoslavia-25-years-after-the-breakup/
Well, that was predictable.....
Quote from: jeff37923 on November 11, 2021, 01:36:26 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 09:42:35 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 10, 2021, 08:10:22 PM
Hey, any Yugoslavians (former) here? I've got one dude on Youtube comments insisting that in Communist Yugoslavia it was a paradise where you could get all the latest pop culture from the USA and you could get anything published.
I don't think it was a paradise - but apparently many current citizens consider that things were better in Communist Yugoslavia than the modern-day capitalist states. Unlike some post-communist changeovers, the average income has gone down in the former Yugoslavian countries since the break-up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugo-nostalgia
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2015/06/30/were-bosnias-good-ol-days-really-that-good/
https://www.obserwatorfinansowy.pl/in-english/macroeconomics/between-wealth-and-poverty-former-yugoslavia-25-years-after-the-breakup/
Well, that was predictable.....
Greetings!
*LAUGHING*! Ahh, so true, heh, Jeff?
I just imagined you saying that in kind of a dead-pan tone, and it made me choke on my coffee laughing. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Are the people nostalgic for Soviet-era Yugoslavia old enough to remember those years?
I read a little book a while back. I've completely forgotten its name, or the author. But it was a series of stories that recounted the horrors of life behind the Iron Curtain, written by someone who lived through that period, and based on the stories she ferreted out from other people who were old enough to remember. The book itself was explicitly a reaction to the romanticization of the Soviet era by the younger generation. She was trying to warn people, before it was too late. One of the things the forward pointed out was that the older generation had grown up in an era where they had learned the hard way to keep their mouths shut. Combined with their natural inclination to spare their children from the horrors they experienced, the stories had simply not been passed down. The result was a generation who were unfamiliar with how horrible the things really were, and thus were susceptible to the siren call of false nostalgia and the pseudonationalic lure of imagined glories of the past.
The entire story of the human race is one of morons who never learn from anyone else's pain but our own.
The stove was hot for them but it will not be for me because I'm special and smarter and know how to touch it. Just remove this barrier in the way, it's inefficient anyway, it makes it hard to even reach it.
We will touch it so much better than SHIT! I'm burnt! Someone Help me! This is really messed up! Why would you let me touch it? OMG this hurts! Why is this a thing? We need to make sure people can't just touch it. Let's build a barrier to it.
It just repeats over and over from the beginning until the end.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 10, 2021, 08:10:22 PMHey, any Yugoslavians (former) here? I've got one dude on Youtube comments insisting that in Communist Yugoslavia it was a paradise where you could get all the latest pop culture from the USA and you could get anything published.
Neighbour, not inhabitant, but... Yugoslavia was one of the more bearable communist regimes, and its inhabitants enjoyed some privileges.
1) It was an independent state, not a conquered and humiliated Soviet satellite. That made for a different national mentality, and a lot more manouevring room in politics and economic policy.
2) The Yugoslav model of the economy was based on worker councils running companies instead of relentless top-down planning. No, it did not work (and neither did a lot of the employees, har har), but it was often more comfortable than the alternatives. A few Yugoslavian companies were very good (competing on western markets without difficulty); most were very crappy.
3) There was relative freedom of movement. Yugoslavian citizens could travel to the west, and even work there as temporary workers. This was unthinkable elsewhere.
4) Access to western goods and culture was certainly better than any other socialist country, including Hungary (which was also relatively open).
5) Freedom of speech was slightly better than most other socialist countries, and much better than hellholes like Romania and Albania. All things being relative.
6) From the POV of people from the less developed republics, there were enormous federal transfers to modernise them, which was an advantage. (Coincidentally, this is why also why annexing Bosnia was such a foolish venture for the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy: we poured enormous piles of money in there to build basic infrastructure and a modern state, and did not see a red cent back.) Serbia, while not very developed, benefited from being the "ruling" republic where the capital was, and was placated with political influence.
And the caveats:
1) Yugoslavia was a federal state, whose member republics and two autonomous provinces ranged from highly developed almost-western Slovenia, touristy Croatia, to barely industrialised Macedonia and Kosovo. There were enormous development differences, so anything said about "Yugoslavia" may only be true for a smaller slice of it.
2) Yugoslavia went almost bankrupt in the early 1980s, going through hyperinflation and mass unemployment before the rest of the socialist bloc. This was papered over by allowing people to work abroad and bring home salaries in western currencies (a MAJOR advantage), but most of it was as dysfunctional as any other socialist state.
3) It ended really, really badly, which is why, in contrast, people tend to be so nostalgic about it. Slovenia and Croatia are doing quite well, Serbia, Montenegro and [Northern] Macedonia so-so; and Bosnia / Kosovo are essentially failed states.
All things considered, it was relatively better than most alternatives (Yugoslavians were generally envied by their neighbours...), and there is an enormous halo of nostalgia around it because the War and its aftermath were so terrible for the average person. It was somewhat liveable and less restricted, a bit like Francoist Spain, but with crappier economics. But to consider it any kind of success is, nah.
I would like to see the time period the tankie is waxing nostalgic for, too. The years right up to the collapse of the U.S.S.R. saw a lot of penetration into the eastern European markets by Western goods and culture, thanks to glasnost.
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 09:42:35 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 10, 2021, 08:10:22 PM
Hey, any Yugoslavians (former) here? I've got one dude on Youtube comments insisting that in Communist Yugoslavia it was a paradise where you could get all the latest pop culture from the USA and you could get anything published.
I don't think it was a paradise - but apparently many current citizens consider that things were better in Communist Yugoslavia than the modern-day capitalist states. Unlike some post-communist changeovers, the average income has gone down in the former Yugoslavian countries since the break-up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugo-nostalgia
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2015/06/30/were-bosnias-good-ol-days-really-that-good/
https://www.obserwatorfinansowy.pl/in-english/macroeconomics/between-wealth-and-poverty-former-yugoslavia-25-years-after-the-breakup/
Quote from: Pat on November 11, 2021, 02:49:16 AM
Are the people nostalgic for Soviet-era Yugoslavia old enough to remember those years?
I read a little book a while back. I've completely forgotten its name, or the author. But it was a series of stories that recounted the horrors of life behind the Iron Curtain, written by someone who lived through that period, and based on the stories she ferreted out from other people who were old enough to remember. The book itself was explicitly a reaction to the romanticization of the Soviet era by the younger generation.
Pat - you're talking about the Iron Curtain in general, but as the links I gave document - and as Melan discussed in his post, the experience of older Yugoslavians has been very different from the experience of, say, older East Germans. Prior to the division, Germany had been a major colonial power - and it was kept apart only by external forces. After the reunification, East Germans saw a rise in their fortunes - plus the dismantling of the Soviet-backed secret police.
By contrast, Yugoslavia had always been a poor backwater. In Yugoslavia, the older generation saw the country that they grew up in torn apart, ravaged by war and ethnic cleansing, and saw a decline in average income in much of the country - especially Bosnia and Kosovo. I had a former coworker who was Croatian, who had come out OK, but then he was lucky (as he put it).
Pundit asked specifically about Yugoslavia, so I tried to answer specifically about such. I know a bunch of people who grew up behind the Iron Curtain, including a woman from East Germany I was with for three years. They are all generally anti-Soviet, but they had differing views on the details.
Quote from: jhkim on November 11, 2021, 02:27:19 PM
Pat - you're talking about the Iron Curtain in general, but as the links I gave document - and as Melan discussed in his post, the experience of older Yugoslavians has been very different from the experience of, say, older East Germans. Prior to the division, Germany had been a major colonial power - and it was kept apart only by external forces. After the reunification, East Germans saw a rise in their fortunes - plus the dismantling of the Soviet-backed secret police.
By contrast, Yugoslavia had always been a poor backwater. In Yugoslavia, the older generation saw the country that they grew up in torn apart, ravaged by war and ethnic cleansing, and saw a decline in average income in much of the country - especially Bosnia and Kosovo. I had a former coworker who was Croatian, who had come out OK, but then he was lucky (as he put it).
Pundit asked specifically about Yugoslavia, so I tried to answer specifically about such. I know a bunch of people who grew up behind the Iron Curtain, including a woman from East Germany I was with for three years. They are all generally anti-Soviet, but they had differing views on the details.
Melan's post was useful. Yours was just Wikipedia and other links, and this new post of yours is a meaningless "different things are different" that doesn't seem related to anything I wrote. The book I referenced was not about the Iron Curtain in some general abstract sense or East Germany in particular, as you're falsely stating and implying. It was a series of specific stories from specific regions and countries that fell under that rubric. I was pretty clear I didn't remember a lot of the specifics, and I don't recall if it included Yugoslavia, but the stories that composed it were from the full range of Soviet Bloc countries, from the most repressive to the loosest.
I wish I could remember the name of the book or the author. It made an impression on me, but I'm having a hard time finding it in searches.
Alexey Pazhitnov created Tetris in spite of communism. I'm guessing he wishes he got some money for his creation.
My experience is with East Germans in the 90s but the younger folks jumped right in and embraced capitalism. The older East Germans seemed to prefer Communism because they were afraid they might not succeed at this late point in their life.