Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 01:37:49 PMWhat is even the point then?

To hang out, drink a beer, chat a bit. TTRPGs are not the exception. They are the normal and with the popularization of 5e are now more normal.
Its for the same reason people go see sequel's or watch a series that's familiar but lacking all zest after 7 seasons. Most people do indeed do anything as just a side excuse to relax. This includes boardgames, videogames, etc.

5e is the Monopoly of TTRPGs. It's not really great but exposure means it's ok. There are way better games to play given in its category of complexity but those are niche because popularity doesn't breed refinement or improvement.

Actually engaging with a hobby is a niche.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 01:37:49 PMWhy are ttrpgs such an outlier in that respect?

Because you actually have to sit down and read the damn thing, internalize the rules and interpret them, rather than just bash a few keys on some type of controller and learn as you play along. The learning curve and barrier of entry to get into TTRPGs is far bigger than for video games or board games. And you don't even get cool visual aids to help you along. Even if you have miniatures and game terrain, that's almost a separate hobby on its own, with its own steep barrier of entry (both, in artistic skills and monetary investment to get all that extra stuff) that doesn't directly aid learning the game, just visualize the game world (and arguably gets in the way of even that, when it doesn't match the situations or stuff present during play).

But anyone can just plug and play a video game, and learn through trial and error really quick. And board game rules tend to be really simple and condensed compared to TTRPGs.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 10, 2023, 04:04:29 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 01:37:49 PMWhy are ttrpgs such an outlier in that respect?

Because you actually have to sit down and read the damn thing, internalize the rules and interpret them, rather than just bash a few keys on some type of controller and learn as you play along. The learning curve and barrier of entry to get into TTRPGs is far bigger than for video games or board games. And you don't even get cool visual aids to help you along. Even if you have miniatures and game terrain, that's almost a separate hobby on its own, with its own steep barrier of entry (both, in artistic skills and monetary investment to get all that extra stuff) that doesn't directly aid learning the game, just visualize the game world (and arguably gets in the way of even that, when it doesn't match the situations or stuff present during play).

But anyone can just plug and play a video game, and learn through trial and error really quick. And board game rules tend to be really simple and condensed compared to TTRPGs.

You don't really require ANY artistic skills or much money to have terrain and minis: https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1645509651499196416

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 12:53:11 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 09:42:41 AMI find it incredibly frustrating. I suspect a key part of the problem is that these rules are often extremely complicated, which creates sunk cost fallacy.

Possibly, but I also suspect that something like 30% of all TTRPG players aren't there for the mechanics but for the idea of imagination fighting (and 40% are just there to chill). Mechanics are something they put up with to engage with the idea at all.

Its the niche crowd that even cares about the idea of mechanics or refining their core experience, or homebrewing or experimentation. D&D is like 70% of the market? Again checks out.

As someone who hasn't been primarily a D&D player, I do find it frustrating. However, in the bigger picture, I generally find that blaming the masses for having the wrong taste doesn't get me anywhere.

I agree that many if not most D&D players aren't invested in the mechanics -- but they still want robust mechanics to exist. There have been lots of efforts at more rules-light RPGs, and none of them have had mass-market success to rival D&D. The closest rivals to D&D have been World of Darkness and Pathfinder, which are still multi-hundred page tomes.

The learning curve is a hurdle, but it's one that most players prefer to go through.

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 06:13:23 PMHowever, in the bigger picture, I generally find that blaming the masses for having the wrong taste doesn't get me anywhere.

I don't blame anybody for not being invested in a imaginary kids game. Being healthy, having good social skills, being responsible members of the community are so much more valuable then taste in entertainment. And the masses by and large make that stuff happen. They just also have absoutely terrible taste in entertainment.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 04:11:26 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 10, 2023, 04:04:29 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 01:37:49 PMWhy are ttrpgs such an outlier in that respect?

Because you actually have to sit down and read the damn thing, internalize the rules and interpret them, rather than just bash a few keys on some type of controller and learn as you play along. The learning curve and barrier of entry to get into TTRPGs is far bigger than for video games or board games. And you don't even get cool visual aids to help you along. Even if you have miniatures and game terrain, that's almost a separate hobby on its own, with its own steep barrier of entry (both, in artistic skills and monetary investment to get all that extra stuff) that doesn't directly aid learning the game, just visualize the game world (and arguably gets in the way of even that, when it doesn't match the situations or stuff present during play).

But anyone can just plug and play a video game, and learn through trial and error really quick. And board game rules tend to be really simple and condensed compared to TTRPGs.

You don't really require ANY artistic skills or much money to have terrain and minis: https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1645509651499196416

Some of that still requires some degree of "Arts & Crafts" skill and investment, which is what I really meant by "artistic skills" (not "fine arts" per se, but general aesthetic sense), as well as lots of time (which I should've mentioned) and stuff like printers, which I don't have.

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 06:13:23 PMThe learning curve is a hurdle, but it's one that most players prefer to go through.

I would disagree with this on the basis that most players (in my experience) don't even bother learning the rules, but lay that responsibility squarely on the GM. So I think it's more a name recognition and "official/authorative sources" type of thing, than actually preferring a steep learning curve.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 10, 2023, 07:45:25 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 06:13:23 PMThe learning curve is a hurdle, but it's one that most players prefer to go through.

I would disagree with this on the basis that most players (in my experience) don't even bother learning the rules, but lay that responsibility squarely on the GM. So I think it's more a name recognition and "official/authorative sources" type of thing, than actually preferring a steep learning curve.

Even if they don't fully learn the rules, my suggestion is that they prefer that there be a robust set of rules to learn. That's on the basis of many rules-light RPGs failing to gain traction over the years.

I don't think it's simply name recognition. If Hasbro replaced the current D&D rules with a minimalist set of rules like Risus that is easy to learn, then I suspect most players would abandon D&D for Pathfinder or some other ruleset like Shadowdark.

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 07:57:39 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 10, 2023, 07:45:25 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 06:13:23 PMThe learning curve is a hurdle, but it's one that most players prefer to go through.

I would disagree with this on the basis that most players (in my experience) don't even bother learning the rules, but lay that responsibility squarely on the GM. So I think it's more a name recognition and "official/authorative sources" type of thing, than actually preferring a steep learning curve.

Even if they don't fully learn the rules, my suggestion is that they prefer that there be a robust set of rules to learn. That's on the basis of many rules-light RPGs failing to gain traction over the years.

I don't think it's simply name recognition. If Hasbro replaced the current D&D rules with a minimalist set of rules like Risus that is easy to learn, then I suspect most players would abandon D&D for Pathfinder or some other ruleset like Shadowdark.

Yeah, that might be true to some extend. I think even if they're too lazy to learn the rules, most players need a certain degree of complexity in terms of character development and rules for stuff you can do to really get invested in the game. But I also think that most rules light games being kind of amateurish, freeware and/or unknowns plays into it.

So, the new rules say you can be a half-anything but they don't call it that. Only dumber:

Choose the two races of your parents, now one of them gives you the looks and the other the stats. So now you can be a Human looking Half-Orc with full Orc stats and none of the negatives. Because reasons...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2023, 12:17:07 AM
So, the new rules say you can be a half-anything but they don't call it that. Only dumber:

Choose the two races of your parents, now one of them gives you the looks and the other the stats. So now you can be a Human looking Half-Orc with full Orc stats and none of the negatives. Because reasons...

I like his ghost costume, I see he's taking after Critical Role and mixing in LARP at the table.

Quote from: Slambo on April 05, 2023, 12:56:01 PM

They specifically mentioned they're keeping teiflings.

WotC is obsessed with being "Edgy" and "SAFE!" at the same time.

They override half the established monster lore with "DEMON!" or some DEMON! influence and then turn around and try to witewash anything "problematic"

They are the most scizo company ever.

Ooh! I really wanna play a "Child of Different Humanoid Kinds"! That sounds like a catchy name to have on your character sheet! I'm sure there's gonna be enough space in your sheet's race species "Humanoid Kind" section to write all that down.

Child of Different Humanoid Kinds HERE WE GO!!!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2023, 12:17:07 AM
So, the new rules say you can be a half-anything but they don't call it that. Only dumber:

Choose the two races of your parents, now one of them gives you the looks and the other the stats. So now you can be a Human looking Half-Orc with full Orc stats and none of the negatives. Because reasons...

This strikes me as a ham-handed attempt to backpedal from an astonishingly dumb take to start with.

Typical WotC.

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 07:57:39 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 10, 2023, 07:45:25 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 06:13:23 PMThe learning curve is a hurdle, but it's one that most players prefer to go through.

I would disagree with this on the basis that most players (in my experience) don't even bother learning the rules, but lay that responsibility squarely on the GM. So I think it's more a name recognition and "official/authorative sources" type of thing, than actually preferring a steep learning curve.

Even if they don't fully learn the rules, my suggestion is that they prefer that there be a robust set of rules to learn. That's on the basis of many rules-light RPGs failing to gain traction over the years.

I don't think it's simply name recognition. If Hasbro replaced the current D&D rules with a minimalist set of rules like Risus that is easy to learn, then I suspect most players would abandon D&D for Pathfinder or some other ruleset like Shadowdark.

I think what makes D&D work is it has a fairly simple and straight forward character creation process but other areas of the game are quite deep (large number of spells, magic items, fair amount of combat rules, etc). Where I think the designers are going wrong, at least in my humble opinion, is they have been complicating the character creation process and trying to make it more customizable but it works because you just pick class and race and those come packaged with abilities and flavor. There are lots of games out there that don't do that, that are more customizable (I make games that have more involved character creation). When D&D starts chasing that experience I have found it loses something. That said, simple character creation shouldn't be confused for the whole thing needing to be simple. D&D isn't the most complicated game in the world, but it also isn't the simplest or easiest to learn (when I think back to AD&D, that took time to figure out reading through the book).

Quote from: Omega on April 12, 2023, 06:16:58 AM
WotC is obsessed with being "Edgy" and "SAFE!" at the same time.

They override half the established monster lore with "DEMON!" or some DEMON! influence and then turn around and try to witewash anything "problematic"

They are the most scizo company ever.

No doubt the new version/edition is going to mention X-Cards in the rules and recommend their use.

I ran a game at a convention and I was given X-Cards.  Placed them in the empty seat next to me along with the other books I was storing to the side and never mentioned them and no one brought them up.