Quote from: SHARK on April 18, 2023, 04:36:29 AM
I get what they are doing--and what you're saying--but the whole idea of you being a "Half X" but somehow being restricted to picking only traits from one parent...is prima facie absurd. Normal, natural biological dynamics demonstrate to us that mixed offspring clearly--and typically--gain attributes from both parents.

A problem with this is that if there are natural biological dynamics, then one would expect the races of the fantasy world to be a spectrum of differences with no sharp lines, just like human genetic traits in the real world. There should be all sorts of mixed race characters, blending different traits.

If most characters (PC and NPC) are only from a small set of pure races, with only a few exceptional half-race characters, then it's very unlike the real world.

Quote from: Venka on April 18, 2023, 02:38:31 PM
I think you could defend any of these ideas:

1- Have a half- template for each half breed you decide both exists and is playable as a PC.  This is what has always been done, and why every player's handbook in the AD&D line has had a half-elf, and many have had a half-orc.

Quote from: Venka on April 18, 2023, 02:38:31 PM
I think (1) is the best option.  It allows for fine grained control, makes the most sense, allows for each DM to simply checkbox allow/ban things that work in their game world without impinging on other systems, is tried and true, and can be balanced easily, and is arguably realistic enough.  But a lot of other things do work.

First of all, I think you're overstating the half-races. OD&D, BECMI and other variations were important during the TSR era, and they never had half-races. Half-orc wasn't present in AD&D 2e (TSR) or D&D 4e (WotC).

The problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.

Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM
The problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.

Naw. I have half-dwarves in some campaigns, but never felt the need to detail them as a PC option.

Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM
First of all, I think you're overstating the half-races. OD&D, BECMI and other variations were important during the TSR era, and they never had half-races.

True, but I did specify the AD&D branch for this.

QuoteHalf-orc wasn't present in AD&D 2e (TSR)

It actually was, as there was a little conversion booklet that I can no longer find, that specified how to bring 1e stuff into 2e- this was released around the time 2e came out, and let you play a half orc in the upcoming 2e.  However, if you didn't like those rules, then you'd have to wait four years or so for the Complete Book of Humanoids to add in Half-Orc, Half-Ogre, a whole bunch of other misfits, including I think Mongrelmen!

Quoteor D&D 4e (WotC)

Now this one I was just wrong on, I thought half orcs were there from the start of 4ed and they absolutely were not, my bad.  They were in the PHB2, eight months later, but that definitely meant that you couldn't play a half-orc at 4ed launch.

QuoteThe problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.

This isn't actually an issue though, because (a) you can sell more splatbullshit this way, (b) if done correctly your game masters can homebrew whatever is needed, (c) only a vanishingly few GMs want more than the basic mixes anyway.  Not knowing what racial powers a gnome/dwarf is clearly not a big deal because I don't see people homebrewing it.  Is there any reason that every possible combination must be hammered out, or should exist?  It's easy to make a case for a half-elf, half-orc, or half-ogre.  But beyond that, how often do you need it in your games?

And definitely, this should not be used as an argument against the idea in general.  The lack of a golbin/elf template rule doesn't mean anything as regards a half-elf.

Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM

The problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.

LOL WUT!?

Only IF you're planing on having ALL the races as PC options, speaking as a developer (unpublished yet but still) that would be madness.

What you (and Venka) fail to consider is the optimal solution:

Have #1 for a handful of options, then have #2 for the GM to create whatever special snowflake he wants to.

So, I as the designer don't have to get institutionalized for trying to do what you suggest is the ONLY alternative AND the GM/Players get all the variety they might wish, including any future races added to the game.

Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM
First of all, I think you're overstating the half-races. OD&D, BECMI and other variations were important during the TSR era, and they never had half-races. Half-orc wasn't present in AD&D 2e (TSR) or D&D 4e (WotC).

Point of order; Half-Orcs (and Gnomes) were added within eight months of 4E's release in the same book (PHB2) with the barbarian, bard, druid and sorcerer; providing every core 3e option to players (monk was available via the website before the PHB2 even came out, though it wouldn't be in a physical book until PHB3).

4E gets enough of a bad rap as it is... no sense piling lies on top.

Related to the topic though is that, like half-elves in 4E, 4E half-orcs also had their own unique hybrid traits (including the hybrid vigor Con bonus) that didn't quite match up with either parent.

That's something that is lost with either WotC's pick one in whole or a "pick some of column A and some of column B"... the unique interactions that can occur in hybrid species (ex. Ligers are typically larger than either the lions or tigers they are hybrids of).

Greetings!

Yeah, in my Thandor world, I have a selection of prominent "Half X" races. I don't bother with statistical profiles *for every possible race-mixed combination possible*. It isn't necessary. The answer can simply be "NO. Those race mixed characters are not available to Player Characters." Most players are content to select from what the DM tells them is available, period. Conceptually, however, I do have a statistic profile for a kind of generic "Human and X" mixture, which is modest, but sufficient for whatever other half breeds I come up with, or even a legitimate NPC or Player Character that is somehow 50% Human, 25% Elf, and 25% Ogre. Or some unusual race combination, that regardless of the outlandish or crazy origins, may nonetheless provide some kind of unusual attributes or traits. So, I can do it. The weirder race combinations are, of course, more generic and simplified, so they are not as particularly "good" or extensive as the more mainstream "Half X" races in Thandor. That choice is by design, too. I have a built-in discouragement for players wanting to try and concoct some ridiculous race mixed character in hopes of gaming some crazy advantage. NO. This is what you get, if you don't want the standard selections.

That is also because yeah, actually trying to come up with all the different "Half X" races would be extremely difficult, and laborious. I think I also mentioned earlier in this thread or maybe another thread, that I did my own research into this very type of process--and at least going by standardized 5E rules and frameworks, there really are only room--mechanically speaking--for somewhere between 8 and 10 or 12 "Half X" races, before reaching a negative return dynamic where such a race is actually burdened with more negatives than positives--or zeroes out, and thus mechanically becomes more or less identical to a "Half X" race profile that already exists. Creating more "Half X" races beyond the optimum number ratio mechanically thus becomes redundant and cookie-cutterish, which then means you have multiple "Half " races that share the same mechanical profiles, but differ only in fluff text. That is ultimately what happens to "Half X" races when you exceed the optimum number ratio of about 8 to 12.

So, there is no need to really worry about creating hordes of different "Half X" races with distinct profiles.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 02:32:37 PMAre you here to discuss RPGs, or just to be an ass?  If it's the latter, I'll just put you on my ignore list and be done with it.

In the real universe, the one we live in, not only do we not have a jot of evidence for a divine source for the creation of life (not rubbishing your personal belief here, but you're the one dropping it on me as an incontestable gotcha,) but life in the real universe has an evidential chain of evolution going back billions of years to the most simple microbes, whereas in D&D the gods just made Humans, boom, from nothing.

Your entire argument is subjective, and relies on axiomatic statements.

Quote from: Venka on April 18, 2023, 04:17:47 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM
The problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.

This isn't actually an issue though, because (a) you can sell more splatbullshit this way, (b) if done correctly your game masters can homebrew whatever is needed, (c) only a vanishingly few GMs want more than the basic mixes anyway.  Not knowing what racial powers a gnome/dwarf is clearly not a big deal because I don't see people homebrewing it.  Is there any reason that every possible combination must be hammered out, or should exist?  It's easy to make a case for a half-elf, half-orc, or half-ogre.  But beyond that, how often do you need it in your games?

To be clear - there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elf and half-orc were put into AD&D1 out of shallow copying of Tolkien. There isn't any internal logic to D&D that makes those half-races special, nor is there any special game balance reason for those two compared to any other half-races.

I think shallow copying of Tolkien is a problem for a lot of fantasy gaming, D&D included. It's more interesting to drop those assumptions and make one's D&D world its own thing.

By coincidence, a few weeks before the WotC announcement, I was trying to justify half-races in my own D&D world. I had to jump through some hoops to rework my cosmology to make those half-races special, as there wasn't anything in the standard D&D background/cosmology to justify it. The only real reason for my doing so was because I made compatibility with the core game a priority in my world design.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 05:58:23 PM
whereas in D&D the gods just made Humans, boom, from nothing.

Surely this depends on the campaign setting. Some are ambiguous (I'd put Greyhawk there), some clearly do have divine creators eg the 4e D&D world, some have natural evolution eg Wilderlands, and probably Mystara.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 18, 2023, 04:25:12 PMLigers are typically larger than either the lions or tigers they are hybrids of

Bred for its skills in magic.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 18, 2023, 12:44:46 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 12:20:12 AM
I'm torn on this.  On the one hand, I've never liked half races in D&D or even other fantasy RPGs.  My understanding is that they're not just different races of humanity, they're different species, thus they should not be able to produce offspring.  Okay, maybe donkeylike infertile offspring if they're really close genetically, but my impression is that they're not.  They also blur the distinctiveness of the races, which makes getting a clear idea of what each one is like more difficult.  AFIAC half-races don't add anything beneficial to the game.

The thing that all this talk about genetic compatibility seems to be missing is...

magic

And also humans cross breeding with magical creatures like fey (such as Elves), demons and angels is already established in real life folklore. So including them in D&D isn't such a far fetched concept, cuz this ain't sci-fi.

Nothing new here of course ... this conversation has been had innumerable times .  As in everything it's a matter of personal preference.  I don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing.  Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean I want to throw baseline nature out the window.  I'll happily do so for a good reason, but every departure from real life has a cost in verisimilitude and player connection to the world.  In the case of half races, I just don't think it's worth it.  They don't add anything to the game that can't be done better by having actually different races.

The bit about folklore is a reasonable point, and I'd included half races if I'm trying to emulate some specific folklore setting, but otherwise still no.

Normally I'd say yes, but in this case using magic to create or alter things (including living ones) is an established trope in fiction and mythology going back thousands of years, as well as a plausible use of magic. So saying that half-races can exist in a magic setting "because magic" actually works in this case. Granted, stuff should always fit the setting rather forced into it, "because magic".

Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 06:04:01 PM
To be clear - there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elf and half-orc were put into AD&D1 out of shallow copying of Tolkien. There isn't any internal logic to D&D that makes those half-races special, nor is there any special game balance reason for those two compared to any other half-races.

Agree with you that there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elves were 100% in OD&D.

Half-Elves: Half-elves are half elven and half human, and as such they gain some abilities from each heritage. Half-elves are able to progress simultaneously in both the fighter and magic-user classes and may use both weaponry and spells and otherwise act as elves do.

And while your opinions that it was a shallow copying of Tolkien are your own and legit discussion points, contrary to what you are saying there were game balance decisions in the form of level limits and even how experience was acquired.

Off-topic but I also enjoy that in a text released in 1975, heritage was used interchangeably with the term race

Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 06:04:01 PM

Quote from: Venka on April 18, 2023, 04:17:47 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM
The problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.

This isn't actually an issue though, because (a) you can sell more splatbullshit this way, (b) if done correctly your game masters can homebrew whatever is needed, (c) only a vanishingly few GMs want more than the basic mixes anyway.  Not knowing what racial powers a gnome/dwarf is clearly not a big deal because I don't see people homebrewing it.  Is there any reason that every possible combination must be hammered out, or should exist?  It's easy to make a case for a half-elf, half-orc, or half-ogre.  But beyond that, how often do you need it in your games?

To be clear - there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elf and half-orc were put into AD&D1 out of shallow copying of Tolkien. There isn't any internal logic to D&D that makes those half-races special, nor is there any special game balance reason for those two compared to any other half-races.

I think shallow copying of Tolkien is a problem for a lot of fantasy gaming, D&D included. It's more interesting to drop those assumptions and make one's D&D world its own thing.

By coincidence, a few weeks before the WotC announcement, I was trying to justify half-races in my own D&D world. I had to jump through some hoops to rework my cosmology to make those half-races special, as there wasn't anything in the standard D&D background/cosmology to justify it. The only real reason for my doing so was because I made compatibility with the core game a priority in my world design.

I greatly prefer to take my races/peoples from folklore. Half-elves exist in folklore, as do half-trolls. Needless to say, Nordic trolls are completely different from the ones in D&D and come in all shapes and sizes. I don't know where the notion that elves have pointed ears comes from. I have not found it mentioned in any medieval Nordic or Irish text.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on April 19, 2023, 09:18:41 AM
I don't know where the notion that elves have pointed ears comes from. I have not found it mentioned in any medieval Nordic or Irish text.

It's because they have such a sharp sense of hearing. 

ETA: seriously though, the apparent origin is that the fey were believed to always have some flaw in their human guise that revealed their fey nature. Pointed ears were just one of many possibilities that included animal parts (feet, eyes, horns, tails), the wrong number of digits, or limbs attached backwards.

Pointed ears were just one of the easiest traits to both draw and make costuming for and so became the traditional way to depict fey because it was the easiest on illustrators and theater productions.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 19, 2023, 09:01:31 AM

Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 06:04:01 PM
To be clear - there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elf and half-orc were put into AD&D1 out of shallow copying of Tolkien. There isn't any internal logic to D&D that makes those half-races special, nor is there any special game balance reason for those two compared to any other half-races.

Agree with you that there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elves were 100% in OD&D.

Half-Elves: Half-elves are half elven and half human, and as such they gain some abilities from each heritage. Half-elves are able to progress simultaneously in both the fighter and magic-user classes and may use both weaponry and spells and otherwise act as elves do.

And while your opinions that it was a shallow copying of Tolkien are your own and legit discussion points, contrary to what you are saying there were game balance decisions in the form of level limits and even how experience was acquired.

My apologies about OD&D. I missed that it had half-elves.

I think we might be miscommunicating about game balance. I'm not saying there wasn't any game balance at all in the game. I was saying that there wasn't a game balance reason for only half-elves as opposed to half-dwarves or other half-races - i.e. mixed parentage of dwarf, elf, giant, god, etc.

In folklore (i.e. not Tolkien), I haven't done a survey, but I suspect there are more half-dwarf characters like Ortnit than half-elf. The reason for exclusively half-elves is Tolkien.