Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 03:33:59 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 05, 2023, 02:33:32 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 02:15:32 PM
Sorry if this wasn't clear. The big inter-racial relation question posed by half-elf and half-orc is:

Why are human/elf and human/orc the only two combinations allowed?

For example, in AD&D1, the best relations are mostly among demihumans like gnomes, elves, and halflings. Those have the most "G" relations in the Racial Preferences chart. So why aren't gnome/elf or halfling/dwarf possible character types?

I forgot in what thread we were discussing races in the campaign, but it came up. There is a certain point where mechanically speaking, such "Half Races" or other combinations can just become ridiculous, and more trouble than they are worth. Then, of course, there is also the idea that because some races can interbreed, doesn't mean  races can. Beyond that, while theoretically some races *could* interbreed, like dwarves and Halflings or Gnomes and Halflings--mechanically speaking, what would be the point? I can see a strong argument that many racial crossbreeds are not mechanically distinctive, and therefore not interesting or meaningful to create or detail.

The thread was the one I started on half-races just a week and a half ago. Here's the link:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/half-races-and-tolkien/

I understand that there is a mechanical issue of complexity, but that just reframes the question. From the mechanical point of view, I don't see how human/elf is any more interesting than gnome/elf. Mechanically, half-elf isn't interesting - it just mixes human and elf traits. So we're back to: why are human/elf and human/orc the only choices?

At that point, it might be better to just go with a trait system where players can pick and choose among possible racial traits to represent different mixes.

Greetings!

Well, as I mentioned previously, various "Half Races" have been in the game from the beginning. Why? Number one--because it is a fantasy game, that's why. Lots of mixed breeds of monsters around, why also not with different humanoid races? Number two--because lots of people love "Half Races", that's why. Regardless of whether you like them or not.

People that don't like "Half Races" are in the minority. Therefore, if you don't like them, then you don't have to have them in your campaigns. Go buck wild and create whatever Racial Trait subsystem that you' like.

The majority though, like "Half Races"--so there was support officially for them by including write ups in official rosters of character races.

As for additional angles, well, again, Jhkim, that is your preference, and point of view. I have made the argument clearly that some race combinations make sense, and are better suited to creative mechanics--while many other race combinations clearly are not as attractive they don't make any mechanical sense or relevancy, so there's no point in making them--ie a Haling and Gnome for example. "Well, why not everything else!" Come on, Jhkim. Don't be obtuse. They have provided character profiles for the most popular race combinations. Other less popular or stupid combinations are left for you to figure out on your own. Space and money and popularity feeds into why they aren't going to make an extra 200 pages detailing 50 different half race combinations. Having said that, there have been 3rd Party Publishers that have published weird race boo toolkits that provide additional advice and structure for creating crazy races, for DM's that feel that they need more rules and frameworks to go from, instead of just winging it by themselves.

There is only so much resources and time to go around, and then there is the risk involved of the investment going bust. So it isn't profitable or wise for WOTC or whoever to necessarily publish a book that includes a thousand different half races.

All of this mechanical arguments of preferences is just basic stuff though, Jhkim, and clearly is not what is driving the debate. WOTC clearly stated that "Half Races have clearly racist ideas in them" (Para). This kind of thinking has also been promoted by zombie morons like Connie Chung, who shrieked about "Orcs being black people, and are just a hate-filled extension of the evil Huwhite colonizers!" (Para).  So, the real argument is from Leftist Libtards trying to destroy a game hobby--and in the process deeply offending and insulting anyone that doesn't agree with their Marxist-brainwashed world view. That is where the fire and debate comes from.

Apparently though, WOTC likes listening to and catering to Libtard activists that are Anti-White racists and full of hatred. In addition to these morons being absolutely mentally-ill nutjobs. Watch the WOTC SUMMIT video by Diversity & Dragons. This is all crybaby drama and sobbing by a whole crop of young, brainwashed, Libtard activists that are all mentally ill, and want everything around them to be dictated by their whims, and along the way they want to GET PAID as "Diversity Consultants" while doing no real work doing anything. These people are mentally and emotionally stunted, retarded children that can't handle reality, in the real world. Let alone engaging in  a fantasy game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This kind of thing was always going to happen.

It was inevitable.

Exhibit A:

Just one of the guys that was lauded for "Saving D&D" back in the day...

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 05, 2023, 03:30:00 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2023, 03:28:13 PM

Quote from: DocJones on April 05, 2023, 03:08:13 PM

Quote from: Melan on April 05, 2023, 03:03:32 PM
Very good. Now that the last problem with D&D has been solved, there are no remaining complaints left... right?

No because there are still spiders and snakes in the Monster Manual. ;-)

You say it in jest, but I fairly recently had a player in a campaign I was in literally go nearly catatonic (until their anti-anxiety meds kicked in) at the mention of the word "spider," because it reminded them of... I kid you not... sexual assault.

Until all PCs are blue spheres who overcome red spheres by turning them green and then collect their gold spheres there will be those who are too traumatized by the setting  to feel safe playing rpgs.

jesus christ find a new group.

There's a reason I said "fairly recently" and not "currently."

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 05, 2023, 10:47:48 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 10:34:50 AMSanitization is the opposite of interesting. I hope WotC keeps sanitizing their game, so more people move to other, better games!

Dear God no! Let them stay in their sanitized reservation.

If they move they'll be like the people who flee California, then try and make their new home in to California. They can't help themselves.

This...having seen the types of people attracted to 5th Edition firsthand, we need to ensure that the WOTC containment zone remains intact. Though I have a feeling we have already crossed the Rubicon. I give it less than a year until the OSR sphere becomes infiltrated and under sustained attack, decentralized that it may be.

Love it.

The WotC era of D&D is the slow-motion comet-impact of awesome proportions. Can't wait for all the continued silliness until their VTT initiative tanks fucking hard.

They can kiss my half-Asian ass not on ze left side, not on ze right side, but right in ze meedle!

Fortunately; my copies of the Core Books still contain the "Original D&D 5E game, including the Names of All of the Contributors, and All of the Half Races".  I purchased my copies, prior to the woke brigade lunacy.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:35:56 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 04:30:44 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:04:01 PM
First the concept of breeding completely different species was a ridiculous concept - but its a Fantasy game so why not.  Hell we've got dracolisks crawling around, why not half-elves

Why is it ridiculous? Animal hybrids are pretty common:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_hybrids
Lots of people today have a little Neanderthal DNA, so there definitely were proper hybrids back in the day.

An Elf can be eternal or live for thousands of years depending on the author, a human lives for 75 years.  Humans and elves from a biologic perspective are not related, humans might as well be Planaria compared to the elves.  But to each their own.  The whole concept is stupid.  Humans, Elves and Orcs would have to very closely related to have viable offspring, and its just present in most fantasy authors perspective. 

I'm aslo not keen on WotC writing school graduates trying to push this concept more, because when you get down to it they will just say every "species" is the same.  I really dislike games without defining racial traits and stats.  I really despise games where you are all playing the same race with a different skin color being the main difference.  I saw that shit back in the day for MMORPG's, and I avoided those games like the plague.

If humans and elves are different because of magic, then they could also have babies because of magic. 

I agree with you, especially about different races having different traits. The half races seem like a compromise for players who can't decide (or min-maxers). Which is fine, but not my bag. WotC deciding they are racist is absurd, of course.

Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 02:15:32 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 01:53:50 PM
Inter-racial relation questions aren't hard to answer:

If in your world Orcs, Elves, etc hate each other then half-anything will face racism from both sides.

If in your world everybody gets along and sings cumbaya they wont.

There's a lot of other possibilities in-between.

Sorry if this wasn't clear. The big inter-racial relation question posed by half-elf and half-orc is:

Why are human/elf and human/orc the only two combinations allowed?

For example, in AD&D1, the best relations are mostly among demihumans like gnomes, elves, and halflings. Those have the most "G" relations in the Racial Preferences chart. So why aren't gnome/elf or halfling/dwarf possible character types?

Halfling dwarf actually is in 5e as a halfling subrace.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 05:31:07 PM
This kind of thing was always going to happen.

It was inevitable.

Exhibit A:

Just one of the guys that was lauded for "Saving D&D" back in the day...
PRONOUNS_IN_THE_BIO_TWEET.PNG

His job was to "Save D&D" by making it profitable. He succeeded, then he was let go as his job was done.  He has as much bearing on WOTC's choices as our Dear Pundit does, which is to say jack all.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 05, 2023, 08:21:43 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 05:31:07 PM
This kind of thing was always going to happen.

It was inevitable.

Exhibit A:

Just one of the guys that was lauded for "Saving D&D" back in the day...
PRONOUNS_IN_THE_BIO_TWEET.PNG

His job was to "Save D&D" by making it profitable. He succeeded, then he was let go as his job was done.  He has as much bearing on WOTC's choices as our Dear Pundit does, which is to say jack all.

He sentiments are fully representative of the culture that gained influence over, and have been in charge of D&D since WotC bought out TSR.

And "D&D" didn't need saving. The hobby would have survived a TSR bankruptcy just fine.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 09:27:39 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 05, 2023, 08:21:43 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 05:31:07 PM
This kind of thing was always going to happen.

It was inevitable.

Exhibit A:

Just one of the guys that was lauded for "Saving D&D" back in the day...
PRONOUNS_IN_THE_BIO_TWEET.PNG

His job was to "Save D&D" by making it profitable. He succeeded, then he was let go as his job was done.  He has as much bearing on WOTC's choices as our Dear Pundit does, which is to say jack all.

He sentiments are fully representative of the culture that gained influence over, and have been in charge of D&D since WotC bought out TSR.

And "D&D" didn't need saving. The hobby would have survived a TSR bankruptcy just fine.

His politics reeks of rotten fish and he looks like the gym teacher that all the girls were afraid to be alone with.

Quote from: SHARK on April 05, 2023, 05:22:58 PM
All of this mechanical arguments of preferences is just basic stuff though, Jhkim, and clearly is not what is driving the debate. WOTC clearly stated that "Half Races have clearly racist ideas in them" (Para). This kind of thinking has also been promoted by zombie morons like Connie Chung, who shrieked about "Orcs being black people, and are just a hate-filled extension of the evil Huwhite colonizers!" (Para).  So, the real argument is from Leftist Libtards trying to destroy a game hobby--and in the process deeply offending and insulting anyone that doesn't agree with their Marxist-brainwashed world view. That is where the fire and debate comes from.

I think we might be talking past each other here. I don't have a problem with half-races -- and also I play with many other leftist gamers all the time, and half-races haven't been a problem. I don't think this push against half-races is a broader leftist movement. Rather, it's a specific corporate move to strategically simplify and relabel race to avoid more discussion about fantasy races. Having half-races brings up a lot of questions about how races relate, and makes them seem more like real-world ethnicities.


I likened it to "solving" racism in older stories by editing out black characters. If there's no black characters, there isn't any racism. But doing that isn't progressive at all.

By parallel, if there are no half-races, then it's easier to say "it isn't race, it's type/ancestry/whatever" and dodge any discussion.


I'd prefer to see more stuff that uses race/ancestry in different ways, and shakes up assumptions, rather than editing down. That's what I did in my current setting.

no half races...so...no centaurs?

The history of the term miscegenation is interesting. It was a term made up by anti-Lincoln democrats in an underhanded attempt to influence the 1864 presidential campaign; an early example of fake news.

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 02:19:55 AM

Quote from: SHARK on April 05, 2023, 05:22:58 PM
All of this mechanical arguments of preferences is just basic stuff though, Jhkim, and clearly is not what is driving the debate. WOTC clearly stated that "Half Races have clearly racist ideas in them" (Para). This kind of thinking has also been promoted by zombie morons like Connie Chung, who shrieked about "Orcs being black people, and are just a hate-filled extension of the evil Huwhite colonizers!" (Para).  So, the real argument is from Leftist Libtards trying to destroy a game hobby--and in the process deeply offending and insulting anyone that doesn't agree with their Marxist-brainwashed world view. That is where the fire and debate comes from.

I think we might be talking past each other here. I don't have a problem with half-races -- and also I play with many other leftist gamers all the time, and half-races haven't been a problem. I don't think this push against half-races is a broader leftist movement. Rather, it's a specific corporate move to strategically simplify and relabel race to avoid more discussion about fantasy races. Having half-races brings up a lot of questions about how races relate, and makes them seem more like real-world ethnicities.


I likened it to "solving" racism in older stories by editing out black characters. If there's no black characters, there isn't any racism. But doing that isn't progressive at all.

By parallel, if there are no half-races, then it's easier to say "it isn't race, it's type/ancestry/whatever" and dodge any discussion.


I'd prefer to see more stuff that uses race/ancestry in different ways, and shakes up assumptions, rather than editing down. That's what I did in my current setting.

This push against half-races came from their "diversity consultants" and people crying in social media, not from corporate decisions made on a vacuum. Though, I do think most people who identify as "left" don't really know much, if anything, about this. They just go along to get along when it comes up and bend themselves like a pretzel to make sense of it rather than question it, which is why pushes like these keep happening. But most people don't really believe this shit (including the people pushing it) because it's INSANE ideological nonsense originating from wild interpretations of Intersectional Feminism made by idiots trying to out-left each other in social media.