Quote from: Festus on April 13, 2023, 09:50:59 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 13, 2023, 08:42:45 PM

Quote from: Festus on April 13, 2023, 08:14:22 PM
I hope that's hyperbole, because anyone with a PhD in Math who can't grasp how to make a 5e character should surrender their degree stat. Ten year olds do it all the time.

Hollywood has spun the myth that being wired for hard math makes people a genius, whereas a lot of such people are hyper-specialized to the point of being useless at everything else. Much like being a chess grand master means you're fantastic at memorization, rather than a tactical genius who can bring down governments.

Nevertheless, anyone who has successfully navigated ~20+ years of education kindergarten through grad school should be able to choose standard array, a race, a class, and add single digit numbers together. You don't even have to roll HP since every 1st level character starts with the max. And if that's just too damn hard, D&D Beyond will do it all for you point and click. There's plenty to dislike about 5e and I can see deciding that the time spent creating a custom character isn't worth the effort. But complaining that character creation is overly complex is absurd. Sounds more like a player who can't be bothered than one who is overwhelmed.

Greetings!

Yeah, Festus. That's right. Character creation in 5E *can* be super easy and fast--However, if you use the Xanathar and Tasha's, as I recall, Character creation can easily take frigging *hours and hours*--though, admittedly, such a character will be gar more detailed and provided with depth--the character will also, incidentally, gain character pages extending to 3, 4, 5, or 6 pages, maybe more. Also potentially having a multi-page "Backstory" depending on how you go about writing all the stuff up.

The process isn't complicated, but it is time consuming, partially interesting and partially a pain in the ass--but also a huge hammer to the head for getting the character killed in the first hour of adventuring.

I love detail, and depth, I really do--but spending 5, 6 hours or more rolling up many tables, developing all kinds of details, then coordinating and writing up some kind of cohesive background that makes all of those rolls and details integrated and making sense--just to have the character get swallowed by a giant alligator or something in the first hour or so of the adventure...yeah, that's painful, and frustrating.

Ultimately, I have grown a strong passion for quick and dirty backgrounds, like 1 paragraph. 6 to 9 sentences, that's it.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Festus on April 13, 2023, 09:50:59 PMSounds more like a player who can't be bothered than one who is overwhelmed.

That's closer to the truth, IMO. My wife's very intelligent, but her eyes glaze at character creation, and I always have to painstakingly walk her through every detail. Whereas I, no more intelligent than she is, love learning mechanics, and perfectly sculpting my characters.

There are different kinds of smart I guess, probably a lot of it is driven by predilections.

I will say this, I've made characters for a llloootttttt of systems and settings, and 5E is painful. For some reason I find it to be like reading a Stereo manual, and it makes me go snow-blind. Which is weird, because I've definitely made characters in clunkier and more complex systems.

I think some of it may be it's so god damn boring, and needlessly convoluted. YMMV though.

Some character creation is imagination, some is grokking the system, and some is accounting.  Most people into RPGs love the first, have a love/hate relationship with the second, and hate the third.  Moreover, your tolerances change with the system, experience, and general crankiness of age.

I think a couple of you may be talking past each other.

The problem with 5E isn't creating the character, it's optimizing it. I don't mean minmaxing, but just setting up a build that isn't going to limit you or force your party to carry you through encounters. This is a common issue as an RPG's complexity increases, but it's particularly egregious in 5E which was supposed to dial the complexity back a notch or two.

5e is amazing in that its got tons of options few of which matter, but munchkins can significantly get ahead anyway.

5e is my most unfavored edition.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 13, 2023, 10:39:33 PM
I will say this, I've made characters for a llloootttttt of systems and settings, and 5E is painful. For some reason I find it to be like reading a Stereo manual, and it makes me go snow-blind. Which is weird, because I've definitely made characters in clunkier and more complex systems.

I think some of it may be it's so god damn boring, and needlessly convoluted. YMMV though.

It is a pain in the ass. I had to help three rambunctious 10-year-olds make characters and that took forever. And that was with me trying to simplify and curtail options. When making a character for myself it takes just as long, and I feel like I'm constantly having to flip between different sections of multiple books more than with other games.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 12:39:55 PM
It all makes sense when you realize wokists worship at the feet of some groups, but actively loathe and attack Christians. Christianity, White Supremacy, Patriarchy, it's a connected web of evil to them.

Which is weird because the woke are the ones pushing some of the most racist ideas and pushing segregation and racial hatred. They push that the handicapped should stay handicapped and all the other vileness.

If they were really serious about it, they would be getting rid of Half-Dragons (Dragonborn), Half-Giants (Goliaths), and Half-Devils (Tieflings) along with the rest.

What they actually are doing is virtue signaling.

I think they are just trying to do away with the concept so the game won't end up the numerous racial fractions.

Example:

character 1 is a human

character 2 is a kobold

character 3 is 22% human, 3% elf, 14% dragonborn, 17% aarakocra, 22% dwarf, 18% halfing, and 4% storm giant.

While WoTC would have been fine with that, that all wouldn't fit on the character sheet, and programming the VTT software for it is just too hard. So instead the whole thing is racist and canceled.

Question:

Has anyone seen anyone on social media, in person, etc cheering this change?

I just find it odd and I don't see people talking about it.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 17, 2023, 11:29:44 AM
Has anyone seen anyone on social media, in person, etc cheering this change?

Of course.  While most of the responses on reddit are solid, there's definitely some people who agree in some way even there:
https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/12cjl7c/eli5_why_is_wotc_removing_the_halfelf_and_halforc/

Reddit generally will go along with whatever social justice fad is happening- many favored a "morality clause" to try to strip rights from people they disagreed with, they just didn't like WotC trying to shove that into the OGL.  But even they don't buy being called racist for wanting half-elves and half-orcs in their books.

The thing is, they will.  As the editions come closer, the screws will be turned on the subreddits, and using the term "race" will get you shadowbanned or your post removed, much as they have bots to search out and silently deleted posts calling things "retarded".  This will be done slowly so as to force compliance or kick people out in small batches so they don't actually form a community anywhere else, and then soon enough it will be racist to call an elf a race, or to use the term "half-elf" because it's now "problematic".  It's just a matter of time.

Quote from: Venka on April 17, 2023, 12:06:18 PM
Of course.  While most of the responses on reddit are solid, there's definitely some people who agree in some way even there:
https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/12cjl7c/eli5_why_is_wotc_removing_the_halfelf_and_halforc/

Reddit generally will go along with whatever social justice fad is happening- many favored a "morality clause" to try to strip rights from people they disagreed with, they just didn't like WotC trying to shove that into the OGL.  But even they don't buy being called racist for wanting half-elves and half-orcs in their books.

The thing is, they will.  As the editions come closer, the screws will be turned on the subreddits, and using the term "race" will get you shadowbanned or your post removed, much as they have bots to search out and silently deleted posts calling things "retarded".  This will be done slowly so as to force compliance or kick people out in small batches so they don't actually form a community anywhere else, and then soon enough it will be racist to call an elf a race, or to use the term "half-elf" because it's now "problematic".  It's just a matter of time.

Huh, interesting.

I don't pay any attention to Reddit and really how many of the people on there are actual gamers and how many are just SJWs acting as gamers to push their agenda?

Quote from: overstory on April 16, 2023, 02:46:58 PM
I think they are just trying to do away with the concept so the game won't end up the numerous racial fractions.

Example:

character 1 is a human

character 2 is a kobold

character 3 is 22% human, 3% elf, 14% dragonborn, 17% aarakocra, 22% dwarf, 18% halfing, and 4% storm giant.

While WoTC would have been fine with that, that all wouldn't fit on the character sheet, and programming the VTT software for it is just too hard. So instead the whole thing is racist and canceled.

Which games were these where you had that kind of idiocy?

This is stupid, and WotC should feel bad about it.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 17, 2023, 12:12:05 PM

Quote from: Venka on April 17, 2023, 12:06:18 PM
Of course.  While most of the responses on reddit are solid, there's definitely some people who agree in some way even there:
https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/12cjl7c/eli5_why_is_wotc_removing_the_halfelf_and_halforc/

Reddit generally will go along with whatever social justice fad is happening- many favored a "morality clause" to try to strip rights from people they disagreed with, they just didn't like WotC trying to shove that into the OGL.  But even they don't buy being called racist for wanting half-elves and half-orcs in their books.

The thing is, they will.  As the editions come closer, the screws will be turned on the subreddits, and using the term "race" will get you shadowbanned or your post removed,

I don't pay any attention to Reddit and really how many of the people on there are actual gamers and how many are just SJWs acting as gamers to push their agenda?

WotC has already walked back Crawford's statement, as I noted in reply #139. As shown by the OGL fiasco, players will push back over certain things. WotC has some influence, but it only goes so far.