WotC is openly Anti-Miscegenation But I'm the racist for thinking that marrying outside your race is perfectly fine...
https://boundingintocomics.com/2023/04/04/dungeons-dragons-to-remove-half-species-from-players-handbook-claims-entire-the-entire-idea-is-inherently-racist/ (https://boundingintocomics.com/2023/04/04/dungeons-dragons-to-remove-half-species-from-players-handbook-claims-entire-the-entire-idea-is-inherently-racist/)
Quote"So we're focused on what damage should this creature do. That's why everything goes through inclusion review now so everything in our game brings out delight. Even reprints are going through inclusion review. That's why some older books are changing, too."
Get your hardcopies before they get Stalinized.
I honestly don't know who they think their customers are.
Makes me glad I stopped spending money on their products.
Now when I can get everything converted to OSR games and sell my WOTC books, I will be much happier.
Quote from: David Johansen on April 04, 2023, 11:58:37 PM
I honestly don't know who they think their customers are.
Their customers are brand loyalist who buy it because it says "D&D" on the cover. Who their consumers are, as in who actually uses their shit is beyond me.
Imagine you were a super-racist person who hated minorities but you lived in a tolerant world that would be horrified if you told them what you thought. What would you do differently than what these woke leftists do? I can't think of a single thing.
Quote from: Doctor Jest on April 05, 2023, 12:38:43 AM
Imagine you were a super-racist person who hated minorities but you lived in a tolerant world that would be horrified if you told them what you thought. What would you do differently than what these woke leftists do? I can't think of a single thing.
I would make a good game, instead of shitting on the work of other, better and more creative people.
Quote from: Zelen on April 05, 2023, 12:51:10 AM
Quote from: Doctor Jest on April 05, 2023, 12:38:43 AM
Imagine you were a super-racist person who hated minorities but you lived in a tolerant world that would be horrified if you told them what you thought. What would you do differently than what these woke leftists do? I can't think of a single thing.
I would make a good game, instead of shitting on the work of other, better and more creative people.
I should have specified that you are a subversive commie as well.
What this thread really needs is a half-Korean guy to show up and explain to us why we're wrong and this is actually a good idea.
Quote from: I on April 05, 2023, 01:13:48 AM
What this thread really needs is a half-Korean guy to show up and explain to us why we're wrong and this is actually a good idea.
But it's totally gonna lead to Civil War.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 05, 2023, 01:23:15 AM
Quote from: I on April 05, 2023, 01:13:48 AM
What this thread really needs is a half-Korean guy to show up and explain to us why we're wrong and this is actually a good idea.
But it's totally gonna lead to Civil War.
Between the Halfs and Half-Nots? ;D
D&D has just solved waaacisim in one move. Yaay! Let's all bake cup cakes together.
Well, if they are going to neuter all the races by making them the same, that does make the half-races rather redundant. What's missing is the next logical step, of just removing all races altogether. It's all going to be humans cosplaying different shades of cultures while totally not culturally appropriating anything--unless you are deemed a white male*, in which case you should just kill yourself so that everyone else can game secure in the fact that you won't be around.
You can be any "race" you want, any "culture" you want, any "gender" you want--as long as you do so in an approved manner for 21st century Seattle. Yay diversity! And I thought all the non-conformists in the '60s and '70s that all dressed alike, thought alike, and so on where notable for their cognitive dissonance. Complete pikers compared to what we have now.
This is all coming from someone that doesn't really like half races. WotC has this amazing ability to even when they do something that on the surface goes in the direction I'd like, still manage to completely screw it up. They are worse than the proverbial blind squirrels and the stopped clock. When they find a nut in spite of themselves, it's got a bacterial infection. When they have the correct time, it's attached to a bomb.
* Not valid for certain approved cultures which are only deemed white when engaged in activities counter to the enterprise but are allowed when temporarily allied to the effort.
Is WOTC trying to see just how dumb they can get? Or are they trying to tank the new version of D&D?
I have a theory that a lot of the "people of color" among the high society woke are actually the biracial children of activists from a previous generation.
Put in D&D terms, they are half-elves who are terrified that their human heritage might mean they have "human privilege". Raised by their human mother, they are entirely human in every way that matters culturally, but they have enough superficial elven features to qualify for all of the special equity programs designed to give elves an advantage in human society. They don't want to be challenged on their human ancestry when they attempt to claim these special legal advantages, and so they insist that they, too, are full elves.
There are games that have replaced the defined half-races with other mechanics, usually 'blood/ancestry' feats or traits--HARP, Fantasycraft (with the Adventurer's Companion)--and the core premise of 'pick one for mechanical purposes, define the non-mechanical elements however you like' isn't necessarily a bad approach. But like Steven Mitchell, I don't trust WotC to do this in any but the most heavy-handed and coercive manner.
I couldn't decide what was more idiotic:
Removal of half-races, which actually ganks a portion of FR lore (specifically, Deepingdale, not that I expect them to care).
Or their inability to even suggest specs needed to run their VTT.
Willing to bet that the "removal" will simply be a renaming, like Half Giant = Goliath. No chance in hell that they will remove established options.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 05, 2023, 10:03:44 AM
I couldn't decide what was more idiotic:
Removal of half-races, which actually ganks a portion of FR lore (specifically, Deepingdale, not that I expect them to care).
Or their inability to even suggest specs needed to run their VTT.
My answer: Both. WOTC is very good at being very dumb.
What a weird thing to do.
I was reading Forbidden Lands the other day and that game considers half-elves to be the inheritors of the world, since they take the best from both races. Oh yeah, and orcs started off as a slave race. Interesting, if not original, ideas with lots of room to role play.
Sanitization is the opposite of interesting. I hope WotC keeps sanitizing their game, so more people move to other, better games!
I don't think half-things are racist or whatever, but I also don't like them for setting or game purposes.
E: I also don't think it makes sense for other species to fall in love and have kids in sci-fi. It just really doesn't make any sense.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 10:34:50 AMSanitization is the opposite of interesting. I hope WotC keeps sanitizing their game, so more people move to other, better games!
Dear God no! Let them stay in their sanitized reservation.
If they move they'll be like the people who flee California, then try and make their new home in to California. They can't help themselves.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 10:34:50 AM
What a weird thing to do.
I was reading Forbidden Lands the other day and that game considers half-elves to be the inheritors of the world, since they take the best from both races. Oh yeah, and orcs started off as a slave race. Interesting, if not original, ideas with lots of room to role play.
Sanitization is the opposite of interesting. I hope WotC keeps sanitizing their game, so more people move to other, better games!
And in The One Ring 2E they explicitly state: "The aim of The One Ring is to let players feel what it means to go adventuring in a wild and perilous land from a forgotten past. It is a threatening world that has more in common with the world depicted in epic sagas of the Dark Ages of Europe than with our contemporary world." - Pg 11 text box
I know there are people who aren't necessarily fans of Free League's in-house system, but at least they seem to be able to make a game without completely neutering the concept of it. They're my favorite company just by virtue of the fact that they have a wide pool of genres that actually feel different from each other, largely because the interesting parts haven't been stripped out of them over complaints by overly-sensitive people with nothing better to do with their lives. I sincerely hope they continue in that vein, but they have definitely become a much bigger player in the TTRPG sphere in the last few years and that generally draws the attention of the wokescolds and self-appointed wrongfun police, so we'll see.
Quote from: Corolinth on April 05, 2023, 08:57:14 AM
I have a theory that a lot of the "people of color" among the high society woke are actually the biracial children of activists from a previous generation.
Put in D&D terms, they are half-elves who are terrified that their human heritage might mean they have "human privilege". Raised by their human mother, they are entirely human in every way that matters culturally, but they have enough superficial elven features to qualify for all of the special equity programs designed to give elves an advantage in human society. They don't want to be challenged on their human ancestry when they attempt to claim these special legal advantages, and so they insist that they, too, are full elves.
See Halle Berry and Colin Kaepernick as prime examples.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 05, 2023, 09:53:16 AM
There are games that have replaced the defined half-races with other mechanics, usually 'blood/ancestry' feats or traits--HARP, Fantasycraft (with the Adventurer's Companion)--and the core premise of 'pick one for mechanical purposes, define the non-mechanical elements however you like' isn't necessarily a bad approach. But like Steven Mitchell, I don't trust WotC to do this in any but the most heavy-handed and coercive manner.
Very much the case.
This is less about what they're going to as it is about why and who is doing it.
Also, the more continuity from prior editions you remove the more customers you lose no matter how good the game. 4e should have taught them that one (and I say that as someone who loved running 4e).
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 30, 1975, 02:17:29 AM
I know there are people who aren't necessarily fans of Free League's in-house system, but at least they seem to be able to make a game without completely neutering the concept of it. They're my favorite company just by virtue of the fact that they have a wide pool of genres that actually feel different from each other, largely because the interesting parts haven't been stripped out of them over complaints by overly-sensitive people with nothing better to do with their lives. I sincerely hope they continue in that vein, but they have definitely become a much bigger player in the TTRPG sphere in the last few years and that generally draws the attention of the wokescolds and self-appointed wrongfun police, so we'll see.
I'm a big fan of Year Zero Engine and Free League's range of games. Being Euros they are insulated from the worst of wokism. My guess is they keep on trucking.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 05, 2023, 10:47:48 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 10:34:50 AMSanitization is the opposite of interesting. I hope WotC keeps sanitizing their game, so more people move to other, better games!
Dear God no! Let them stay in their sanitized reservation.
If they move they'll be like the people who flee California, then try and make their new home in to California. They can't help themselves.
You jest, but I know a few 5e refugees and they're cool. They left for a reason, after all.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 05, 2023, 08:19:30 AM
This is all coming from someone that doesn't really like half races. WotC has this amazing ability to even when they do something that on the surface goes in the direction I'd like, still manage to completely screw it up. They are worse than the proverbial blind squirrels and the stopped clock. When they find a nut in spite of themselves, it's got a bacterial infection. When they have the correct time, it's attached to a bomb.
Ditto. I've just never been a fan of half-races concept since it steps on various toes, either "scientifically" or metaphysically. But even though my games don't feature these races, it's clear that WOTCs motives for wanting to make this move are terrible. This won't make a better game. The writing has been on the wall for a long time, but it's clear that the apologists for WOTC are being proven more and more wrong every day.
Unsurprisingly, I don't think they've thought this through.
No more "Half" races? OK. So no more Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Half-Giants...
I guess that means they're getting rid of Tieflings and Aasimar then? They're "half" human and "half" demonic/angelic, respectively...
That ought to go over well. >_<
I see what they are doing as something that will appease the woke, but they don't game anyway for the most part.
Meanwhile, I can't see how anything they are doing will appeal to everyone else and cause people to jump to the new version.
Sure the people who always have to play the latest and greatest will, but I think that is a small number of gamers.
Quote from: David Johansen on April 04, 2023, 11:58:37 PM
I honestly don't know who they think their customers are.
Crazy people.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 05, 2023, 08:44:24 AM
Is WOTC trying to see just how dumb they can get? Or are they trying to tank the new version of D&D?
This is the return, yet again of the corporate belief that the customers are mindless cattle.
D&D has to be dumbed down, made simpler to appeal to the lowest common denominator because they keep listening to people who apparently flunked kindergarten and cannot add 10+2.
Q. What do Wizards of the Coast, the Ku Klux Klan, and Nazis have in common?
A. They are all anti-miscegenation.
Greetings!
*Laughing* No more "Half Races"? WOTC says because such a concept is inherently racist?
That "STUPID TRAIN" just keeps on rolling!
I have most of the 5E books. I have various OSR books and game systems.
It feels kind of sad, but also INVIGORATING to severe the consumer relationship with WOTC. I love D&D, and have been a fan and gamer for decades now. I will continue to be a fan and gamer, playing D&D. However, whether I am running 5E games or OSR games, I'm done being a consumer and customer of WOTC.
"Orcs are black! Old game editions are filled with Misogyny and Huwhite supremacy, and racism!"
"We are reviewing the current crop of books and editing them to make them safer for everyone and more compliant and kneeling to rabid BLM and rainbow trans hippo activists, and wild-eyed Feminist harridans, all wrapped up in Marxist new speak, but these changes are all for the greater good!"
And on, and on, and on. It never stops, and everything with WOTC just gets absolutely *stupider*. That *STUPID TRAIN* just keeps on rolling. I have gotten off that train. I'm no longer a passenger. They can drive the stupid train off a cliff and straight down into a cesspool. Good! Burn it all the fuck down!
Sad. Ah, well. I odn't care about WOTC anymore. They, and anything they do--or don't do--just isn't relevant anymore. I'm not on that "Edition Train" anymore. As I said,it is a refreshing, and invigorating kind of feeling. I recommend such a choice to all gamers and fans of D&D. Leave WOTC, leave them in the dust of your rearview mirror, and join the OSR. Even keep old 5E. It's all good. Just leave WOTC. Your sanity and peace of mind will thank you.
The Smoking Lamp is lit!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Brigman on April 05, 2023, 11:46:07 AM
Unsurprisingly, I don't think they've thought this through.
No more "Half" races? OK. So no more Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Half-Giants...
I guess that means they're getting rid of Tieflings and Aasimar then? They're "half" human and "half" demonic/angelic, respectively...
That ought to go over well. >_<
They specifically mentioned they're keeping teiflings.
Quote from: Omega on April 05, 2023, 12:12:26 PM
This is the return, yet again of the corporate belief that the customers are mindless cattle.
D&D has to be dumbed down, made simpler to appeal to the lowest common denominator because they keep listening to people who apparently flunked kindergarten and cannot add 10+2.
Hopefully they will catch on before its too late and they don't destroy everything.
But I doubt it.
It's funny. I'd just been pondering and resolved my issues with half-races in my own D&D setting. I have a thread on it still active:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/half-races-and-tolkien/
The stated reason is "they're racist" -- but I think the real reason is that half-elves and half-orcs open up a bunch of inter-racial relation questions that are tricky to answer. Rather than find answers, it's easier to eliminate them and thus avoid such questions. It's the corporate approach to issues.
I think of it like how adaptations often deal with non-white characters in older works -- by cutting out the character. i.e. cut Esmeralda from Tarzan, or cut Ebony from The Spirit, cut Sunflower from Fantasia, etc. They eliminate racism by eliminating the non-white characters so the question is less visible.
EDITED TO ADD: To clarify, the tricky question raised by half-elf and half-orc is why are those the only two combinations allowed? If such interrelations are possible, why aren't there all sorts of other half races?
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 01:38:42 PM
I think of it like how adaptations often deal with non-white characters in older works -- by cutting out the character. i.e. cut Esmeralda from Tarzan, or cut Ebony from The Spirit, cut Sunflower from Fantasia, etc. They eliminate racism by eliminating the non-white characters so the question is less visible.
Good point. I think I've seen at least two Western-themed games written by woke scolds. Guess how they treated the whole Native American awkwardness? By eliminating Native Americas from the setting or regulating them to sanitized background!
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 01:38:42 PM
It's funny. I'd just been pondering and resolved my issues with half-races in my own D&D setting. I have a thread on it still active:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/half-races-and-tolkien/
The stated reason is "they're racist" -- but I think the real reason is that half-elves and half-orcs open up a bunch of inter-racial relation questions that are tricky to answer. Rather than find answers, it's easier to eliminate them and thus avoid such questions. It's the corporate approach to issues.
I think of it like how adaptations often deal with non-white characters in older works -- by cutting out the character. i.e. cut Esmeralda from Tarzan, or cut Ebony from The Spirit, cut Sunflower from Fantasia, etc. They eliminate racism by eliminating the non-white characters so the question is less visible.
There's been lots of articles in the leftist MSM AGAINST interracial relationships, just an example:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/style/modern-love-race-i-broke-up-with-her-because-shes-white.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/style/modern-love-race-i-broke-up-with-her-because-shes-white.html)
Inter-racial relation questions aren't hard to answer:
If in your world Orcs, Elves, etc hate each other then half-anything will face racism from both sides.
If in your world everybody gets along and sings cumbaya they wont.
There's a lot of other possibilities in-between.
If your world looks like the first option it DOESN'T make you a racist (Contrary to what leftism teaches you).
Given that we KNOW the woke ARE a bunch of anti-miscegenation racists are we to assume this change isn't inspired by that?
Greetings!
The whoe argument against having "Half Races" in a campaign is just pure BS. It is all ideological nonsense pushed by Libtards.
Two different races have sex, and produce offspring. Depending on the races involved, that can potentially produce some mechanically and culturally interesting individual characters.
If you can't handle that, then guess what? IN YOUR CAMPAIGN, you don't need to include them.
That however, doesn't warrant WOTC not otherwise including them as options in the standardized roster of character options.
WHY? Because far more people LIKE HALF RACES, regardless of what you prefer, or want to believe. That's why.
It would be so nice if people would stand up to these mentally weak social rejects, and put them in their place. All of the anti-white racists need to be stomped on hard, too. People shouldn't show them any mercy whatsoever. Push back against these idiots, and resist them! Don't just let them run their mouths online anywhere without getting called out to the carpet for it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 01:53:50 PM
Inter-racial relation questions aren't hard to answer:
If in your world Orcs, Elves, etc hate each other then half-anything will face racism from both sides.
If in your world everybody gets along and sings cumbaya they wont.
There's a lot of other possibilities in-between.
Sorry if this wasn't clear. The big inter-racial relation question posed by half-elf and half-orc is:
Why are human/elf and human/orc the only two combinations allowed?For example, in AD&D1, the best relations are mostly among demihumans like gnomes, elves, and halflings. Those have the most "G" relations in the Racial Preferences chart. So why aren't gnome/elf or halfling/dwarf possible character types?
Quote from: Slambo on April 05, 2023, 12:56:01 PM
Quote from: Brigman on April 05, 2023, 11:46:07 AM
Unsurprisingly, I don't think they've thought this through.
No more "Half" races? OK. So no more Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Half-Giants...
I guess that means they're getting rid of Tieflings and Aasimar then? They're "half" human and "half" demonic/angelic, respectively...
That ought to go over well. >_<
They specifically mentioned they're keeping teiflings.
Of course they are. Gotta get baristas somewhere, I guess... ::)
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 02:15:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 01:53:50 PM
Inter-racial relation questions aren't hard to answer:
If in your world Orcs, Elves, etc hate each other then half-anything will face racism from both sides.
If in your world everybody gets along and sings cumbaya they wont.
There's a lot of other possibilities in-between.
Sorry if this wasn't clear. The big inter-racial relation question posed by half-elf and half-orc is:
Why are human/elf and human/orc the only two combinations allowed?
For example, in AD&D1, the best relations are mostly among demihumans like gnomes, elves, and halflings. Those have the most "G" relations in the Racial Preferences chart. So why aren't gnome/elf or halfling/dwarf possible character types?
Thanks for clarifying.
Is this still the case in 5e?
As to why only those 2? Well, there's the issue of size, I mean an Orc and a Halfling will have some difficulties in bed. There's also the issue of magic, maybe the inherent magic of each race prevents them from having offspring with certain other races?
Which again wasn't hard to answer, those two answers were just off the top of my head without much thought.
You could also say halflings are too distantly related and can't interbreed (they might find a way to fuck tho) with Orcs for example, if you wish to insert scientific explanations into your world.
Take my Mayan inspired game, there's 5 sentient races, none can interbreed with the others. Because the gods made them from different substance.
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 02:15:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 01:53:50 PM
Inter-racial relation questions aren't hard to answer:
If in your world Orcs, Elves, etc hate each other then half-anything will face racism from both sides.
If in your world everybody gets along and sings cumbaya they wont.
There's a lot of other possibilities in-between.
Sorry if this wasn't clear. The big inter-racial relation question posed by half-elf and half-orc is:
Why are human/elf and human/orc the only two combinations allowed?
For example, in AD&D1, the best relations are mostly among demihumans like gnomes, elves, and halflings. Those have the most "G" relations in the Racial Preferences chart. So why aren't gnome/elf or halfling/dwarf possible character types?
Greetings!
I forgot in what thread we were discussing races in the campaign, but it came up. There is a certain point where mechanically speaking, such "Half Races" or other combinations can just become ridiculous, and more trouble than they are worth. Then, of course, there is also the idea that because some races can interbreed, doesn't mean races can. Beyond that, while theoretically some races *could* interbreed, like dwarves and Halflings or Gnomes and Halflings--mechanically speaking, what would be the point? I can see a strong argument that many racial crossbreeds are not mechanically distinctive, and therefore not interesting or meaningful to create or detail. You could say the same thing about many Orc and Goblin/Hobgoblin, etc, in regards to crossbreeding.
Because *some* mixed race types make sense, and are interesting. That doesn't mean *ALL* are, or would be interesting.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I'm fairly certain the idea that rape being the cause of half races being a very real and obvious possibility (particularly with some combinations) "traumatizes" every blue-hair who insists that that one time a man glanced at her is exactly the same as if he'd violently forced himself on her, and we therefore must eliminate that reminder of rape. Which is stupid as all get-out, but does remind me of something from another entertainment medium.
Law & Order: Special Victims Unit female main character Olivia Benson was a detective and the result of a rape (her mother decided not to terminate her). Back in the early aughts, Mariska Hargitay, the actress who played Olivia Benson, really got into the support community for both women who had been raped and children of rape because she apparently got so many people, especially young women, thanking her for her portrayal of the character. Under this not new but very woke push to ignore everything that makes the precious little SJW snowflakes even marginally uncomfortable, her character should be written out of television history and ignored. Which would be a shame for all of those people who find the character inspiring.
I've definitely been sensitive about stupid shit before, but the absolute weakness that is now inherent in current first-world society has even me wanting to slap the shit out of people who break down when a word is merely implied, let alone actually used. Rape is bad. So is child death. And yet one of the tropiest tropes in just about any genre of any entertainment medium is the backstory of the vengeful character spurred to action by the death of their family, which almost always includes small children. I have yet to see a reasonably well-adjusted parent who has lost a child completely lose their shit and break down into a blubbering mess at the mere mention of a character like The Punisher.
So while I'm sure other reasons are given for the removal of half races, I am willing to bet the whole "product of rape" thing has also played into it.
Very good. Now that the last problem with D&D has been solved, there are no remaining complaints left... right?
Quote from: Melan on April 05, 2023, 03:03:32 PM
Very good. Now that the last problem with D&D has been solved, there are no remaining complaints left... right?
No because there are still spiders and snakes in the Monster Manual. ;-)
Quote from: DocJones on April 05, 2023, 03:08:13 PM
Quote from: Melan on April 05, 2023, 03:03:32 PM
Very good. Now that the last problem with D&D has been solved, there are no remaining complaints left... right?
No because there are still spiders and snakes in the Monster Manual. ;-)
I'm going to have to break out the X-card at the mention of spiders. How dare you! I'm terrified of spiders. So terrified that the word spiders sends me into a panic attack. I'm hyperventilating at having typed out the word spiders four times now!
(Please note that I'm being sarcastic and making fun of whiny weak SJWs.)
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 05, 2023, 02:46:53 PM
I'm fairly certain the idea that rape being the cause of half races being a very real and obvious possibility (particularly with some combinations) "traumatizes" every blue-hair who insists that that one time a man glanced at her is exactly the same as if he'd violently forced himself on her, and we therefore must eliminate that reminder of rape. Which is stupid as all get-out, but does remind me of something from another entertainment medium.
Law & Order: Special Victims Unit female main character Olivia Benson was a detective and the result of a rape (her mother decided not to terminate her). Back in the early aughts, Mariska Hargitay, the actress who played Olivia Benson, really got into the support community for both women who had been raped and children of rape because she apparently got so many people, especially young women, thanking her for her portrayal of the character. Under this not new but very woke push to ignore everything that makes the precious little SJW snowflakes even marginally uncomfortable, her character should be written out of television history and ignored. Which would be a shame for all of those people who find the character inspiring.
I've definitely been sensitive about stupid shit before, but the absolute weakness that is now inherent in current first-world society has even me wanting to slap the shit out of people who break down when a word is merely implied, let alone actually used. Rape is bad. So is child death. And yet one of the tropiest tropes in just about any genre of any entertainment medium is the backstory of the vengeful character spurred to action by the death of their family, which almost always includes small children. I have yet to see a reasonably well-adjusted parent who has lost a child completely lose their shit and break down into a blubbering mess at the mere mention of a character like The Punisher.
So while I'm sure other reasons are given for the removal of half races, I am willing to bet the whole "product of rape" thing has also played into it.
So one of the final straws for me to leave TBP was a thread talking about the possibility of Dragonlance for 5e (before DL was a thing for 5e). And one poster said Tanis Half-elven's background was problematic. I asked was it because of how he was conceived? And I was told yes. So I left it at that and didn't read the thread anymore. But do these people want to tell every author that a main character can't be a product of rape?
Let us not forget they are also banning "savage" and "dim-witted" because it offends Trans people:
Quote
What is Wizards core value at a high level? With queer, trans, etc. players more visible than possible, which has dangers. What is your core audience? What is your plan for race?
More, not fewer. We're trying to widen the play space. We're always making steps in those direction. I think today's audience is bigger than it has ever been, but I also think it's a fraction of what it could be so we need to be more inclusive. We need to look at what content is not welcome in our spaces because it reflects hate. We need to walk our convictions and ideologies of inclusivity to make it clear hate is not welcome. We're going to publish content guidelines so you'll be able to review it and comment on it. We're making changes on an ongoing basis. For example, "savage" is gone. "Dim-witted" is gone.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 05, 2023, 03:14:53 PM
So one of the final straws for me to leave TBP was a thread talking about the possibility of Dragonlance for 5e (before DL was a thing for 5e). And one poster said Tanis Half-elven's background was problematic. I asked was it because of how he was conceived? And I was told yes. So I left it at that and didn't read the thread anymore. But do these people want to tell every author that a main character can't be a product of rape?
I'd put money on yes. Especially if the main character is female. You can't have a female character of any stripe face actual hardship (as opposed to the bullshit misogyny nonsense "hardship" that amounts to just being cat-called and for which she is considered stunning and brave for telling the male character off). Every female character must be a Mary Sue.
If they want to remove all the half's what don't they remove themselves from the company since the WOTC execs are a bunch of half wits :)
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 05, 2023, 03:19:31 PM
Let us not forget they are also banning "savage" and "dim-witted" because it offends Trans people:
Quote
What is Wizards core value at a high level? With queer, trans, etc. players more visible than possible, which has dangers. What is your core audience? What is your plan for race?
More, not fewer. We're trying to widen the play space. We're always making steps in those direction. I think today's audience is bigger than it has ever been, but I also think it's a fraction of what it could be so we need to be more inclusive. We need to look at what content is not welcome in our spaces because it reflects hate. We need to walk our convictions and ideologies of inclusivity to make it clear hate is not welcome. We're going to publish content guidelines so you'll be able to review it and comment on it. We're making changes on an ongoing basis. For example, "savage" is gone. "Dim-witted" is gone.
Set your washing machine to "purity spiral" and cleanse, cleanse cleanse!
Can I still say "cleanse"? I'm concerned it might offend filthy savages.
Quote from: DocJones on April 05, 2023, 03:08:13 PM
Quote from: Melan on April 05, 2023, 03:03:32 PM
Very good. Now that the last problem with D&D has been solved, there are no remaining complaints left... right?
No because there are still spiders and snakes in the Monster Manual. ;-)
You say it in jest, but I fairly recently had a player in a campaign I was in literally go nearly catatonic (until their anti-anxiety meds kicked in) at the mention of the word "spider," because it reminded them of... I kid you not... sexual assault.
Until all PCs are blue spheres who overcome red spheres by turning them green and then collect their gold spheres there will be those who are too traumatized by the setting to feel safe playing rpgs.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2023, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: DocJones on April 05, 2023, 03:08:13 PM
Quote from: Melan on April 05, 2023, 03:03:32 PM
Very good. Now that the last problem with D&D has been solved, there are no remaining complaints left... right?
No because there are still spiders and snakes in the Monster Manual. ;-)
You say it in jest, but I fairly recently had a player in a campaign I was in literally go nearly catatonic (until their anti-anxiety meds kicked in) at the mention of the word "spider," because it reminded them of... I kid you not... sexual assault.
Until all PCs are blue spheres who overcome red spheres by turning them green and then collect their gold spheres there will be those who are too traumatized by the setting to feel safe playing rpgs.
jesus christ find a new group.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2023, 03:28:13 PM
Until all PCs are blue spheres who overcome red spheres by turning them green and then collect their gold spheres there will be those who are too traumatized by the setting to feel safe playing rpgs.
What the fuck man? Spheres?! Trigger warning and spoiler tags please!
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2023, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: DocJones on April 05, 2023, 03:08:13 PM
Quote from: Melan on April 05, 2023, 03:03:32 PM
Very good. Now that the last problem with D&D has been solved, there are no remaining complaints left... right?
No because there are still spiders and snakes in the Monster Manual. ;-)
You say it in jest, but I fairly recently had a player in a campaign I was in literally go nearly catatonic (until their anti-anxiety meds kicked in) at the mention of the word "spider," because it reminded them of... I kid you not... sexual assault.
Until all PCs are blue spheres who overcome red spheres by turning them green and then collect their gold spheres there will be those who are too traumatized by the setting to feel safe playing rpgs.
I can't imagine what would have happened if they had heard the word "octopus".
Quote from: SHARK on April 05, 2023, 02:33:32 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 02:15:32 PM
Sorry if this wasn't clear. The big inter-racial relation question posed by half-elf and half-orc is:
Why are human/elf and human/orc the only two combinations allowed?
For example, in AD&D1, the best relations are mostly among demihumans like gnomes, elves, and halflings. Those have the most "G" relations in the Racial Preferences chart. So why aren't gnome/elf or halfling/dwarf possible character types?
I forgot in what thread we were discussing races in the campaign, but it came up. There is a certain point where mechanically speaking, such "Half Races" or other combinations can just become ridiculous, and more trouble than they are worth. Then, of course, there is also the idea that because some races can interbreed, doesn't mean races can. Beyond that, while theoretically some races *could* interbreed, like dwarves and Halflings or Gnomes and Halflings--mechanically speaking, what would be the point? I can see a strong argument that many racial crossbreeds are not mechanically distinctive, and therefore not interesting or meaningful to create or detail.
The thread was the one I started on half-races just a week and a half ago. Here's the link:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/half-races-and-tolkien/
I understand that there is a mechanical issue of complexity, but that just reframes the question. From the mechanical point of view, I don't see how human/elf is any more interesting than gnome/elf. Mechanically, half-elf isn't interesting - it just mixes human and elf traits. So we're back to: why are human/elf and human/orc the only choices?
At that point, it might be better to just go with a trait system where players can pick and choose among possible racial traits to represent different mixes.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 05, 2023, 03:31:30 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2023, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: DocJones on April 05, 2023, 03:08:13 PM
Quote from: Melan on April 05, 2023, 03:03:32 PM
Very good. Now that the last problem with D&D has been solved, there are no remaining complaints left... right?
No because there are still spiders and snakes in the Monster Manual. ;-)
You say it in jest, but I fairly recently had a player in a campaign I was in literally go nearly catatonic (until their anti-anxiety meds kicked in) at the mention of the word "spider," because it reminded them of... I kid you not... sexual assault.
Until all PCs are blue spheres who overcome red spheres by turning them green and then collect their gold spheres there will be those who are too traumatized by the setting to feel safe playing rpgs.
I can't imagine what would have happened if they had heard the word "octopus".
Or the film "Octopussy"
First the concept of breeding completely different species was a ridiculous concept - but its a Fantasy game so why not. Hell we've got dracolisks crawling around, why not half-elves
Second the concept of Half Elves and Half Orcs have been around since AD&D. Removing it is going to piss of a number of players.
I say Kudo's WotC, keep getting on your knees and giving your ass to leftards who don't have the money to buy from you and are just doing this as part of their 5th generational warfare against the West. This change will cause a number of people to question wtf is wrong with WotC, even players who only started in 5E are going to be pissed when Half Elves are pulled from the game. The amount of half elf bards, paladins and sorcerers are legendary in 5E. Then go with the psychopathic attachment to characters that WotC pushes on players now, well gee Baralomore the Half Elf can't be played in 6E now, I guess I'll just go off myself IRL (chicktrax D&D inspired post /s).
My two cents, if anyone can think of another core concept and can come up with a way to label it white supremacy and push to get more content cut from D&D please do it. I would laugh my arse off watching 6E be a critical failure and the shareholders take Hasbro's board out behind the slaughter house.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:04:01 PM
First the concept of breeding completely different species was a ridiculous concept - but its a Fantasy game so why not. Hell we've got dracolisks crawling around, why not half-elves
Second the concept of Half Elves and Half Orcs have been around since AD&D. Removing it is going to piss of a number of players.
I say Kudo's WotC, keep getting on your knees and giving your ass to leftards who don't have the money to buy from you and are just doing this as part of their 5th generational warfare against the West. This change will cause a number of people to question wtf is wrong with WotC, even players who only started in 5E are going to be pissed when Half Elves are pulled from the game. The amount of half elf bards, paladins and sorcerers are legendary in 5E. Then go with the psychopathic attachment to characters that WotC pushes on players now, well gee Baralomore the Half Elf can't be played in 6E now, I guess I'll just go off myself IRL (chicktrax D&D inspired post /s).
My two cents, if anyone can think of another core concept and can come up with a way to label it white supremacy and push to get more content cut from D&D please do it. I would laugh my arse off watching 6E be a critical failure and the shareholders take Hasbro's board out behind the slaughter house.
Well... It's fantasy, and there's dragons in it...
So how come all the humanoids aren't true hermafrodites? That's transphobic!
Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 04, 2023, 11:55:32 PM
Quote"So we're focused on what damage should this creature do. That's why everything goes through inclusion review now so everything in our game brings out delight. Even reprints are going through inclusion review. That's why some older books are changing, too."
Get your hardcopies before they get Stalinized.
come on.. all those option you like will still be in dnd beyond /s
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2023, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: DocJones on April 05, 2023, 03:08:13 PM
Quote from: Melan on April 05, 2023, 03:03:32 PM
Very good. Now that the last problem with D&D has been solved, there are no remaining complaints left... right?
No because there are still spiders and snakes in the Monster Manual. ;-)
You say it in jest, but I fairly recently had a player in a campaign I was in literally go nearly catatonic (until their anti-anxiety meds kicked in) at the mention of the word "spider," because it reminded them of... I kid you not... sexual assault.
Until all PCs are blue spheres who overcome red spheres by turning them green and then collect their gold spheres there will be those who are too traumatized by the setting to feel safe playing rpgs.
I hope someone kindly suggested they return to the game after a lot of therapy.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:04:01 PM
First the concept of breeding completely different species was a ridiculous concept - but its a Fantasy game so why not. Hell we've got dracolisks crawling around, why not half-elves
Why is it ridiculous? Animal hybrids are pretty common:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_hybrids
Lots of people today have a little Neanderthal DNA, so there definitely were proper hybrids back in the day.
Quote from: PulpHerb on April 05, 2023, 04:26:38 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2023, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: DocJones on April 05, 2023, 03:08:13 PM
Quote from: Melan on April 05, 2023, 03:03:32 PM
Very good. Now that the last problem with D&D has been solved, there are no remaining complaints left... right?
No because there are still spiders and snakes in the Monster Manual. ;-)
You say it in jest, but I fairly recently had a player in a campaign I was in literally go nearly catatonic (until their anti-anxiety meds kicked in) at the mention of the word "spider," because it reminded them of... I kid you not... sexual assault.
Until all PCs are blue spheres who overcome red spheres by turning them green and then collect their gold spheres there will be those who are too traumatized by the setting to feel safe playing rpgs.
I hope someone kindly suggested they return to the game after a lot of therapy.
I hope someone kindly suggests they apply for a writers position at WotC as a mentally disabled individual damaged by their game. Put her charge of their next adventure book. The videos that would come out would force me to buy another jar of popcorn just to keep up with the entertainment.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:04:01 PM
My two cents, if anyone can think of another core concept and can come up with a way to label it white supremacy and push to get more content cut from D&D please do it. I would laugh my arse off watching 6E be a critical failure and the shareholders take Hasbro's board out behind the slaughter house.
In the world of software,
master has been used a lot. However, a lot of money has been thrown at removing it to make things "more inclusive". I wouldn't be surprised to see
Dungeon Master replaced with
narrator or something similar, partly because they'll link it to slavery, and partly to make it clear that DMs are not in charge anymore.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 04:30:44 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:04:01 PM
First the concept of breeding completely different species was a ridiculous concept - but its a Fantasy game so why not. Hell we've got dracolisks crawling around, why not half-elves
Why is it ridiculous? Animal hybrids are pretty common:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_hybrids
Lots of people today have a little Neanderthal DNA, so there definitely were proper hybrids back in the day.
An Elf can be eternal or live for thousands of years depending on the author, a human lives for 75 years. Humans and elves from a biologic perspective are not related, humans might as well be Planaria compared to the elves. But to each their own. The whole concept is stupid. Humans, Elves and Orcs would have to very closely related to have viable offspring, and its just present in most fantasy authors perspective.
I'm aslo not keen on WotC writing school graduates trying to push this concept more, because when you get down to it they will just say every "species" is the same. I really dislike games without defining racial traits and stats. I really despise games where you are all playing the same race with a different skin color being the main difference. I saw that shit back in the day for MMORPG's, and I avoided those games like the plague.
Quote from: Krazz on April 05, 2023, 04:33:32 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:04:01 PM
My two cents, if anyone can think of another core concept and can come up with a way to label it white supremacy and push to get more content cut from D&D please do it. I would laugh my arse off watching 6E be a critical failure and the shareholders take Hasbro's board out behind the slaughter house.
In the world of software, master has been used a lot. However, a lot of money has been thrown at removing it to make things "more inclusive". I wouldn't be surprised to see Dungeon Master replaced with narrator or something similar, partly because they'll link it to slavery, and partly to make it clear that DMs are not in charge anymore.
Dungeon Master = Diversity Model
We could probably push that on Twitter with enough sock puppet accounts and get them to put in a whole paragraph on why Diversity Model is what the "DM" should be pushing for in all of their games. Maybe even get in a section where if they don't have at least one black player, one gentially connection procreation challenged player, and one cripple then their game is very bad and they should go to WotC.RAM.com and rent at least one minority to play at their table for each session or they are racists, their players are racists and they should just kill themselves /s.
#SaveElrond
Wizards needs to take a flying leap off Mt. Everest. Hand the game over to people who actually love it.
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 04:30:44 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:04:01 PM
First the concept of breeding completely different species was a ridiculous concept - but its a Fantasy game so why not. Hell we've got dracolisks crawling around, why not half-elves
Why is it ridiculous? Animal hybrids are pretty common:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_hybrids
Lots of people today have a little Neanderthal DNA, so there definitely were proper hybrids back in the day.
There is debate if homo neanderthalensis is a separate species or a subspecies of our species. Same with Denisovans.
I think the relationship between Men and Elves in Tolkien (where we get half-elves and half-orcs entry into the game) is similar. We already know Orcs are Elf derivatives in his world.
That's also why other hybrids didn't go mainstream, although in SPI's board game
Swords & Sorcery Men, Orcs, and Goblins are all the result of genetic experiments on crashlanded space-faring Dwarrows (Dwarves) by Elves, so in that world, you could easily sub in Half-Dwarves.
Quote from: PulpHerb on April 05, 2023, 04:41:17 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 04:30:44 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:04:01 PM
First the concept of breeding completely different species was a ridiculous concept - but its a Fantasy game so why not. Hell we've got dracolisks crawling around, why not half-elves
Why is it ridiculous? Animal hybrids are pretty common:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_hybrids
Lots of people today have a little Neanderthal DNA, so there definitely were proper hybrids back in the day.
There is debate if homo neanderthalensis is a separate species or a subspecies of our species. Same with Denisovans.
I think the relationship between Men and Elves in Tolkien (where we get half-elves and half-orcs entry into the game) is similar. We already know Orcs are Elf derivatives in his world.
That's also why other hybrids didn't go mainstream, although in SPI's board game Swords & Sorcery Men, Orcs, and Goblins are all the result of genetic experiments on crashlanded space-faring Dwarrows (Dwarves) by Elves, so in that world, you could easily sub in Half-Dwarves.
The concept of species for D&D is bunk as is trying to use any of our scientific terms. D&D as a world doesn't follow anything remotely close to DNA. Again my favorite example is the Dracolisk. Half black dragon and half basilik. That would be like making a gekko with a t-rex, but its viable in D&D world. Pretty much whatever you want to cross in D&D you can cross.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:39:10 PM
Dungeon Master = Diversity Model
We could probably push that on Twitter with enough sock puppet accounts and get them to put in a whole paragraph on why Diversity Model is what the "DM" should be pushing for in all of their games. Maybe even get in a section where if they don't have at least one black player, one gentially connection procreation challenged player, and one cripple then their game is very bad and they should go to WotC.RAM.com and rent at least one minority to play at their table for each session or they are racists, their players are racists and they should just kill themselves /s.
I love it....or how bout "Diversity Moderator" eh? maybe we could push that on the twatter
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 05, 2023, 04:55:46 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:39:10 PM
Dungeon Master = Diversity Model
We could probably push that on Twitter with enough sock puppet accounts and get them to put in a whole paragraph on why Diversity Model is what the "DM" should be pushing for in all of their games. Maybe even get in a section where if they don't have at least one black player, one gentially connection procreation challenged player, and one cripple then their game is very bad and they should go to WotC.RAM.com and rent at least one minority to play at their table for each session or they are racists, their players are racists and they should just kill themselves /s.
I love it....or how bout "Diversity Moderator" eh? maybe we could push that on the twatter
Moderator implies a Hierarchy and post modernist communist leftard zombies have been told by social media that hierarchies are bad.
Side note, one thing that is fun to put in a module, put in a SJW post grad student as an annoying villain. My villain joined a goblin tribe and spewed so much SJW shit it got the guys to leave and when they did capture him he spewed out how his parents are rich merchants and they'd pay a ransom don't kill him. The party took the coin. They are in the plane of air at the moment and are going to hear a familiar voice telling the White Dragons: Look, stop being white supremacist dragons, identify as another color and give up on your draconic genocidal identity. Have you thought about identifying as a rainbow dragon or at least a pink dragon?"
Quote from: Corolinth on April 05, 2023, 08:57:14 AM
I have a theory that a lot of the "people of color" among the high society woke are actually the biracial children of activists from a previous generation.
Put in D&D terms, they are half-elves who are terrified that their human heritage might mean they have "human privilege". Raised by their human mother, they are entirely human in every way that matters culturally, but they have enough superficial elven features to qualify for all of the special equity programs designed to give elves an advantage in human society. They don't want to be challenged on their human ancestry when they attempt to claim these special legal advantages, and so they insist that they, too, are full elves.
You don't know how right you actually are with this statement. Not to get too detailed, but there is a very real phenomenon (with very dangerous real-world consequences) of a rising number of culturally militant bi-racial children who almost invariably end up "hating" their white halves. This is the kind of militant you witness infesting ANTIFA gangs nationwide (along with weak willed, spoiled "white" middle class offspring). See Colin Kaepernick as a perfect example. There is almost a visceral attraction to neo-Marxist dogma in this group, and these are one very important part of the wokist coalition that infests public spaces like Twitter, Reddit, etc. and push this ESG nonsense on companies.
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 03:33:59 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 05, 2023, 02:33:32 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 02:15:32 PM
Sorry if this wasn't clear. The big inter-racial relation question posed by half-elf and half-orc is:
Why are human/elf and human/orc the only two combinations allowed?
For example, in AD&D1, the best relations are mostly among demihumans like gnomes, elves, and halflings. Those have the most "G" relations in the Racial Preferences chart. So why aren't gnome/elf or halfling/dwarf possible character types?
I forgot in what thread we were discussing races in the campaign, but it came up. There is a certain point where mechanically speaking, such "Half Races" or other combinations can just become ridiculous, and more trouble than they are worth. Then, of course, there is also the idea that because some races can interbreed, doesn't mean races can. Beyond that, while theoretically some races *could* interbreed, like dwarves and Halflings or Gnomes and Halflings--mechanically speaking, what would be the point? I can see a strong argument that many racial crossbreeds are not mechanically distinctive, and therefore not interesting or meaningful to create or detail.
The thread was the one I started on half-races just a week and a half ago. Here's the link:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/half-races-and-tolkien/
I understand that there is a mechanical issue of complexity, but that just reframes the question. From the mechanical point of view, I don't see how human/elf is any more interesting than gnome/elf. Mechanically, half-elf isn't interesting - it just mixes human and elf traits. So we're back to: why are human/elf and human/orc the only choices?
At that point, it might be better to just go with a trait system where players can pick and choose among possible racial traits to represent different mixes.
Greetings!
Well, as I mentioned previously, various "Half Races" have been in the game from the beginning. Why? Number one--because it is a fantasy game, that's why. Lots of mixed breeds of monsters around, why also not with different humanoid races? Number two--because lots of people love "Half Races", that's why. Regardless of whether you like them or not.
People that don't like "Half Races" are in the minority. Therefore, if you don't like them, then you don't have to have them in your campaigns. Go buck wild and create whatever Racial Trait subsystem that you' like.
The majority though, like "Half Races"--so there was support officially for them by including write ups in official rosters of character races.
As for additional angles, well, again, Jhkim, that is your preference, and point of view. I have made the argument clearly that some race combinations make sense, and are better suited to creative mechanics--while many other race combinations clearly are not as attractive they don't make any mechanical sense or relevancy, so there's no point in making them--ie a Haling and Gnome for example. "Well, why not everything else!" Come on, Jhkim. Don't be obtuse. They have provided character profiles for the most popular race combinations. Other less popular or stupid combinations are left for you to figure out on your own. Space and money and popularity feeds into why they aren't going to make an extra 200 pages detailing 50 different half race combinations. Having said that, there have been 3rd Party Publishers that have published weird race boo toolkits that provide additional advice and structure for creating crazy races, for DM's that feel that they need more rules and frameworks to go from, instead of just winging it by themselves.
There is only so much resources and time to go around, and then there is the risk involved of the investment going bust. So it isn't profitable or wise for WOTC or whoever to necessarily publish a book that includes a thousand different half races.
All of this mechanical arguments of preferences is just basic stuff though, Jhkim, and clearly is not what is driving the debate. WOTC clearly stated that "Half Races have clearly racist ideas in them" (Para). This kind of thinking has also been promoted by zombie morons like Connie Chung, who shrieked about "Orcs being black people, and are just a hate-filled extension of the evil Huwhite colonizers!" (Para). So, the real argument is from Leftist Libtards trying to destroy a game hobby--and in the process deeply offending and insulting anyone that doesn't agree with their Marxist-brainwashed world view. That is where the fire and debate comes from.
Apparently though, WOTC likes listening to and catering to Libtard activists that are Anti-White racists and full of hatred. In addition to these morons being absolutely mentally-ill nutjobs. Watch the WOTC SUMMIT video by Diversity & Dragons. This is all crybaby drama and sobbing by a whole crop of young, brainwashed, Libtard activists that are all mentally ill, and want everything around them to be dictated by their whims, and along the way they want to GET PAID as "Diversity Consultants" while doing no real work doing anything. These people are mentally and emotionally stunted, retarded children that can't handle reality, in the real world. Let alone engaging in a fantasy game.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
This kind of thing was always going to happen.
It was inevitable.
Exhibit A:
Just one of the guys that was lauded for "Saving D&D" back in the day...
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/339630060_579645980779969_6136694111314245516_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=kvgN0rpvYicAX8I6Fng&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=00_AfAcdxHeQkwFpzTq6O3op8bOEgzwO7NaRh3KzLaferTdfg&oe=6432130A)
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 05, 2023, 03:30:00 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2023, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: DocJones on April 05, 2023, 03:08:13 PM
Quote from: Melan on April 05, 2023, 03:03:32 PM
Very good. Now that the last problem with D&D has been solved, there are no remaining complaints left... right?
No because there are still spiders and snakes in the Monster Manual. ;-)
You say it in jest, but I fairly recently had a player in a campaign I was in literally go nearly catatonic (until their anti-anxiety meds kicked in) at the mention of the word "spider," because it reminded them of... I kid you not... sexual assault.
Until all PCs are blue spheres who overcome red spheres by turning them green and then collect their gold spheres there will be those who are too traumatized by the setting to feel safe playing rpgs.
jesus christ find a new group.
There's a reason I said "fairly recently" and not "currently."
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 05, 2023, 10:47:48 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 10:34:50 AMSanitization is the opposite of interesting. I hope WotC keeps sanitizing their game, so more people move to other, better games!
Dear God no! Let them stay in their sanitized reservation.
If they move they'll be like the people who flee California, then try and make their new home in to California. They can't help themselves.
This...having seen the types of people attracted to 5th Edition firsthand, we need to ensure that the WOTC containment zone remains intact. Though I have a feeling we have already crossed the Rubicon. I give it less than a year until the OSR sphere becomes infiltrated and under sustained attack, decentralized that it may be.
Love it.
The WotC era of D&D is the slow-motion comet-impact of awesome proportions. Can't wait for all the continued silliness until their VTT initiative tanks fucking hard.
They can kiss my half-Asian ass not on ze left side, not on ze right side, but right in ze meedle!
Fortunately; my copies of the Core Books still contain the "Original D&D 5E game, including the Names of All of the Contributors, and All of the Half Races". I purchased my copies, prior to the woke brigade lunacy.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:35:56 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 05, 2023, 04:30:44 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 05, 2023, 04:04:01 PM
First the concept of breeding completely different species was a ridiculous concept - but its a Fantasy game so why not. Hell we've got dracolisks crawling around, why not half-elves
Why is it ridiculous? Animal hybrids are pretty common:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_hybrids
Lots of people today have a little Neanderthal DNA, so there definitely were proper hybrids back in the day.
An Elf can be eternal or live for thousands of years depending on the author, a human lives for 75 years. Humans and elves from a biologic perspective are not related, humans might as well be Planaria compared to the elves. But to each their own. The whole concept is stupid. Humans, Elves and Orcs would have to very closely related to have viable offspring, and its just present in most fantasy authors perspective.
I'm aslo not keen on WotC writing school graduates trying to push this concept more, because when you get down to it they will just say every "species" is the same. I really dislike games without defining racial traits and stats. I really despise games where you are all playing the same race with a different skin color being the main difference. I saw that shit back in the day for MMORPG's, and I avoided those games like the plague.
If humans and elves are different because of magic, then they could also have babies because of magic. ;D
I agree with you, especially about different races having different traits. The half races seem like a compromise for players who can't decide (or min-maxers). Which is fine, but not my bag. WotC deciding they are racist is absurd, of course.
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 02:15:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 05, 2023, 01:53:50 PM
Inter-racial relation questions aren't hard to answer:
If in your world Orcs, Elves, etc hate each other then half-anything will face racism from both sides.
If in your world everybody gets along and sings cumbaya they wont.
There's a lot of other possibilities in-between.
Sorry if this wasn't clear. The big inter-racial relation question posed by half-elf and half-orc is:
Why are human/elf and human/orc the only two combinations allowed?
For example, in AD&D1, the best relations are mostly among demihumans like gnomes, elves, and halflings. Those have the most "G" relations in the Racial Preferences chart. So why aren't gnome/elf or halfling/dwarf possible character types?
Halfling dwarf actually is in 5e as a halfling subrace.
Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 05:31:07 PM
This kind of thing was always going to happen.
It was inevitable.
Exhibit A:
Just one of the guys that was lauded for "Saving D&D" back in the day...
PRONOUNS_IN_THE_BIO_TWEET.PNG
His job was to "Save D&D" by making it profitable. He succeeded, then he was let go as his job was done. He has as much bearing on WOTC's choices as our Dear Pundit does, which is to say jack all.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 05, 2023, 08:21:43 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 05:31:07 PM
This kind of thing was always going to happen.
It was inevitable.
Exhibit A:
Just one of the guys that was lauded for "Saving D&D" back in the day...
PRONOUNS_IN_THE_BIO_TWEET.PNG
His job was to "Save D&D" by making it profitable. He succeeded, then he was let go as his job was done. He has as much bearing on WOTC's choices as our Dear Pundit does, which is to say jack all.
He sentiments are fully representative of the culture that gained influence over, and have been in charge of D&D since WotC bought out TSR.
And "D&D" didn't need saving. The hobby would have survived a TSR bankruptcy just fine.
Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 09:27:39 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 05, 2023, 08:21:43 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 05, 2023, 05:31:07 PM
This kind of thing was always going to happen.
It was inevitable.
Exhibit A:
Just one of the guys that was lauded for "Saving D&D" back in the day...
PRONOUNS_IN_THE_BIO_TWEET.PNG
His job was to "Save D&D" by making it profitable. He succeeded, then he was let go as his job was done. He has as much bearing on WOTC's choices as our Dear Pundit does, which is to say jack all.
He sentiments are fully representative of the culture that gained influence over, and have been in charge of D&D since WotC bought out TSR.
And "D&D" didn't need saving. The hobby would have survived a TSR bankruptcy just fine.
His politics reeks of rotten fish and he looks like the gym teacher that all the girls were afraid to be alone with.
Quote from: SHARK on April 05, 2023, 05:22:58 PM
All of this mechanical arguments of preferences is just basic stuff though, Jhkim, and clearly is not what is driving the debate. WOTC clearly stated that "Half Races have clearly racist ideas in them" (Para). This kind of thinking has also been promoted by zombie morons like Connie Chung, who shrieked about "Orcs being black people, and are just a hate-filled extension of the evil Huwhite colonizers!" (Para). So, the real argument is from Leftist Libtards trying to destroy a game hobby--and in the process deeply offending and insulting anyone that doesn't agree with their Marxist-brainwashed world view. That is where the fire and debate comes from.
I think we might be talking past each other here. I don't have a problem with half-races -- and also I play with many other leftist gamers all the time, and half-races haven't been a problem. I don't think this push against half-races is a broader leftist movement. Rather, it's a specific corporate move to strategically simplify and relabel race to avoid more discussion about fantasy races. Having half-races brings up a lot of questions about how races relate, and makes them seem more like real-world ethnicities.
I likened it to "solving" racism in older stories by editing out black characters. If there's no black characters, there isn't any racism. But doing that isn't progressive at all.
By parallel, if there are no half-races, then it's easier to say "it isn't race, it's type/ancestry/whatever" and dodge any discussion.
I'd prefer to see more stuff that uses race/ancestry in different ways, and shakes up assumptions, rather than editing down. That's what I did in my current setting.
no half races...so...no centaurs?
The history of the term miscegenation is interesting. It was a term made up by anti-Lincoln democrats in an underhanded attempt to influence the 1864 presidential campaign; an early example of fake news.
Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2023, 02:19:55 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 05, 2023, 05:22:58 PM
All of this mechanical arguments of preferences is just basic stuff though, Jhkim, and clearly is not what is driving the debate. WOTC clearly stated that "Half Races have clearly racist ideas in them" (Para). This kind of thinking has also been promoted by zombie morons like Connie Chung, who shrieked about "Orcs being black people, and are just a hate-filled extension of the evil Huwhite colonizers!" (Para). So, the real argument is from Leftist Libtards trying to destroy a game hobby--and in the process deeply offending and insulting anyone that doesn't agree with their Marxist-brainwashed world view. That is where the fire and debate comes from.
I think we might be talking past each other here. I don't have a problem with half-races -- and also I play with many other leftist gamers all the time, and half-races haven't been a problem. I don't think this push against half-races is a broader leftist movement. Rather, it's a specific corporate move to strategically simplify and relabel race to avoid more discussion about fantasy races. Having half-races brings up a lot of questions about how races relate, and makes them seem more like real-world ethnicities.
I likened it to "solving" racism in older stories by editing out black characters. If there's no black characters, there isn't any racism. But doing that isn't progressive at all.
By parallel, if there are no half-races, then it's easier to say "it isn't race, it's type/ancestry/whatever" and dodge any discussion.
I'd prefer to see more stuff that uses race/ancestry in different ways, and shakes up assumptions, rather than editing down. That's what I did in my current setting.
This push against half-races came from their "diversity consultants" and people crying in social media, not from corporate decisions made on a vacuum. Though, I do think most people who identify as "left" don't really know much, if anything, about this. They just go along to get along when it comes up and bend themselves like a pretzel to make sense of it rather than question it, which is why pushes like these keep happening. But most people don't really believe this shit (including the people pushing it) because it's INSANE ideological nonsense originating from wild interpretations of Intersectional Feminism made by idiots trying to out-left each other in social media.
From the original AD&D Player's Handbook:
Half-elves;
"Half-elves do not form a race unto themselves, but rather they can be found amongst both elvenkind and men."
Half-orcs:
"Orcs are fecund and create many half-breeds, most of their offspring of such being typically orcish. However, about one-tenth of orc-human mongrels are sufficiently non-orcish to pass as human. Complete details of orcs and orc cross-breeds will be found under the heading of Orc in ADVANCED DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS MONSTER MANUAL.
As it is assumed that player characters which are of the half-orc race are within the superior 10%, they have certain advantages."
I think is safe to assume under each heading that when it comes to half-breeds, half-elves are the product of mostly consensual sex, while half-orcs are primarily the result of rape.
It's sad and pathetic that the Cult of Woke has penetrated into D&D. their efforts make D&D insular, where nothing bad happens to anybody. The world is in it's neat and tidy space and we can go off on safe and tidy adventures where nothing bad happens and there's no risk but great reward. There's not even any risk of death.
How incredibly fucking BORING.
D&D is not even the McDonalds of RPGs, or even vanilla. D&D has NO FLAVOR AT ALL. It's bland. Like a stale cracker with no salt.
D&D Human & Elf PCs: "uh Daddy - weeez in luuuv and gittin hitched!"
WOTC: "Hunh?!? WTF is that ELF doin on my porch!?!?!? GTF back to yer GLITTER-CAGE in the forest, FREAK!!!"
GM: In a desperate attempt to escape himself, Meathead becomes Archie Bunker. Pick initiative colors, brethren.
If I were to play devil's advocate, I'd say that what they want is to eliminate the names half-whatever, and give them a dedicated name (like how tieflings aren't called half-devils) because calling someone half-something implies they aren't a full person, or their other half isn't important, blah blah-CRT nonsense .
But based on my experience that the progress train has no brakes, I'd say this is the opening move in an effort to eliminate the concept of race in fantasy role-play entirely. They'll use the established trope of wizards and gods creating hybrid species, but turn it up to 11. Players will choose physical traits and cosmetic features at character creation, but none of it will be tied to any particular culture or race. Your PC can resemble a typical dwarf, but with metallic skin and antlers, your father is a seven foot tall purple three eyed man, and your other father is rabbit headed four armed xe/xir. But you're all a part of the same quirky fantasy species, and the same inclusive progressive mono-culture.
Quote from: Slipshot762 on April 06, 2023, 03:54:17 AM
no half races...so...no centaurs?
Horst Draper is going to be crushed.
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 01:38:42 PM
It's funny. I'd just been pondering and resolved my issues with half-races in my own D&D setting. I have a thread on it still active:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/half-races-and-tolkien/
The stated reason is "they're racist" -- but I think the real reason is that half-elves and half-orcs open up a bunch of inter-racial relation questions that are tricky to answer.
I can make a really solid case that you are incorrect here.
First, lets recall what Paizo did when faced with this same question. Paizo is smaller and more social justice chatty than Hasbro, and they handled their twitter leftists by renaming 'race' and 'subrace' to 'ancestry' and 'heritage', and then making Half-Elf and Half-Orc into 'heritages' you can pick if your 'ancestry' is human. Then they made it so that:
By default, half-elves and half-orcs descend from humans, but your GM might allow you to be the offspring of an elf, orc, or different ancestry. In these cases, the GM will let you select the half-elf or half-orc heritage as the heritage for this other
ancestry.This means that your "half-orc" could be descended from a golbin and an orc, and you would be a goblin (ancestry) with a half-orc (heritage).
Now, Paizo almost assuredly did much of this for woke or woke-adjacent reasoning, but here they simply answered the question mechanically, allowing a GM to optionally include such things. It also made it pretty trivial to ban half-anythings, because as they were no longer at the level of elf, human, dwarf, goblin, gnome, etc., they had far fewer half-elf or half-orc specific rules.
If all Hasbro wanted to do was address which races can mongrelize each other, they could do so as easily as Paizo did, and with a mild terminology change. I would probably assume it was for political purposes, but if I said as such any corporate bootlicker could simply say "oh look here's their reasoning, stop with the conspiracies!"
Instead, they
explicitly told us that they believe the existing thing is racist. Note that the existing thing- which is arbitrary, of course- has included arbitrary race choices, such as elf, dwarf, gnome, and halfling- in every edition of the books, even though not every setting even really includes them in a meaningful way, and many settings add their own races. Having half-elves is just as arbitrary as having elves.
So they have some mild motivation to, if their reason was politics, claim it was verisimilitude. They have NO reason to claim it was politics if in fact it was verisimilitude. That's why I'm pretty sure your assessment is incorrect.
Meanwhile, they'll probably end up giving you something that you want in your games anyway- an easy way to strip out half-elves and half-orcs, or an easy way to have all of the races be able to intermix if that's how you want to tell the story. The fact that they've never printed a half-gnome/half-halfling is just as arbitrary as to why they've never printed Thri-keen in the PHB, and certainly such mixed races could become an entire subsystem if desired- or you could simply do what much many-raced fantasy does, and assume that outside of races well-defined, the mother's form is by far the most dominant one.
QuoteI think of it like how adaptations often deal with non-white characters in older works -- by cutting out the character. i.e. cut Esmeralda from Tarzan, or cut Ebony from The Spirit, cut Sunflower from Fantasia, etc. They eliminate racism by eliminating the non-white characters so the question is less visible.
Maybe, but I actually bet they'll offer something more similar to what Paizo has done. If they want. The other main piece of PF2E is to dramatically shrink what being a given race even means. Picking elf compared to human means you start with 2 less hit points, gain Elven as a bonus language, have the "Elf" trait instead of the "Human" trait, and have Low-Light Vision. Differences actually grow as you level because you select "Ancestry Feats" that supply just the racial picks you need to optimize your character. Does your character have a class that might benefit from elven weapon familiarity? Then you take that ancestry feat. If not, you take a different one, like one that helps with casting or something. If 5.5 D&D drops the "half" entirely, I'd actually bet it because they aren't willing to turn the species pick into something that goes on for twenty levels as PF2E has done.
QuoteEDITED TO ADD: To clarify, the tricky question raised by half-elf and half-orc is why are those the only two combinations allowed? If such interrelations are possible, why aren't there all sorts of other half races?
Hasbro doesn't care, their reason was because it's "inherently racist", and they were fine to raise this question and let the DM answer it for forty+ years. It's not suddenly new, nor did it just occur to people today. People were making jokes about how a "Quarterling" would be bigger than a "Halfling" and we need the metric system or whatever in the 90s, and possibly before. It came up today because of politics, and they've told us that, not because everyone just noticed an inconsistency.
(https://rpgcharacteraweek.typepad.com/.a/6a012875c28f4e970c01a3fd2d46f9970b-320wi)
I suppose this guy ain't canon anymore. It is Tanis Full-Human now. When do we get the revised DragonLance novels, rewritten after a "sensibility pass"?
Sincerely, at this point I want Perkins and Crawford to run Dungeons & Dragons into the ground, so either some other company buys it for cheap or it becomes Hasbro "abandonware".
I'm gonna start calling them Grand Wizards of the Coast.
Quote from: zer0th on April 06, 2023, 05:10:30 PM
(https://rpgcharacteraweek.typepad.com/.a/6a012875c28f4e970c01a3fd2d46f9970b-320wi)
I suppose this guy ain't canon anymore. It is Tanis Full-Human now. When do we get the revised DragonLance novels, rewritten after a "sensibility pass"?
Sincerely, at this point I want Perkins and Crawford to run Dungeons & Dragons into the ground, so either some other company buys it for cheap or it becomes Hasbro "abandonware".
Yeah but with the 5e SRD and the OSR you can play D&D using the older version of the system and not give WOTC a dime.
I don't think it's completely nessecary to play the newest version because it's the latest and greatest.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 07, 2023, 09:01:15 AM
Yeah but with the 5e SRD and the OSR you can play D&D using the older version of the system and not give WOTC a dime.
I don't think it's completely nessecary to play the newest version because it's the latest and greatest.
5e is a good version, but it's way more popular
because it's popular- the network effect is very real. Right now, people see the creative commons SRD and can easily type "wikidot" after any popular 5e thing and get what they want (I suspect that website is kinda abusing copyright somehow). So it's easy to plug in and play, and a lot of games are on wizard's own VTT. The group I play with suddenly all had accounts there one morning, and they use it to run their 5e character sheets at least.
Playing "without giving wotc a dime" is possible now, but simply being in their network encourages others to buy it, etc. If you have a hard time finding a group of people who are interested in playing a specific OSR game, you'll have just as hard a time finding a group where everyone has some hate-boner for wotc and doesn't want to pay them. This is before considering that there are just generally considerations against piracy.
When 5.5 comes out, Hasbro will either decide to release some new stuff with a variant OGL, or perhaps they'll take the SRD and a small amount of content and push it into creative commons. Whatever they decide will be
whatever most aligns with their business strategy.
Anyway, this is pre-coffee this morning for me, so it's not my most focused post. But I'll end with these three points:
1- You can't play full 5.0 D&D right now for free legally.
2- For most players, it's easier to have stuff presented digitally, and moving things around in a properly designed editor is a gamified experience similar to allocating talent points in WoW, and much easier than dragging across laggy PDFs or opening up the third book.
3- People will do whatever others are doing in a hobby like this. If you think this doesn't apply to you personally, then it doesn't- but if that's the case, know that you aren't in the majority, there aren't that many people like that about important things, and there's even fewer willing to draw a line in the sand over a hobby.
Rewritten sensitive Dragon Lance could be hilarious.
I always think it's funny that the people who are supposedly feminist want to eliminate discussion of rape because covering it up is exactly what the rapists want, a return to the days where you aren't allowed to talk about or prosecute it.
Quote from: Venka on April 06, 2023, 02:24:08 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2023, 01:38:42 PMEDITED TO ADD: To clarify, the tricky question raised by half-elf and half-orc is why are those the only two combinations allowed? If such interrelations are possible, why aren't there all sorts of other half races?
Hasbro doesn't care, their reason was because it's "inherently racist", and they were fine to raise this question and let the DM answer it for forty+ years. It's not suddenly new, nor did it just occur to people today. People were making jokes about how a "Quarterling" would be bigger than a "Halfling" and we need the metric system or whatever in the 90s, and possibly before. It came up today because of politics, and they've told us that, not because everyone just noticed an inconsistency.
Sorry if I didn't convey this correctly. I agree about this. What I was trying to say is that Hasbro doesn't want discussion of race-related issues -- because in the current environment, discussion will lead to controversy. So they want to minimize any questions as well as similarities between fantasy races and real races. What they would like is for human/elf/dwarf to be a character type, but not comparable to race. So specifically -
Quote from: Venka on April 06, 2023, 02:24:08 PM
If all Hasbro wanted to do was address which races can mongrelize each other, they could do so as easily as Paizo did, and with a mild terminology change. I would probably assume it was for political purposes, but if I said as such any corporate bootlicker could simply say "oh look here's their reasoning, stop with the conspiracies!"
Instead, they explicitly told us that they believe the existing thing is racist.
What I was trying to say was that they don't want to answer about which races can mongrelize each other. Rather, they want no talk about mongrelization, or breeding, or any such -- because that invites comparison to real-world races and racism, and more discussion of such. Surely it is pretty obvious that they want none of "orcs can mongrelize humans but not mongrelize elves" or any other answer, because all of them are difficult.
Similarly, they don't want modules about race-based hatred like conflict between the dwarf-hating people of a town and a good but abused dwarf trying to make a life there. That's because they don't want messages about race -- even if the intended message is anti-racist.
I don't agree that half-elves are racist. Half-elves can be a device for a pro-racist message ("half-elves are an abomination of race mixing who should be rejected by both elves and humans") or an anti-racist message ("half-elves show that the lines drawn between the races are arbitrary and love should conquer all").
More broadly, fantasy and fantasy races can have different messages about the real world, depending on the specifics.
The chances against of all these people at WOTC having been dropped on their heads too many times as youths must be astronomical. Somehow they've apparently defied the odds...
Quote from: Wheetaye on April 06, 2023, 09:21:35 AM
If I were to play devil's advocate, I'd say that what they want is to eliminate the names half-whatever, and give them a dedicated name (like how tieflings aren't called half-devils) because calling someone half-something implies they aren't a full person, or their other half isn't important, blah blah-CRT nonsense .
But based on my experience that the progress train has no brakes, I'd say this is the opening move in an effort to eliminate the concept of race in fantasy role-play entirely. They'll use the established trope of wizards and gods creating hybrid species, but turn it up to 11. Players will choose physical traits and cosmetic features at character creation, but none of it will be tied to any particular culture or race. Your PC can resemble a typical dwarf, but with metallic skin and antlers, your father is a seven foot tall purple three eyed man, and your other father is rabbit headed four armed xe/xir. But you're all a part of the same quirky fantasy species, and the same inclusive progressive mono-culture.
Ha! Gamma World conquers all!
In order to stay in line, my half Chinese designer friend is renaming the half-dryads in her upcoming setting/adventure. Even though she's a bit discombobulated at her existence being declared racist.
The weird thing is, on Tuesday I was watching a half elf and a tiefling as two of the heroes in the DnD movie. Now the half elf at least is being banned from the ONE DnD core.
Quote from: S'mon on April 07, 2023, 02:51:32 PMThe weird thing is, on Tuesday I was watching a half elf and a tiefling as two of the heroes in the DnD movie. Now the half elf at least is being banned from the ONE DnD core.
Hey, at least that tiefling can still be a hero! ;)
That half-elf mutt shoulda been more demonic, though. :P
Quote from: S'mon on April 07, 2023, 02:51:32 PM
In order to stay in line, my half Chinese designer friend is renaming the half-dryads in her upcoming setting/adventure. Even though she's a bit discombobulated at her existence being declared racist.
The weird thing is, on Tuesday I was watching a half elf and a tiefling as two of the heroes in the DnD movie. Now the half elf at least is being banned from the ONE DnD core.
I read a page a while ago that made all dryads into half-hamadryads. A hamadryad here is your typical D&D dryad. Bonded to a tree and everything. A regular dryad is the daughter of a dryad and a mortal man. Adventurer material, basically. She isn't bound to a tree, but if she bonds to one then her lifespan is extended to the tree's.
Removing half races from the game on these grounds just seems like really poor logic and not especially good ethical thinking either if that is aim. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a half race in the game. First races are not really reflective of real world ones, but even if something like a half elf or half orc occasionally carries some of that "I was born in two worlds trope", the trope itself is fine, and increases empathy (it isn't working to thwart it). So I just don't understand the position they are taking here.
Also just from a game design standpoint, all the solutions I am seeing offered either unnecessarily convolute character creation, tack something like being half elven onto another mechanic in the game that doesn't seem like a natural fit (it feels very kludgy) or waters down the concept so there is no real mechanical weight to being half elven.
I do get some of the arguments about half races around things like "if there are half elves, why no half gnomes?" but I think the reasoning there is just simplicity, demand, making the character choices manageable for the designers to balance out and give clear roles to, etc. Plus that sort of elaboration can be house ruled in if people are dying to play a half gnome or some mixture that doesn't include a human parent.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 08, 2023, 01:32:45 PM
Removing half races from the game on these grounds just seems like really poor logic and not especially good ethical thinking either if that is aim. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a half race in the game. First races are not really reflective of real world ones, but even if something like a half elf or half orc occasionally carries some of that "I was born in two worlds trope", the trope itself is fine, and increases empathy (it isn't working to thwart it). So I just don't understand the position they are taking here.
Also just from a game design standpoint, all the solutions I am seeing offered either unnecessarily convolute character creation, tack something like being half elven onto another mechanic in the game that doesn't seem like a natural fit (it feels very kludgy) or waters down the concept so there is no real mechanical weight to being half elven.
I do get some of the arguments about half races around things like "if there are half elves, why no half gnomes?" but I think the reasoning there is just simplicity, demand, making the character choices manageable for the designers to balance out and give clear roles to, etc. Plus that sort of elaboration can be house ruled in if people are dying to play a half gnome or some mixture that doesn't include a human parent.
Because divide and conquer, they want everybody to have a racial awakening and to segregate. Since they believe that monkey sees, monkey does they need to remove everything that works against their enlightened plan to stop racism by creating more racism.
As for the game mechanics part, yes, I have said something similar upthread.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 08, 2023, 01:32:45 PM
Removing half races from the game on these grounds just seems like really poor logic and not especially good ethical thinking either if that is aim. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a half race in the game. First races are not really reflective of real world ones, but even if something like a half elf or half orc occasionally carries some of that "I was born in two worlds trope", the trope itself is fine, and increases empathy (it isn't working to thwart it). So I just don't understand the position they are taking here.
The problem with the "I was born of two worlds" trope is that it connotations of real-world mixed-race people. For a corporation like Hasbro, they don't want real-world race connotations, even if it is positive -- because having such messaging opens up debate and discussion. You can see this in responses here, where Hasbro/WotC is likened to the KKK opposing miscegenation.
From a corporate point of view, having messaging about real-world races opens them up for liability.
I agree that it isn't good ethical thinking.
Quote from: jhkim on April 09, 2023, 11:25:47 AM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 08, 2023, 01:32:45 PM
Removing half races from the game on these grounds just seems like really poor logic and not especially good ethical thinking either if that is aim. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a half race in the game. First races are not really reflective of real world ones, but even if something like a half elf or half orc occasionally carries some of that "I was born in two worlds trope", the trope itself is fine, and increases empathy (it isn't working to thwart it). So I just don't understand the position they are taking here.
The problem with the "I was born of two worlds" trope is that it connotations of real-world mixed-race people. For a corporation like Hasbro, they don't want real-world race connotations, even if it is positive -- because having such messaging opens up debate and discussion. You can see this in responses here, where Hasbro/WotC is likened to the KKK opposing miscegenation.
From a corporate point of view, having messaging about real-world races opens them up for liability.
I agree that it isn't good ethical thinking.
Well duh! We're humans, we only know the human experience and can only draw from and relate to the human experience.
What's the "message? I haven't seen Grand Wizards of the KKKoast endorsing discrimination in it's books (IRL I have).
This is the same idiocy as not having slavers as the bad guys because IRL slavery. Who ARE you protecting by this? IMHO the current year IRL slavers.
D&D doesn't have and never has had, "messaging about real-world races" (Prove me wrong, I dare you). Ergo they aren't open to liability.
It's not only bad ethical thinking, it's unethical bordering on evil: The "fish out of water", "born of two worlds" tropes among others are just a way to insert conflict, since the books have NEVER stated that one or the other side of said conflict is correct, much less we should follow that side's logic IRL arguing against the inclusion of such tropes is STUPID or EVIL, because it prevents dealing with such conflicts in an imaginary world where the results will be only real to figments of the imagination.
Quote from: jhkim on April 09, 2023, 11:25:47 AM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 08, 2023, 01:32:45 PM
Removing half races from the game on these grounds just seems like really poor logic and not especially good ethical thinking either if that is aim. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a half race in the game. First races are not really reflective of real world ones, but even if something like a half elf or half orc occasionally carries some of that "I was born in two worlds trope", the trope itself is fine, and increases empathy (it isn't working to thwart it). So I just don't understand the position they are taking here.
The problem with the "I was born of two worlds" trope is that it connotations of real-world mixed-race people. For a corporation like Hasbro, they don't want real-world race connotations, even if it is positive -- because having such messaging opens up debate and discussion. You can see this in responses here, where Hasbro/WotC is likened to the KKK opposing miscegenation.
I understand the cooperate concern. I just don't think it is a good way to design D&D or RPGs in general. I think the problem with it though is it leads to less interesting content and fewer tropes that resonate with people, over people getting upset online. Maybe I am overly optimistic, but I think a lot of these controversies go away (on both sides of the political aisle) if they just stop responding to them or if they simply ignore them. There is a protracted discussion about this elsewhere online and it is quickly becoming clear pretty much every avenue they can pursue as a solution to the perceived problem is going to trigger a controversy with some amount of people.
QuoteFrom a corporate point of view, having messaging about real-world races opens them up for liability.
I really don't see them suffering legal consequences for having half elves in the game. If people want to read real world messaging they can. And obviously there could be some amount of real world borrowing or subtext in a given edition (that is different from messaging). But I would be stunned if they were successfully sued by someone on these grounds (and I think it would be a death blow for creative expression in this country if it succeeded).
Quote
I agree that it isn't good ethical thinking.
It definitely seems like shaky ethical thinking to me for sure
Quote from: jhkim on April 09, 2023, 11:25:47 AM
The problem with the "I was born of two worlds" trope is that it connotations of real-world mixed-race people. For a corporation like Hasbro, they don't want real-world race connotations, even if it is positive -- because having such messaging opens up debate and discussion. You can see this in responses here, where Hasbro/WotC is likened to the KKK opposing miscegenation.
From a corporate point of view, having messaging about real-world races opens them up for liability.
I agree that it isn't good ethical thinking.
Why? Because they are listening to the vocal minority who the majority of doesn't even play D&D. So it's better to turn off the players who are actually playing D&D and who are actually buying the books?
Quote from: mightybrain on April 09, 2023, 06:48:54 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 09, 2023, 06:09:08 PM
who are actually buying the books?
Good question.
They can keep shooting themselves in the foot. I am running an ongoing D&D 5e game and I won't buy any WOTC books going forward. Third party products, Absolutly but not from WOTC. Hope it's worth it to make less money.
I found the following two rules that dominate most tabletop players:
A: Don't learn new rules if you can help it. If you have too, have them be as similar as possible to what came before.
B: Follow the hype. Nostalgia, familiarity, and mass appeal take priority over any kind of good design sense.
This explains why D&D remains any kind of market leader. Same deal for MTG, and same deal for W40K. Most game groups would rather chew both their arms off then learn a new system. My friend is currently playing a fucking Naruto 5e game. He says it sucks and is a terrible fit, yet everybody sticks with it out of habit, like a TV show on its 6th season.
Right now as long as 5e boils the pot slowly and doesn't try any more outragous stunts, everybody continues to play it. As a giant Study by the EU showed, piracy for games doesn't actually hurt sales and mostly acts as free publicity.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 09, 2023, 12:13:44 PM
Well duh! We're humans, we only know the human experience and can only draw from and relate to the human experience.
While that's true, I see people on both sides only using that argument selectively.
"Half-races are (very loosely) reflective of the experiences of mixed race human beings because we still live in unenlightened times where mixed race people feel like perpetual foreigners in their country of birth."
"Orcs are the Other and therefore racist because the Other is a racist construct. They're racist against [insert any human group here, like Celts, Mongols, Algonquin, or Zulu, depending on which the current depiction is coded most closely to]."
Although if we stop to think about it, the reasons these things exist isn't about fostering racist attitudes.
Half-races are used because they're superficially cool in the "angsty teenager whose parents don't understand him" sense so it fosters empathy. Alienation is a universal human experience.
Orcs (or other humanoids) are used as a matter of game convention because you need guilt-free targets for whatever reason. If we used humans, then we'd start wondering whether we're the bad guys for breaking into their homes, killing them and stealing everything that isn't nailed down. Even human bandits have or had families, and it takes a fair amount of indoctrination and propaganda to overcome that empathy. Whereas building empathy simply requires empathizing a person's basic humanity (e.g. suffering, spirituality, art, etc).
Also, Tolkien did it first. Monkey see, monkey do. That probably has like 99% to do with it.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 01:21:41 AM
I found the following two rules that dominate most tabletop players:
A: Don't learn new rules if you can help it. If you have too, have them be as similar as possible to what came before.
B: Follow the hype. Nostalgia, familiarity, and mass appeal take priority over any kind of good design sense.
This explains why D&D remains any kind of market leader. Same deal for MTG, and same deal for W40K. Most game groups would rather chew both their arms off then learn a new system. My friend is currently playing a fucking Naruto 5e game. He says it sucks and is a terrible fit, yet everybody sticks with it out of habit, like a TV show on its 6th season.
Yeah, that's effing stupid. I find it incredibly frustrating. I suspect a key part of the problem is that these rules are often extremely complicated, which creates sunk cost fallacy.
With video games like crpgs, there's trends but there aren't really any universal mechanics. Gamers don't have a choice because crpgs don't have infinite content, so they play new games regardless of precise mechanics. The game does most of the actual work for you and plays very quickly. In ttrpgs a single fight could take several sessions, whereas in a crpg it could take a few minutes at most.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 09:42:41 AMI find it incredibly frustrating. I suspect a key part of the problem is that these rules are often extremely complicated, which creates sunk cost fallacy.
Possibly, but I also suspect that something like 30% of all TTRPG players aren't there for the mechanics but for the idea of imagination fighting (and 40% are just there to chill). Mechanics are something they put up with to engage with the idea at all.
Its the niche crowd that even cares about the idea of mechanics or refining their core experience, or homebrewing or experimentation. D&D is like 70% of the market? Again checks out.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 12:53:11 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 09:42:41 AMI find it incredibly frustrating. I suspect a key part of the problem is that these rules are often extremely complicated, which creates sunk cost fallacy.
Possibly, but I also suspect that something like 30% of all TTRPG players aren't there for the mechanics but for the idea of imagination fighting (and 40% are just there to chill). Mechanics are something they put up with to engage with the idea at all.
Its the niche crowd that even cares about the idea of mechanics or refining their core experience, or homebrewing or experimentation. D&D is like 70% of the market? Again checks out.
What is even the point then? People don't play board games for the
idea of playing a board game: they play the damn game because of the experience created by the mechanics.
People play video games for the gameplay more than anything else. That's why Bejeweled clones are so popular on mobile devices. Your video game could have the stupidest story, or no story at all, but as long as the core gameplay loop is
fun addictive then players won't give a flying fuck about the writing.
Why are ttrpgs such an outlier in that respect?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 01:37:49 PMWhat is even the point then?
To hang out, drink a beer, chat a bit. TTRPGs are not the exception. They are the normal and with the popularization of 5e are now more normal.
Its for the same reason people go see sequel's or watch a series that's familiar but lacking all zest after 7 seasons. Most people do indeed do anything as just a side excuse to relax. This includes boardgames, videogames, etc.
5e is the Monopoly of TTRPGs. It's not really great but exposure means it's ok. There are way better games to play given in its category of complexity but those are niche because popularity doesn't breed refinement or improvement.
Actually engaging with a hobby is a niche.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 01:37:49 PMWhy are ttrpgs such an outlier in that respect?
Because you actually have to sit down and read the damn thing, internalize the rules and interpret them, rather than just bash a few keys on some type of controller and learn as you play along. The learning curve and barrier of entry to get into TTRPGs is far bigger than for video games or board games. And you don't even get cool visual aids to help you along. Even if you have miniatures and game terrain, that's almost a separate hobby on its own, with its own steep barrier of entry (both, in artistic skills and monetary investment to get all that extra stuff) that doesn't directly aid learning the game, just visualize the game world (and arguably gets in the way of even that, when it doesn't match the situations or stuff present during play).
But anyone can just plug and play a video game, and learn through trial and error really quick. And board game rules tend to be really simple and condensed compared to TTRPGs.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 10, 2023, 04:04:29 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 01:37:49 PMWhy are ttrpgs such an outlier in that respect?
Because you actually have to sit down and read the damn thing, internalize the rules and interpret them, rather than just bash a few keys on some type of controller and learn as you play along. The learning curve and barrier of entry to get into TTRPGs is far bigger than for video games or board games. And you don't even get cool visual aids to help you along. Even if you have miniatures and game terrain, that's almost a separate hobby on its own, with its own steep barrier of entry (both, in artistic skills and monetary investment to get all that extra stuff) that doesn't directly aid learning the game, just visualize the game world (and arguably gets in the way of even that, when it doesn't match the situations or stuff present during play).
But anyone can just plug and play a video game, and learn through trial and error really quick. And board game rules tend to be really simple and condensed compared to TTRPGs.
You don't really require ANY artistic skills or much money to have terrain and minis: https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1645509651499196416 (https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1645509651499196416)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 12:53:11 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 09:42:41 AMI find it incredibly frustrating. I suspect a key part of the problem is that these rules are often extremely complicated, which creates sunk cost fallacy.
Possibly, but I also suspect that something like 30% of all TTRPG players aren't there for the mechanics but for the idea of imagination fighting (and 40% are just there to chill). Mechanics are something they put up with to engage with the idea at all.
Its the niche crowd that even cares about the idea of mechanics or refining their core experience, or homebrewing or experimentation. D&D is like 70% of the market? Again checks out.
As someone who hasn't been primarily a D&D player, I do find it frustrating. However, in the bigger picture, I generally find that blaming the masses for having the wrong taste doesn't get me anywhere.
I agree that many if not most D&D players aren't invested in the mechanics -- but they still want robust mechanics to exist. There have been lots of efforts at more rules-light RPGs, and none of them have had mass-market success to rival D&D. The closest rivals to D&D have been World of Darkness and Pathfinder, which are still multi-hundred page tomes.
The learning curve is a hurdle, but it's one that most players prefer to go through.
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 06:13:23 PMHowever, in the bigger picture, I generally find that blaming the masses for having the wrong taste doesn't get me anywhere.
I don't blame anybody for not being invested in a imaginary kids game. Being healthy, having good social skills, being responsible members of the community are so much more valuable then taste in entertainment. And the masses by and large make that stuff happen. They just also have absoutely terrible taste in entertainment.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 04:11:26 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 10, 2023, 04:04:29 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 10, 2023, 01:37:49 PMWhy are ttrpgs such an outlier in that respect?
Because you actually have to sit down and read the damn thing, internalize the rules and interpret them, rather than just bash a few keys on some type of controller and learn as you play along. The learning curve and barrier of entry to get into TTRPGs is far bigger than for video games or board games. And you don't even get cool visual aids to help you along. Even if you have miniatures and game terrain, that's almost a separate hobby on its own, with its own steep barrier of entry (both, in artistic skills and monetary investment to get all that extra stuff) that doesn't directly aid learning the game, just visualize the game world (and arguably gets in the way of even that, when it doesn't match the situations or stuff present during play).
But anyone can just plug and play a video game, and learn through trial and error really quick. And board game rules tend to be really simple and condensed compared to TTRPGs.
You don't really require ANY artistic skills or much money to have terrain and minis: https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1645509651499196416 (https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1645509651499196416)
Some of that still requires some degree of "Arts & Crafts" skill and investment, which is what I really meant by "artistic skills" (not "fine arts" per se, but general aesthetic sense), as well as lots of time (which I should've mentioned) and stuff like printers, which I don't have.
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 06:13:23 PMThe learning curve is a hurdle, but it's one that most players prefer to go through.
I would disagree with this on the basis that most players (in my experience) don't even bother learning the rules, but lay that responsibility squarely on the GM. So I think it's more a name recognition and "official/authorative sources" type of thing, than actually preferring a steep learning curve.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 10, 2023, 07:45:25 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 06:13:23 PMThe learning curve is a hurdle, but it's one that most players prefer to go through.
I would disagree with this on the basis that most players (in my experience) don't even bother learning the rules, but lay that responsibility squarely on the GM. So I think it's more a name recognition and "official/authorative sources" type of thing, than actually preferring a steep learning curve.
Even if they don't fully learn the rules, my suggestion is that they prefer that there be a robust set of rules to learn. That's on the basis of many rules-light RPGs failing to gain traction over the years.
I don't think it's simply name recognition. If Hasbro replaced the current D&D rules with a minimalist set of rules like Risus that is easy to learn, then I suspect most players would abandon D&D for Pathfinder or some other ruleset like Shadowdark.
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 07:57:39 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 10, 2023, 07:45:25 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 06:13:23 PMThe learning curve is a hurdle, but it's one that most players prefer to go through.
I would disagree with this on the basis that most players (in my experience) don't even bother learning the rules, but lay that responsibility squarely on the GM. So I think it's more a name recognition and "official/authorative sources" type of thing, than actually preferring a steep learning curve.
Even if they don't fully learn the rules, my suggestion is that they prefer that there be a robust set of rules to learn. That's on the basis of many rules-light RPGs failing to gain traction over the years.
I don't think it's simply name recognition. If Hasbro replaced the current D&D rules with a minimalist set of rules like Risus that is easy to learn, then I suspect most players would abandon D&D for Pathfinder or some other ruleset like Shadowdark.
Yeah, that might be true to some extend. I think even if they're too lazy to learn the rules, most players need a certain degree of complexity in terms of character development and rules for stuff you can do to really get invested in the game. But I also think that most rules light games being kind of amateurish, freeware and/or unknowns plays into it.
So, the new rules say you can be a half-anything but they don't call it that. Only dumber:
Choose the two races of your parents, now one of them gives you the looks and the other the stats. So now you can be a Human looking Half-Orc with full Orc stats and none of the negatives. Because reasons...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2023, 12:17:07 AM
So, the new rules say you can be a half-anything but they don't call it that. Only dumber:
Choose the two races of your parents, now one of them gives you the looks and the other the stats. So now you can be a Human looking Half-Orc with full Orc stats and none of the negatives. Because reasons...
I like his ghost costume, I see he's taking after Critical Role and mixing in LARP at the table.
Quote from: Slambo on April 05, 2023, 12:56:01 PM
They specifically mentioned they're keeping teiflings.
WotC is obsessed with being "Edgy" and "SAFE!" at the same time.
They override half the established monster lore with "DEMON!" or some DEMON! influence and then turn around and try to witewash anything "problematic"
They are the most scizo company ever.
Ooh! I really wanna play a "Child of Different Humanoid Kinds"! That sounds like a catchy name to have on your character sheet! I'm sure there's gonna be enough space in your sheet's race species "Humanoid Kind" section to write all that down.
Child of Different Humanoid Kinds HERE WE GO!!! 8)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2023, 12:17:07 AM
So, the new rules say you can be a half-anything but they don't call it that. Only dumber:
Choose the two races of your parents, now one of them gives you the looks and the other the stats. So now you can be a Human looking Half-Orc with full Orc stats and none of the negatives. Because reasons...
This strikes me as a ham-handed attempt to backpedal from an astonishingly dumb take to start with.
Typical WotC.
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 07:57:39 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 10, 2023, 07:45:25 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 06:13:23 PMThe learning curve is a hurdle, but it's one that most players prefer to go through.
I would disagree with this on the basis that most players (in my experience) don't even bother learning the rules, but lay that responsibility squarely on the GM. So I think it's more a name recognition and "official/authorative sources" type of thing, than actually preferring a steep learning curve.
Even if they don't fully learn the rules, my suggestion is that they prefer that there be a robust set of rules to learn. That's on the basis of many rules-light RPGs failing to gain traction over the years.
I don't think it's simply name recognition. If Hasbro replaced the current D&D rules with a minimalist set of rules like Risus that is easy to learn, then I suspect most players would abandon D&D for Pathfinder or some other ruleset like Shadowdark.
I think what makes D&D work is it has a fairly simple and straight forward character creation process but other areas of the game are quite deep (large number of spells, magic items, fair amount of combat rules, etc). Where I think the designers are going wrong, at least in my humble opinion, is they have been complicating the character creation process and trying to make it more customizable but it works because you just pick class and race and those come packaged with abilities and flavor. There are lots of games out there that don't do that, that are more customizable (I make games that have more involved character creation). When D&D starts chasing that experience I have found it loses something. That said, simple character creation shouldn't be confused for the whole thing needing to be simple. D&D isn't the most complicated game in the world, but it also isn't the simplest or easiest to learn (when I think back to AD&D, that took time to figure out reading through the book).
Quote from: Omega on April 12, 2023, 06:16:58 AM
WotC is obsessed with being "Edgy" and "SAFE!" at the same time.
They override half the established monster lore with "DEMON!" or some DEMON! influence and then turn around and try to witewash anything "problematic"
They are the most scizo company ever.
No doubt the new version/edition is going to mention X-Cards in the rules and recommend their use.
I ran a game at a convention and I was given X-Cards. Placed them in the empty seat next to me along with the other books I was storing to the side and never mentioned them and no one brought them up.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 11:49:54 AM
Quote from: Omega on April 12, 2023, 06:16:58 AM
WotC is obsessed with being "Edgy" and "SAFE!" at the same time.
They override half the established monster lore with "DEMON!" or some DEMON! influence and then turn around and try to witewash anything "problematic"
They are the most scizo company ever.
No doubt the new version/edition is going to mention X-Cards in the rules and recommend their use.
I ran a game at a convention and I was given X-Cards. Placed them in the empty seat next to me along with the other books I was storing to the side and never mentioned them and no one brought them up.
I hate everything about "safety tools" at a game table. I think the thing I miss most about "the good ol' days" is the fact that regardless of where you landed politically or even socially there was always a sense of common decency that the entire culture agreed on. Even people who participated in culturally unsavory activities like BDSM and swinging had the self-awareness to know it wasn't something that was brought up in polite company. There was a social compact about what was and wasn't socially acceptable to bring up in public on a wide variety of subjects. And people kept their physical and mental conditions to themselves when possible. Nowadays it's some perverse badge of honor to list all of your problems - mental ones especially. So now we have to deal with people who freak the fuck out over the stupidest shit imaginable. Don't get me wrong, I've had issues with stupid shit, but I put effort into making sure that it didn't define the boundaries of whatever I was doing with other people. And if I felt it was going to be a big enough problem, I didn't participate in whatever the activity was.
The way I see it, if I had severe mental issues where talking about insanity "triggered" me, I wouldn't be playing games like Call of Cthulhu. But this is 2023, and we're supposed to have serious conversations about how mental illness is portrayed in such games because an honest portrayal might offend somebody. ::)
Quote from: Omega on April 12, 2023, 06:16:58 AMWotC is obsessed with being "Edgy" and "SAFE!" at the same time.
They override half the established monster lore with "DEMON!" or some DEMON! influence and then turn around and try to witewash anything "problematic"
They are the most scizo company ever.
It all makes sense when you realize wokists worship at the feet of some groups, but actively loathe and attack Christians. Christianity, White Supremacy, Patriarchy, it's a connected web of evil to them.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 12, 2023, 07:33:51 AM
Ooh! I really wanna play a "Child of Different Humanoid Kinds"! That sounds like a catchy name to have on your character sheet! I'm sure there's gonna be enough space in your sheet's race species "Humanoid Kind" section to write all that down.
Well between that and the gender-wheel and variable pronouns section, we will need to make some room...here, get rid of this stats section. Math is racist anyway.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 11:49:54 AM
No doubt the new version/edition is going to mention X-Cards in the rules and recommend their use.
I ran a game at a convention and I was given X-Cards. Placed them in the empty seat next to me along with the other books I was storing to the side and never mentioned them and no one brought them up.
Oh my Goddess! Ignoring X-cards is one of my triggers! How could you...I can't even...
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/hyperventilating.gif)
Anyway If I would wager why "half-species" are racist in wokist eyes, is because the idea that races have inherent traits, and those traits can be transferred or mixed or such is racist. Rather than every race being interchangeable.
The reason this doesn't apply to half-demons is that wokists have not applied this philosophy to demons yet. But give it 5 years and eventually the reason demons are evil will be revealed to be systematic and not innate.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 12:19:44 PM
I hate everything about "safety tools" at a game table. I think the thing I miss most about "the good ol' days" is the fact that regardless of where you landed politically or even socially there was always a sense of common decency that the entire culture agreed on. Even people who participated in culturally unsavory activities like BDSM and swinging had the self-awareness to know it wasn't something that was brought up in polite company. There was a social compact about what was and wasn't socially acceptable to bring up in public on a wide variety of subjects. And people kept their physical and mental conditions to themselves when possible. Nowadays it's some perverse badge of honor to list all of your problems - mental ones especially. So now we have to deal with people who freak the fuck out over the stupidest shit imaginable. Don't get me wrong, I've had issues with stupid shit, but I put effort into making sure that it didn't define the boundaries of whatever I was doing with other people. And if I felt it was going to be a big enough problem, I didn't participate in whatever the activity was.
The way I see it, if I had severe mental issues where talking about insanity "triggered" me, I wouldn't be playing games like Call of Cthulhu. But this is 2023, and we're supposed to have serious conversations about how mental illness is portrayed in such games because an honest portrayal might offend somebody. ::)
Agreed. Safety tools are ridiculous. If they actually did anything useful, we would see them at pubs, restaurants, sporting events, or other places where people socialize. You're at the pub having a beer. What if the guy next to you says something harmful!!!??? Better demand the bartender set out an X card. Or pack your own.
Safety tools are for the socially maladapted who, rather than try to adapt to regular social situations, demand that the whole group cater to their fragility. Or worse, they have a disability fetish and want others to validate it.
Every generation has their flaws, and this generation's flaws include safety tools, ghosting, and similar things motivated by fear of regular human interaction.
I posted this in Pundit's "Full Klan" thread, but that is currently occupied by a side-topic and it seems like some posters missed it...
----
I haven't even seen any complaints about half-elves even from a vocal minority. I have seen a vocal minority complaining about orcs and half-orcs as the "savage primitive" trope -- and about PC ability adjustments as linking race to what job one is good at. So I agree there is a vocal minority like this, but I haven't seen them complaining about half-elves or stout halflings.
So this seems like pro-active reframing at most, though now it seems like they are walking back on Crawford's statement. Last week, they had this brief statement:
QuoteOptions for creating characters descended from more than one species are not being removed from Dungeons & Dragons.
Proposed adjustments to character origins have been open to the community since August 2022 and will be revised further: http://spr.ly/6019OyEdH
Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/DnDBeyond/status/1644119263286812672
That links to the D&DOne documents from last year, which has this sidebar:
QuoteCHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS
Thanks to the magical workings of the multiverse, Humanoids of different kinds sometimes have children together. For example, folk who have a human parent and an orc or an elf parent are particularly common. Many other combinations are possible.
If you'd like to play the child of such a wondrous pairing, choose two Race options that are Humanoid to represent your parents. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. For example, if your character has a halfling and a gnome parent, you might choose Halfling for your game traits and then decide that your character has the pointed ears that are characteristic of a gnome.
Finally, determine the average of the two options' Life Span traits to figure out how long your character might live. For example, a child of a halfling and a gnome has an average life span of 288 years.
Source: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/one-dnd/character-origins
----
To which GhostNinja asked:
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 11:44:02 AM
So was Crawford talking out of turn if WOTC had to walk back his statement?
I have no idea. It seems possible, since it was a short quote in an interview rather than a written official announcement.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 12:19:44 PM
I hate everything about "safety tools" at a game table. I think the thing I miss most about "the good ol' days" is the fact that regardless of where you landed politically or even socially there was always a sense of common decency that the entire culture agreed on. Even people who participated in culturally unsavory activities like BDSM and swinging had the self-awareness to know it wasn't something that was brought up in polite company. There was a social compact about what was and wasn't socially acceptable to bring up in public on a wide variety of subjects. And people kept their physical and mental conditions to themselves when possible. Nowadays it's some perverse badge of honor to list all of your problems - mental ones especially. So now we have to deal with people who freak the fuck out over the stupidest shit imaginable. Don't get me wrong, I've had issues with stupid shit, but I put effort into making sure that it didn't define the boundaries of whatever I was doing with other people. And if I felt it was going to be a big enough problem, I didn't participate in whatever the activity was.
The way I see it, if I had severe mental issues where talking about insanity "triggered" me, I wouldn't be playing games like Call of Cthulhu. But this is 2023, and we're supposed to have serious conversations about how mental illness is portrayed in such games because an honest portrayal might offend somebody. ::)
I agree. If you have to use safety tools to play an RPG you probably shouldn't be playing, you are too weak of a person to actually game. I have said before and I will say again, if anyone comes up to my game and wants to play but use safety tools they will be not so nicely told to F Off.
I don't know if I am lucky or not but I have seen games in game stores and run games in game stores and never see safety tools. I don't they took off the way the creators wanted them to and good.
I have a player who is 14 almost 15 and a 16 year old player (both girls) and they don't bring them up. I think safety tools are big online and not so much in person.
Of course I keep things PG in my game because thats just how I have always run games.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 12:39:55 PM
Oh my Goddess! Ignoring X-cards is one of my triggers! How could you...I can't even...
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/hyperventilating.gif)
Please don't lock me up and hand me over to the SJW's :)
Quote from: rytrasmi on April 12, 2023, 01:00:58 PM
Agreed. Safety tools are ridiculous. If they actually did anything useful, we would see them at pubs, restaurants, sporting events, or other places where people socialize. You're at the pub having a beer. What if the guy next to you says something harmful!!!??? Better demand the bartender set out an X card. Or pack your own.
Safety tools are for the socially maladapted who, rather than try to adapt to regular social situations, demand that the whole group cater to their fragility. Or worse, they have a disability fetish and want others to validate it.
Every generation has their flaws, and this generation's flaws include safety tools, ghosting, and similar things motivated by fear of regular human interaction.
I totally agree. Good GM/DM's will always be good and the crappy GM/DMs we hear about (who are a minority) will always suck and would never user safety tools in the first place so they solve nothing.
Just wait until the sensitivity readers discover D&D promotes monarchism.
Quote from: DocJones on April 12, 2023, 03:13:01 PM
Just wait until the sensitivity readers discover D&D promotes monarchism.
SHHHH not so loud. Maybe they won't find out. :)
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 12, 2023, 10:01:06 AM
I think what makes D&D work is it has a fairly simple and straight forward character creation process but other areas of the game are quite deep (large number of spells, magic items, fair amount of combat rules, etc). Where I think the designers are going wrong, at least in my humble opinion, is they have been complicating the character creation process and trying to make it more customizable but it works because you just pick class and race and those come packaged with abilities and flavor. There are lots of games out there that don't do that, that are more customizable (I make games that have more involved character creation). When D&D starts chasing that experience I have found it loses something. That said, simple character creation shouldn't be confused for the whole thing needing to be simple. D&D isn't the most complicated game in the world, but it also isn't the simplest or easiest to learn (when I think back to AD&D, that took time to figure out reading through the book).
I'm not sure what you mean here - it seems to me that D&D character creation was simple in B/X, but hasn't been simple since WOTC came to town?! I have players with PhDs in Mathematics who take pregens rather than faff about trying to figure out 5e character "builds", even in their second or third campaign. (Agreed that other games can be much tougher; I'm trying to figure out how to get my players interested in something skills-based like Mythras, but even WWN might be too fiddly for some.)
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 01:57:12 PM
I totally agree. Good GM/DM's will always be good and the crappy GM/DMs we hear about (who are a minority) will always suck and would never user safety tools in the first place so they solve nothing.
Some of my coworkers - heck, some of my family members - think I'm a good DM, some think I'm a bad DM. It's hella subjective, because different players are looking for different things in their games. There might be a rough consensus here, and _some_ people in the hobby might be wrong, but I don't think we have a monopoly on THE FUN(TM).
I hope that's hyperbole, because anyone with a PhD in Math who can't grasp how to make a 5e character should surrender their degree stat. Ten year olds do it all the time.
Quote from: Festus on April 13, 2023, 08:14:22 PM
I hope that's hyperbole, because anyone with a PhD in Math who can't grasp how to make a 5e character should surrender their degree stat. Ten year olds do it all the time.
Hollywood has spun the myth that being wired for hard math makes people a genius, whereas a lot of such people are hyper-specialized to the point of being useless at everything else. Much like being a chess grand master means you're fantastic at memorization, rather than a tactical genius who can bring down governments.
Quote from: Naburimannu on April 13, 2023, 04:12:28 AM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 12, 2023, 10:01:06 AM
I think what makes D&D work is it has a fairly simple and straight forward character creation process but other areas of the game are quite deep (large number of spells, magic items, fair amount of combat rules, etc). Where I think the designers are going wrong, at least in my humble opinion, is they have been complicating the character creation process and trying to make it more customizable but it works because you just pick class and race and those come packaged with abilities and flavor. There are lots of games out there that don't do that, that are more customizable (I make games that have more involved character creation). When D&D starts chasing that experience I have found it loses something. That said, simple character creation shouldn't be confused for the whole thing needing to be simple. D&D isn't the most complicated game in the world, but it also isn't the simplest or easiest to learn (when I think back to AD&D, that took time to figure out reading through the book).
I'm not sure what you mean here - it seems to me that D&D character creation was simple in B/X, but hasn't been simple since WOTC came to town?! I have players with PhDs in Mathematics who take pregens rather than faff about trying to figure out 5e character "builds", even in their second or third campaign. (Agreed that other games can be much tougher; I'm trying to figure out how to get my players interested in something skills-based like Mythras, but even WWN might be too fiddly for some.)
I just mean the way you choose race plus class and how those are packages of abilities (rather than more customizable systems where there is more fiddling). I agree it has been slowly moving towards more involved character creation. And obviously there is a huge difference from something like B/X versus 3E. But the conversation I am seeing now around half races seems to indicate a further increase towards fiddly customization (take with a grain of salt as I only played a little 4e and have played very little 5E as well).
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 13, 2023, 08:42:45 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 13, 2023, 08:14:22 PM
I hope that's hyperbole, because anyone with a PhD in Math who can't grasp how to make a 5e character should surrender their degree stat. Ten year olds do it all the time.
Hollywood has spun the myth that being wired for hard math makes people a genius, whereas a lot of such people are hyper-specialized to the point of being useless at everything else. Much like being a chess grand master means you're fantastic at memorization, rather than a tactical genius who can bring down governments.
Nevertheless, anyone who has successfully navigated ~20+ years of education kindergarten through grad school should be able to choose standard array, a race, a class, and add single digit numbers together. You don't even have to roll HP since every 1st level character starts with the max. And if that's just too damn hard, D&D Beyond will do it all for you point and click. There's plenty to dislike about 5e and I can see deciding that the time spent creating a custom character isn't worth the effort. But complaining that character creation is overly complex is absurd. Sounds more like a player who can't be bothered than one who is overwhelmed.
Quote from: Festus on April 13, 2023, 09:50:59 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 13, 2023, 08:42:45 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 13, 2023, 08:14:22 PM
I hope that's hyperbole, because anyone with a PhD in Math who can't grasp how to make a 5e character should surrender their degree stat. Ten year olds do it all the time.
Hollywood has spun the myth that being wired for hard math makes people a genius, whereas a lot of such people are hyper-specialized to the point of being useless at everything else. Much like being a chess grand master means you're fantastic at memorization, rather than a tactical genius who can bring down governments.
Nevertheless, anyone who has successfully navigated ~20+ years of education kindergarten through grad school should be able to choose standard array, a race, a class, and add single digit numbers together. You don't even have to roll HP since every 1st level character starts with the max. And if that's just too damn hard, D&D Beyond will do it all for you point and click. There's plenty to dislike about 5e and I can see deciding that the time spent creating a custom character isn't worth the effort. But complaining that character creation is overly complex is absurd. Sounds more like a player who can't be bothered than one who is overwhelmed.
Greetings!
Yeah, Festus. That's right. Character creation in 5E *can* be super easy and fast--However, if you use the Xanathar and Tasha's, as I recall, Character creation can easily take frigging *hours and hours*--though, admittedly, such a character will be gar more detailed and provided with depth--the character will also, incidentally, gain character pages extending to 3, 4, 5, or 6 pages, maybe more. Also potentially having a multi-page "Backstory" depending on how you go about writing all the stuff up.
The process isn't complicated, but it is time consuming, partially interesting and partially a pain in the ass--but also a huge hammer to the head for getting the character killed in the first hour of adventuring.
I love detail, and depth, I really do--but spending 5, 6 hours or more rolling up many tables, developing all kinds of details, then coordinating and writing up some kind of cohesive background that makes all of those rolls and details integrated and making sense--just to have the character get swallowed by a giant alligator or something in the first hour or so of the adventure...yeah, that's painful, and frustrating.
Ultimately, I have grown a strong passion for quick and dirty backgrounds, like 1 paragraph. 6 to 9 sentences, that's it.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Festus on April 13, 2023, 09:50:59 PMSounds more like a player who can't be bothered than one who is overwhelmed.
That's closer to the truth, IMO. My wife's very intelligent, but her eyes glaze at character creation, and I always have to painstakingly walk her through every detail. Whereas I, no more intelligent than she is, love learning mechanics, and perfectly sculpting my characters.
There are different kinds of smart I guess, probably a lot of it is driven by predilections.
I will say this, I've made characters for a llloootttttt of systems and settings, and 5E is painful. For some reason I find it to be like reading a Stereo manual, and it makes me go snow-blind. Which is weird, because I've definitely made characters in clunkier and more complex systems.
I think some of it may be it's so god damn boring, and needlessly convoluted. YMMV though.
Some character creation is imagination, some is grokking the system, and some is accounting. Most people into RPGs love the first, have a love/hate relationship with the second, and hate the third. Moreover, your tolerances change with the system, experience, and general crankiness of age. :D
I think a couple of you may be talking past each other.
The problem with 5E isn't creating the character, it's optimizing it. I don't mean minmaxing, but just setting up a build that isn't going to limit you or force your party to carry you through encounters. This is a common issue as an RPG's complexity increases, but it's particularly egregious in 5E which was supposed to dial the complexity back a notch or two.
5e is amazing in that its got tons of options few of which matter, but munchkins can significantly get ahead anyway.
5e is my most unfavored edition.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 13, 2023, 10:39:33 PM
I will say this, I've made characters for a llloootttttt of systems and settings, and 5E is painful. For some reason I find it to be like reading a Stereo manual, and it makes me go snow-blind. Which is weird, because I've definitely made characters in clunkier and more complex systems.
I think some of it may be it's so god damn boring, and needlessly convoluted. YMMV though.
It is a pain in the ass. I had to help three rambunctious 10-year-olds make characters and that took forever. And that was with me trying to simplify and curtail options. When making a character for myself it takes just as long, and I feel like I'm constantly having to flip between different sections of multiple books more than with other games.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 12:39:55 PM
It all makes sense when you realize wokists worship at the feet of some groups, but actively loathe and attack Christians. Christianity, White Supremacy, Patriarchy, it's a connected web of evil to them.
Which is weird because the woke are the ones pushing some of the most racist ideas and pushing segregation and racial hatred. They push that the handicapped should stay handicapped and all the other vileness.
If they were really serious about it, they would be getting rid of Half-Dragons (Dragonborn), Half-Giants (Goliaths), and Half-Devils (Tieflings) along with the rest.
What they actually are doing is virtue signaling.
I think they are just trying to do away with the concept so the game won't end up the numerous racial fractions.
Example:
character 1 is a human
character 2 is a kobold
character 3 is 22% human, 3% elf, 14% dragonborn, 17% aarakocra, 22% dwarf, 18% halfing, and 4% storm giant.
While WoTC would have been fine with that, that all wouldn't fit on the character sheet, and programming the VTT software for it is just too hard. So instead the whole thing is racist and canceled.
Question:
Has anyone seen anyone on social media, in person, etc cheering this change?
I just find it odd and I don't see people talking about it.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 17, 2023, 11:29:44 AM
Has anyone seen anyone on social media, in person, etc cheering this change?
Of course. While most of the responses on reddit are solid, there's definitely some people who agree in some way even there:
https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/12cjl7c/eli5_why_is_wotc_removing_the_halfelf_and_halforc/
Reddit generally will go along with whatever social justice fad is happening- many favored a "morality clause" to try to strip rights from people they disagreed with, they just didn't like WotC trying to shove that into the OGL. But even they don't buy being called racist for wanting half-elves and half-orcs in their books.
The thing is, they will. As the editions come closer, the screws will be turned on the subreddits, and using the term "race" will get you shadowbanned or your post removed, much as they have bots to search out and silently deleted posts calling things "retarded". This will be done slowly so as to force compliance or kick people out in small batches so they don't actually form a community anywhere else, and then soon enough it will be racist to call an elf a race, or to use the term "half-elf" because it's now "problematic". It's just a matter of time.
Quote from: Venka on April 17, 2023, 12:06:18 PM
Of course. While most of the responses on reddit are solid, there's definitely some people who agree in some way even there:
https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/12cjl7c/eli5_why_is_wotc_removing_the_halfelf_and_halforc/
Reddit generally will go along with whatever social justice fad is happening- many favored a "morality clause" to try to strip rights from people they disagreed with, they just didn't like WotC trying to shove that into the OGL. But even they don't buy being called racist for wanting half-elves and half-orcs in their books.
The thing is, they will. As the editions come closer, the screws will be turned on the subreddits, and using the term "race" will get you shadowbanned or your post removed, much as they have bots to search out and silently deleted posts calling things "retarded". This will be done slowly so as to force compliance or kick people out in small batches so they don't actually form a community anywhere else, and then soon enough it will be racist to call an elf a race, or to use the term "half-elf" because it's now "problematic". It's just a matter of time.
Huh, interesting.
I don't pay any attention to Reddit and really how many of the people on there are actual gamers and how many are just SJWs acting as gamers to push their agenda?
Quote from: overstory on April 16, 2023, 02:46:58 PM
I think they are just trying to do away with the concept so the game won't end up the numerous racial fractions.
Example:
character 1 is a human
character 2 is a kobold
character 3 is 22% human, 3% elf, 14% dragonborn, 17% aarakocra, 22% dwarf, 18% halfing, and 4% storm giant.
While WoTC would have been fine with that, that all wouldn't fit on the character sheet, and programming the VTT software for it is just too hard. So instead the whole thing is racist and canceled.
Which games were these where you had that kind of idiocy?
This is stupid, and WotC should feel bad about it.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 17, 2023, 12:12:05 PM
Quote from: Venka on April 17, 2023, 12:06:18 PM
Of course. While most of the responses on reddit are solid, there's definitely some people who agree in some way even there:
https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/12cjl7c/eli5_why_is_wotc_removing_the_halfelf_and_halforc/
Reddit generally will go along with whatever social justice fad is happening- many favored a "morality clause" to try to strip rights from people they disagreed with, they just didn't like WotC trying to shove that into the OGL. But even they don't buy being called racist for wanting half-elves and half-orcs in their books.
The thing is, they will. As the editions come closer, the screws will be turned on the subreddits, and using the term "race" will get you shadowbanned or your post removed,
I don't pay any attention to Reddit and really how many of the people on there are actual gamers and how many are just SJWs acting as gamers to push their agenda?
WotC has already walked back Crawford's statement, as I noted in
reply #139 (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dd-to-eliminate-half-anything/msg1250170/#msg1250170). As shown by the OGL fiasco, players will push back over certain things. WotC has some influence, but it only goes so far.
Quote from: jhkim on April 17, 2023, 03:12:46 PM
WotC has already walked back Crawford's statement, as I noted in reply #139 (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dd-to-eliminate-half-anything/msg1250170/#msg1250170).
I dispute this and do not believe it is a walk-back. It's a clarification. Crawford stated that
"The 'half' construction is inherently racist, but then promised that "they'll still be" in the 2014 PHB and on their build-a-bitch website, dndbeyond.
The reason I dispute that it is a "walk-back" is that what Crawford said was the bit about it being
inherently racist. Unless they say explicitly that it is not (and by extension, the players that use it are not racist for using it), or unless they explicitly include it via the name "half-orc" and "half-elf" (and no other thing, such as "of mixed ancestry" or other), then they haven't walked back a damned thing.
By contrast, it was always obvious that characters of different antecedents would be allowed, as you yourself quoted the playtest document. They are likely trying to do what Pathfinder did- instead of having a race called "half-elf", have an "ancestry" ("species" here I guess) named "elf" and one named "human", and have some "heritage" (or whatever) that lets you grab features of both. Which, as you've already pointed out, exists in the playtest already.
But there's not been a walk-back. This is just one more case where one of their stooges walks out, says some far-left hellscape comment, and is never walked back or apologized for. Whether it's "White men... can't leave this hobby fast enough" (even with the meaning of "...shouldn't be able to make a living making these products" versus the more expansive idea of "whites not even being desired as consumer-only players and DMs") or whether it's calling everyone a racist for ever using the race pick of half-elf or half-orc, every single time they get to go out, ring their fucking bell, and then never have to apologize or recant in any way. Victory after victory, unceasing, unrepentant, gloating, and hateful.
Quote from: jhkim on April 17, 2023, 03:12:46 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 17, 2023, 12:12:05 PM
Quote from: Venka on April 17, 2023, 12:06:18 PM
Of course. While most of the responses on reddit are solid, there's definitely some people who agree in some way even there:
https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/12cjl7c/eli5_why_is_wotc_removing_the_halfelf_and_halforc/
Reddit generally will go along with whatever social justice fad is happening- many favored a "morality clause" to try to strip rights from people they disagreed with, they just didn't like WotC trying to shove that into the OGL. But even they don't buy being called racist for wanting half-elves and half-orcs in their books.
The thing is, they will. As the editions come closer, the screws will be turned on the subreddits, and using the term "race" will get you shadowbanned or your post removed,
I don't pay any attention to Reddit and really how many of the people on there are actual gamers and how many are just SJWs acting as gamers to push their agenda?
WotC has already walked back Crawford's statement, as I noted in reply #139 (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dd-to-eliminate-half-anything/msg1250170/#msg1250170). As shown by the OGL fiasco, players will push back over certain things. WotC has some influence, but it only goes so far.
Well its great that they walked back his statement. Now I wish they would do something to stop the casual racism that is being spewed by their employees.
Probably shouldn't hold my breath for that.
Quote from: Venka on April 17, 2023, 06:14:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 17, 2023, 03:12:46 PM
WotC has already walked back Crawford's statement, as I noted in reply #139 (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dd-to-eliminate-half-anything/msg1250170/#msg1250170).
I dispute this and do not believe it is a walk-back. It's a clarification. Crawford stated that "The 'half' construction is inherently racist, but then promised that "they'll still be" in the 2014 PHB and on their build-a-bitch website, dndbeyond.
The reason I dispute that it is a "walk-back" is that what Crawford said was the bit about it being inherently racist.
OK, fair enough. It is not explicitly a walk-back, but it implies a shift away from that. If they're confirming support for half-races, that leans against products portraying them as inherently racist.
Quote from: Venka on April 17, 2023, 06:14:36 PM
But there's not been a walk-back. This is just one more case where one of their stooges walks out, says some far-left hellscape comment, and is never walked back or apologized for.
True enough -- but getting an apology from anyone on the Internet is like pulling teeth. I don't think WotC even apologized per se for the OGL fiasco, even after they released on CC-BY, just gave excuses. I wouldn't expect an apology from any large corporation or even small ones like Palladium or Pinnacle.
Greetings!
"Walked Back". *Laughing* Yeah, WOTC hasn't "Walked Back" a damned thing. They might be able to change everything around if they FIRED JEREMY CRAWFORD, KYLE BINKS, and the entire executive RPG and game designer/writer staff. Kyle Binks, all the executives under him, Jeremy Crawford, Chris Perkins, everyone involved with Strixhaven, the Radiant Citadel, Ravenfuck, all of these people.
FIRE THEM ALL.
That would be the first step to house-cleaning, to eliminate the degenerate, racist, woke scum.
At least then, WOTC could potentially hire some normal, non-racist, non-fucking Woke game designers and writers--and non-racist, Woke executives as well--to actually run and lead the D&D brand. It wouldn't hurt either to seek out people that actually have writing and design skills. Hell, even people that actually play D&D and love D&D, that would be an improvement.
And fire every single fucking "Cultural Consultant" and "Sensitivity Reader". They all must be fucking fired *snap*.
And for all the wormy Neville Chamberlains--ask yourself, take everything WOTC has said--executives, designers, employees on Twitter--if they had said all of what they said--sub out WHITE--and place in Back, or Asian, or Latino, or the fucking rainbow hippos, and see what the kind of reaction there would be.
I guarantee you none of these people would still have a fucking job at WOTC.
I know none of that will ever happen though.
So, let them all bathe in napalm.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on April 17, 2023, 07:06:17 PM
OK, fair enough. It is not explicitly a walk-back, but it implies a shift away from that. If they're confirming support for half-races, that leans against products portraying them as inherently racist.
Well, what he said was racist was "the construction", meaning, the games rules shouldn't call someone a "half-elf". You can make the case that, in the fantasy world, such a phrase actually
is racist- it portrays them as being based on their human side primarily, meaning that such a phrase is likely what humans would call someone, and it generally implies that this is their dominant and most defining feature. In the
context of the game world, it's plausible to say it is racist. Of course, as a game rule, nothing is racist about it- but generally there's been quite a bunch of make-noise about this type of issue in the past few years, where a game rule or in-world thing says something that provides an excuse for the singing of the Performative Wokesong. They aren't confused about what is and is not in the game world- they explicitly claim that such a thing is a distinction without a difference, or that simply having such a construct as part of the rules is itself a political statement that they are opposed to and must deconstruct.
I'm sure you'll still be able to play a half-elf, but at this point it sounds like they'll use a different "construction" for it- for instance, you might pick "human" to determine some features and "elf" to determine others, and there may be a level 1 feat that gives you some mix of that as well, only available to those of some elven blood, etc. Other games have done this, in some cases for the exact same reasons, and in some cases for completely different reasons.
QuoteTrue enough -- but getting an apology from anyone on the Internet is like pulling teeth. I don't think WotC even apologized per se for the OGL fiasco, even after they released on CC-BY, just gave excuses.
also:
QuoteI wouldn't expect an apology from any large corporation or even small ones like Palladium or Pinnacle.
Oh no, it's
super easy to get an apology. That's why it's so galling that they don't.
Here's WotC apologizing for porting the Hadozee:
https://www.pcgamer.com/wizards-of-the-coast-apologizes-for-and-removes-racist-elements-of-spelljammer/
We wanted to acknowledge and own the inclusion of offensive material within our recent Spelljammer: Adventures in Space content. We failed you, our players and our fans, and we are truly sorry.See? That's an apology. They are sorry that their monkeys offended someone, because naturally, when you see monkeys, you think black people, and when you see slaves, you think black people. Naturally, right? So they are sooooo sorrrrry. And of course, leftists journalists put this well crafted apology on a stick and paraded it around. Lets be clear: the closest thing we've ever had to that is this premium Zak S content thread, where apology.jpg is still being batted around. And that's not even political.
But don't think that WotC just apologizes for monkeymen! No, they
love to apologize. Here's Polygon going bonkers during the summer of terror, when Wizards banned
Crusade and
Invoke Prejudice, even pretending that
Invoke Prejudice was no longer hilariously and forever card #1488:
https://www.polygon.com/2020/6/10/21287154/racist-magic-the-gathering-cards-banned-removed-from-database-wizards-apology
Here's their release at the time:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/depictions-racism-magic-2020-06-10
But to that point, it should never have been published nor placed in the Gatherer. And for that we are sorry. Again, they can't wait to apologize when it is the interest of their politics, but they will never do so if it would moralize their enemy (that's anyone opposed to their censorship, and possibly all men, and possibly whites, and rest assured, if you disagree with them politically, you'll be "culturally white" which, while it won't get you a cool title in the klan, will at least qualify you for a spot against their wall!).
Further, I will assume that they will apologize whenever they remove the "half-orc" name, and they'll definitely apologize when the $CURRENT_THING pointer is aimed at something about sex or sexuality or whatever is being deconstructed next. I wouldn't bet on them doing fur-inclusivity, I'm not the next Rush Limbaugh, but if they did it,
I wouldn't be shocked. Basically, when the next political push happens, and everyone stamps their feet to push towards a new normal that they can then relax from (this is, shockingly, the "relax" period, sorry to say), there's a decent chance that they'll find something to apologize about. Maybe they'll apologize to dark wizards for hinting that evil exists, or to black people some more, for sometimes using terms like "dark wizard" in their flavor text or in earlier versions, which they will then need to claw back.
At this point, I'm kinda having a good time, so instead of searching for stuff I actually remembered, I just went for shit like "Wizards of the coast apologizes". That stuff is there too!
https://bleedingcool.com/games/wizards-issues-apology-re-forsaken-novel-magic-the-gathering/
Here they are sorry that one writer decided a character was bisexual and another decided she was not. I couldn't find the actual apology, but the internet seems to claim it exists, even if the webpage 404ed.
There's also some Play-Doh extruder from 2014 that is really super obviously a penis, that they apologized for. That one wasn't to push a political angle, but it was also 2014, and also totally a dong.
(https://wtax-am.sagacom.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/110/files/2014/12/playdoh-620x400.jpg)
I also want to point out that while they don't explicitly apologize here, they address their latest made up issue and "promise to do better":
https://dnd.wizards.com/news/diversity-and-dnd
(this is when they got rid of negative modifiers to Int for orcs, etc, and give their reasons why- which are all real world politics, etc.)
Also Wizards did sorta apologize for the OGL. They said they were sorry for the "pain they have caused the community", which by itself would be mealy-mouthed, but they also took their SRD and put it under creative commons. You could argue that it's a shifty apology and not phrased as genuinely as their others, but they also backed it up with something that had large cost for them and pure benefit to fans- very much unlike their other apologies, which were all destroying something that some fans liked, at not real cost to themselves-
we paid the price for all that stuff, and the entire beneficiary was the leftists, be they fans, customers, or just kotaku readers, who could sleep better at night knowing that
something had been taken from us and that, as best their corporate allies could,
their enemies were denied some small measure of comfort.
I'm torn on this. On the one hand, I've never liked half races in D&D or even other fantasy RPGs. My understanding is that they're not just different races of humanity, they're different species, thus they should not be able to produce offspring. Okay, maybe donkeylike infertile offspring if they're really close genetically, but my impression is that they're not. They also blur the distinctiveness of the races, which makes getting a clear idea of what each one is like more difficult. AFIAC half-races don't add anything beneficial to the game.
On the other hand, by calling half-races "racist" WotC is taking the stupid to a whole new level, which I would not have believed possible had I not seen it.
I wish they'd just said "We're taking these out because it's a dumb idea" and been done with it.
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 12:20:12 AM
I'm torn on this. On the one hand, I've never liked half races in D&D or even other fantasy RPGs. My understanding is that they're not just different races of humanity, they're different species, thus they should not be able to produce offspring. Okay, maybe donkeylike infertile offspring if they're really close genetically, but my impression is that they're not. They also blur the distinctiveness of the races, which makes getting a clear idea of what each one is like more difficult. AFIAC half-races don't add anything beneficial to the game.
The thing that all this talk about genetic compatibility seems to be missing is...
(https://media.tenor.com/ewG5N8jfWAIAAAAM/magic-henning.gif)
And also humans cross breeding with magical creatures like fey (such as Elves), demons and angels is already established in real life folklore. So including them in D&D isn't such a far fetched concept, cuz this ain't sci-fi.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 18, 2023, 12:44:46 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 12:20:12 AM
I'm torn on this. On the one hand, I've never liked half races in D&D or even other fantasy RPGs. My understanding is that they're not just different races of humanity, they're different species, thus they should not be able to produce offspring. Okay, maybe donkeylike infertile offspring if they're really close genetically, but my impression is that they're not. They also blur the distinctiveness of the races, which makes getting a clear idea of what each one is like more difficult. AFIAC half-races don't add anything beneficial to the game.
The thing that all this talk about genetic compatibility seems to be missing is...
(https://media.tenor.com/ewG5N8jfWAIAAAAM/magic-henning.gif)
And also humans cross breeding with magical creatures like fey (such as Elves), demons and angels is already established in real life folklore. So including them in D&D isn't such a far fetched concept, cuz this ain't sci-fi.
All of the Sword & Planet genre, Star Trek and other Sci-Fi IPs want a word with you.
Half-Race is such a strange concept. Partly taken from wargames where there were half-troops of some kinds, and partly from the books that Gygax read, but mostly I would have thought from having races as classes originally. So a "Half-Elf" made no more or less sense than someone being a "Half-Ranger" and really only meant having a few bonuses. A real rules hack enshrined in AD&D.
I don't play D&D at all since BECMI but has the current cultural revolution stuff attacked "classes" yet? After all, the struggle of class against class is a political struggle.
Quote from: FASERIPopedia on April 18, 2023, 01:41:37 AMHalf-Race is such a strange concept.
I don't find it strange at all. The people calling it strange or silly either bring up genetics (which is silly in a universe where the races were made by gods) or just give reasons why
they don't like the concept, and the inference is 'so obviously I'm right.'
Half Human, Half X goes back at least thousands of years in to our very formative mythologies, an is super common in fantasy and sci-fi. I'd say the burden of proof that it's dumb is well and truly on the people that dislike it.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 02:14:22 AM
Quote from: FASERIPopedia on April 18, 2023, 01:41:37 AMHalf-Race is such a strange concept.
I don't find it strange at all. The people calling it strange or silly either bring up genetics (which is silly in a universe where the races were made by gods) or just give reasons why they don't like the concept, and the inference is 'so obviously I'm right.'
Half Human, Half X goes back at least thousands of years in to our very formative mythologies, an is super common in fantasy and sci-fi. I'd say the burden of proof that it's dumb is well and truly on the people that dislike it.
No, in fiction I think half-races are great, and go back all the way to earliest known tales. I meant specifically in the wargamey D&D part of the hobby, especially back when the Gygaxian "under no circumstances allow a character to reflect the power levels of a heroic fantasy story" stuff was the norm. It kept defying logic.
If a "full strength" Elf has ability of whatever say 60 feet range super duper vision, then a median Half-Elf would have? 30 Feet range same vision? But at one point it was "you have to CHOOSE and CHOOSE WISELY what you get from the Elf side" and then it was "averaging dice" and things like that. At that time I went over to RuneQuest etc. and never went back until I did a one-off BECMI retroclone addon book. Multiclassing in BECMI as an Elf-whatever multiclass was one way to do it and it definitely increased the power levels to those of the original stories.
So many problems in D&D are and always have been self created.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 18, 2023, 12:44:46 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 12:20:12 AM
I'm torn on this. On the one hand, I've never liked half races in D&D or even other fantasy RPGs. My understanding is that they're not just different races of humanity, they're different species, thus they should not be able to produce offspring. Okay, maybe donkeylike infertile offspring if they're really close genetically, but my impression is that they're not. They also blur the distinctiveness of the races, which makes getting a clear idea of what each one is like more difficult. AFIAC half-races don't add anything beneficial to the game.
The thing that all this talk about genetic compatibility seems to be missing is...
magic
And also humans cross breeding with magical creatures like fey (such as Elves), demons and angels is already established in real life folklore. So including them in D&D isn't such a far fetched concept, cuz this ain't sci-fi.
Nothing new here of course ... this conversation has been had innumerable times . As in everything it's a matter of personal preference. I don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing. Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean I want to throw baseline nature out the window. I'll happily do so for a good reason, but every departure from real life has a cost in verisimilitude and player connection to the world. In the case of half races, I just don't think it's worth it. They don't add anything to the game that can't be done better by having actually different races.
The bit about folklore is a reasonable point, and I'd included half races if I'm trying to emulate some specific folklore setting, but otherwise still no.
Quote from: jhkim on April 17, 2023, 07:06:17 PM
OK, fair enough. It is not explicitly a walk-back, but it implies a shift away from that. If they're confirming support for half-races, that leans against products portraying them as inherently racist.
The text you've been quoting about mixed ancestry as a 'walk back' predates the statement that "half race" terminology is racist. It's not a walk back, and the two are entirely compatible.
They are eliminating the idea of half races who take aspects from both parents. In the new version you can only have attributes from one parent.
Quote from: S'mon on April 18, 2023, 03:33:22 AM
Quote from: jhkim on April 17, 2023, 07:06:17 PM
OK, fair enough. It is not explicitly a walk-back, but it implies a shift away from that. If they're confirming support for half-races, that leans against products portraying them as inherently racist.
The text you've been quoting about mixed ancestry as a 'walk back' predates the statement that "half race" terminology is racist. It's not a walk back, and the two are entirely compatible.
They are eliminating the idea of half races who take aspects from both parents. In the new version you can only have attributes from one parent.
Greetings!
Great commentary, S'mon! I get what they are doing--and what you're saying--but the whole idea of you being a "Half X" but somehow being restricted to picking only traits from one parent...is prima facie absurd. Normal, natural biological dynamics demonstrate to us that mixed offspring clearly--and typically--gain attributes from both parents.
Example: I love dogs. I've had dogs all of my life, usually Labradors. One dog I had, though, was a Labrador/Border Collie mix. Despite my dog, named Lugh, looking kind of funny--he was shorter than a Labrador, but had a wider snout than Border Collies, clearly showing the Labrador mouth, and many other aspects of blended features. Overall, he looked like a Border Collie, but at a closer inspection, he was short, like a Border Collie, but much broader--having a barrel chest like a Labrador, a Labrador mouth, and so on. Like I said, he was kind of funny looking, but he also blended Border Collie and Labrador intellect--the dog was absolutely off the charts smart. Lugh also instinctively stayed close to me, instantly obeying commands without formal training, and also naturally "herded" my wife to stay close, as well as visiting nieces and nephews. Lugh was hilarious!
We know these dynamics work constantly in the real world--how much even more so, in a fantastic, magical world? Minotaurs, Centaurs, Satyrs, as well as Half Dragons, Half Angels, Half Demons--hello Dragonborn, Tieflings, and Assimar! And, of course, through mythology and literature, Half Orcs and Half Elves, amongst many more.
WOTC's stated editorial or policy change--and their reasoning behind such changes--are just...dumb, you know? Nonsensical, stupid, and laughable in a bad way. It seems so arbitrary and stupid, violating verisimilitude and normal biology and logic as well.
I know. I shouldn't get cranked up about it anyways. Like you, my friend, I'm done with WOTC. I no longer am a customer for them, for anything. WOTC has offended me, insulted me, BEYOND THE PALE. (Is that still an expression in glorious England?) ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AMI don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing.
I agree but D&D has almost always used magic to justify nonsense. D&D was a gritty """Realistic""" universe for a very very very short period of time, and was filled with different goofy monsters for much much longer.
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 18, 2023, 12:44:46 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 12:20:12 AM
I'm torn on this. On the one hand, I've never liked half races in D&D or even other fantasy RPGs. My understanding is that they're not just different races of humanity, they're different species, thus they should not be able to produce offspring. Okay, maybe donkeylike infertile offspring if they're really close genetically, but my impression is that they're not. They also blur the distinctiveness of the races, which makes getting a clear idea of what each one is like more difficult. AFIAC half-races don't add anything beneficial to the game.
The thing that all this talk about genetic compatibility seems to be missing is...
magic
And also humans cross breeding with magical creatures like fey (such as Elves), demons and angels is already established in real life folklore. So including them in D&D isn't such a far fetched concept, cuz this ain't sci-fi.
Nothing new here of course ... this conversation has been had innumerable times . As in everything it's a matter of personal preference. I don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing. Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean I want to throw baseline nature out the window. I'll happily do so for a good reason, but every departure from real life has a cost in verisimilitude and player connection to the world. In the case of half races, I just don't think it's worth it. They don't add anything to the game that can't be done better by having actually different races.
The bit about folklore is a reasonable point, and I'd included half races if I'm trying to emulate some specific folklore setting, but otherwise still no.
I don't mind the argument for "because magic", but if it is going to be used, then stopping at half-elf or half-orc or half-anything seems rather arbitrary. More specifically, having nothing but "half" races seems like a half-baked idea and a half-assed implementation. :D
Still, half-anything is superior to anything WotKKK can come up with. They and their allies are already edging into parallel logic with 1930's eugenics. That's one of the things that happens when progressives take their "thoughts" to their "logical" conclusions, especially ones that are completely ignorant of history. It's only a matter of time before they tie themselves up into knots trying to justify blood-line thinking that contradicts itself.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 18, 2023, 07:53:06 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AMI don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing.
I agree but D&D has almost always used magic to justify nonsense. D&D was a gritty """Realistic""" universe for a very very very short period of time, and was filled with different goofy monsters for much much longer.
On a more basic level which is also no doubt "problematic" or whatever they want to call it, Magic use might be inheritable so it is relevant whether someone has a Magical parent or not. If D&D still has those weird and wonderful "spell-like abilities" likewise you need to know if you inherit them and at what if any strength. But from the sounds of it all that the half-characters will be left with is the same stats as one of their parents and a cosmetic appearance.
Have the D&D galaxy brains thought through the implications for when two different HUMAN races mate? I know most humans are just generic lead figurines with no discernible features but surely in the 2020s they've loaded up all the hidden races, sub-races and special module races with little odd abilities.
It would also be odd to think that a Half-Orc is always now going to look either human or orc and have the stats of a human or orc, leading to humans with orc stats and orcs with human stats. I mean, a good gamemaster can make anything work, but why put people to all this trouble? It's hardly catering to the original proud boast of being able to play whatever you like and only be limited by your imagination etc. etc.
And it is the kiss of death for Dark Sun if they have reanimated that rotting corpse again.
Personally, I liked 4E's take on half-elves.
They got attribute bonuses different from both their parents (elves were Dex and Wis, humans were any one)... Constitution (representing the concept of hybrid vigor) and Charisma (because they had to navigate two cultures as a semi-outsider they quickly learn how to be pleasant and charming).
Similarly, they got bonuses to diplomacy and insight instead of an extra trained skill or to perception and nature.
Unlike the human racial power of heroic effort, or the elven accuracy of an elf, the half-elf got a luck-based racial ability (as their birth was already a small miracle).
Of note on genetic compatibility; in the 4E cosmology, elves are essentially the reflection of humans in the Feywild (thus infused with magic). So basically mundane humans and humans from a saturated with magic from a parallel dimension could interbreed.
The abilities made sense for the implied 4E-setting, but weren't just some of column A and some of column B.
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AMI don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing. Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean I want to throw baseline nature out the window. I'll happily do so for a good reason, but every departure from real life has a cost in verisimilitude and player connection to the world.
Except this is either wrong-headed or disingenuous. "Because Magic" is shorthand for "it's a universe where actual gods exist, and they created the races from out of thin air, and as children of the gods they can interbreed."
Saying they can interbreed because the universe has magical rules doesn't ruin verisimilitude, but trying to bring genetics into it
does. The races being capable of interbreeding isn't a lazy plothole filler, it's a conscious thematic choice by the game's creators. It has a cogent explanation as to why it works, and has in-universe consistency (IE a Human and Elf have a Half-Elven child, not a cat baby, or a Dragon.)
If you don't like it for subjective reasons, just don't include them. But they're completely appropriate to the setting, and are intwined in 50 years of lore.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 11:20:26 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AMI don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing. Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean I want to throw baseline nature out the window. I'll happily do so for a good reason, but every departure from real life has a cost in verisimilitude and player connection to the world.
Except this is either wrong-headed or disingenuous. "Because Magic" is shorthand for "it's a universe where actual gods exist, and they created the races from out of thin air, and as children of the gods they can interbreed."
Saying they can interbreed because the universe has magical rules doesn't ruin verisimilitude, but trying to bring genetics into it does. The races being capable of inbreeding isn't a lazy plothole filler, it's a conscious thematic choice by the game's creators. It has a cogent explanation as to why it works, and has in-universe consistency (IE a Human and Elf have a Half-Elven child, not a cat baby, or a Dragon.)
If you don't like it for subjective reasons, just don't include them. But they're completely appropriate to the setting, and are intwined in 50 years of lore.
Genetics doesn't need to be brought it into it, it's just sometimes convenient to do so. "Nature" will do. People understood that different species didn't produce offspring, except the very close ones that produce sterile offspring, long before we knew anything about genetics.
The "There's no rules about about species interbreeding / there's no genetics because gods made the world" argument cited upthread and obliquely referred to in your post I find completely unpersuasive, as God made the real world and we have genetics here.
And I couldn't care less about 50 years of RPG tradition. I was in the hobby when it was new and disliked halfraces back then. AFAIAC it's just another self-propagating silly D&Dism.
It's not a huge big deal for me either way, but I'd rather have them not in the game as they make the setting less believable for me and can create unnecessary issues on the game side of things.
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 11:49:05 AMThe "There's no rules about about species interbreeding / there's no genetics" argument cited upthread and obliquely referred to in your post I find completely unpersuasive, as God made the real world and we have genetics here.
(http://tf2chan.net/offtopic/src/136229297714.gif)
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 11:20:26 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AMI don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing. Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean I want to throw baseline nature out the window. I'll happily do so for a good reason, but every departure from real life has a cost in verisimilitude and player connection to the world.
Except this is either wrong-headed or disingenuous. "Because Magic" is shorthand for "it's a universe where actual gods exist, and they created the races from out of thin air, and as children of the gods they can interbreed."
Saying they can interbreed because the universe has magical rules doesn't ruin verisimilitude, but trying to bring genetics into it does. The races being capable of interbreeding isn't a lazy plothole filler, it's a conscious thematic choice by the game's creators. It has a cogent explanation as to why it works, and has in-universe consistency (IE a Human and Elf have a Half-Elven child, not a cat baby, or a Dragon.)
If you don't like it for subjective reasons, just don't include them. But they're completely appropriate to the setting, and are intwined in 50 years of lore.
Orcs, being inherently Evil weren't created by no gods, but by some sort of demon... So how come they can also interbreed with humans? Because this obviously contradicts your carefully laid argument.
That's the reason -in the worlds where I allow half-races- I don't explain anything beyond "because magic". No, it doesn't open the door to silly shit, it's MY table/world I created/run it, I decide what goes and what doesn't... Anyone that doesn't like it is shown the door.
In my Mayan inspired fantasy world the different races CAN'T interbreed, because magic, the gods created them from different stuff, so the magic doesn't allow it. Don't like it? find another table.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:20:14 PMIn my Mayan inspired fantasy world the different races CAN'T interbreed, because magic, the gods created them from different stuff, so the magic doesn't allow it. Don't like it? find another table.
I see no reason why I can't play my half-Oil, half-Water person.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:20:14 PMDon't like it? find another table.
Um...Im kinda losing focus of this entire debate. Is this:
"Well Im glad WOTC is banning the term Half-X, because even if I disagree with the reasoning, I no longer want this to exist as a toolbox option for any other game ever because I dislike it in my games"
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 12:27:49 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:20:14 PMIn my Mayan inspired fantasy world the different races CAN'T interbreed, because magic, the gods created them from different stuff, so the magic doesn't allow it. Don't like it? find another table.
I see no reason why I can't play my half-Oil, half-Water person.
How quickly you forget:
Maize people (Mayan)
Clay people
Monkey people
Either Tree or Jaguar people (haven't decided yet).
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 18, 2023, 12:47:20 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:20:14 PMDon't like it? find another table.
Um...Im kinda losing focus of this entire debate. Is this:
"Well Im glad WOTC is banning the term Half-X, because even if I disagree with the reasoning, I no longer want this to exist as a toolbox option for any other game ever because I dislike it in my games"
Are you asking or asserting?
No, that's not MY argument (can't speak for everybody else tho), in some worlds I allow half-races, in other's I don't, I'm grateful the templates exist because it saves me the trouble of house-ruling it for every single instance, not that I haven't created my own half-races on occasion, but it's nice not to have to do all the work yourself.
GWotKKK can do whatever they want with their IP, I'll just point at how utterly stupid they are for doing so.
In your world/table you allow for halfling/giant hybrids? good for you, no, I don't want to talk about the logistics of it. You don't ever allow for half-races? Good for you, hope you and your players are having fun.
It's TWO different arguments:
Removing/Changing how they work half-races because "it's inherently racist" is stupid.
Half-races make no sense (or they totally do) because genetics, nature, magic, what have you.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:49:19 PMMaize people (Mayan)
So if I ate you with salsa, not only would you be delicious, I'd technically be a vegetarian.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 01:31:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:49:19 PMMaize people (Mayan)
So if I ate you with salsa, not only would you be delicious, I'd technically be a vegetarian.
No, you'd be an Aztec 8)
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 12:06:12 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 11:49:05 AMThe "There's no rules about about species interbreeding / there's no genetics" argument cited upthread and obliquely referred to in your post I find completely unpersuasive, as God made the real world and we have genetics here.
(http://tf2chan.net/offtopic/src/136229297714.gif)
Are you here to discuss RPGs, or just to be an ass? If it's the latter, I'll just put you on my ignore list and be done with it.
Quote from: SHARK on April 18, 2023, 04:36:29 AM
Great commentary, S'mon! I get what they are doing--and what you're saying--but the whole idea of you being a "Half X" but somehow being restricted to picking only traits from one parent...is prima facie absurd. Normal, natural biological dynamics demonstrate to us that mixed offspring clearly--and typically--gain attributes from both parents.
I think you could defend any of these ideas:
1- Have a half- template for each half breed you decide both exists and is playable as a PC. This is what has always been done, and why every player's handbook in the AD&D line has had a half-elf, and many have had a half-orc.
2- Have a few half- templates. For instance, you could have two kinds of half-elves, one for those that are more human, and one for those that are more elven. AD&D 1e made some claims in this direction- for instance, as orcs are fecund, most half orcs (I think the book said 90%) are basically indistinguishable from orcs, with the players being in the superior 10% that could function around humans. You could also claim that either the mother or the father is simply dominant in some aspects, much as a liger and a tigon differ:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigon
3- Try to actually divide what it means to be a given race into two or four equally powerful buckets, and then have everyone just choose that number of options. This would work much better for games that use larger base numbers than D&D. For instance, if you decided that each quarter of human gives you one skill point and one hit point and one quarter a feat, and every quarter of elf gives you 10 feet of dark vision and one hit point and one weapon proficiency, you could end up with something that would be serviceable, if min-maxxy and silly. I think this would work badly in D&D type games, but it would probably work fine in a game with more detailed and annoying character generation.
4- Decide on a dominant race, and then portray all the half- pieces as variations thereof, with each having some choices like that. This is what Pathfinder does.
I think (1) is the best option. It allows for fine grained control, makes the most sense, allows for each DM to simply checkbox allow/ban things that work in their game world without impinging on other systems, is tried and true, and can be balanced easily, and is arguably realistic enough. But a lot of other things do work.
Quote from: SHARK on April 18, 2023, 04:36:29 AM
I get what they are doing--and what you're saying--but the whole idea of you being a "Half X" but somehow being restricted to picking only traits from one parent...is prima facie absurd. Normal, natural biological dynamics demonstrate to us that mixed offspring clearly--and typically--gain attributes from both parents.
A problem with this is that if there are natural biological dynamics, then one would expect the races of the fantasy world to be a spectrum of differences with no sharp lines, just like human genetic traits in the real world. There should be all sorts of mixed race characters, blending different traits.
If most characters (PC and NPC) are only from a small set of pure races, with only a few exceptional half-race characters, then it's very unlike the real world.
Quote from: Venka on April 18, 2023, 02:38:31 PM
I think you could defend any of these ideas:
1- Have a half- template for each half breed you decide both exists and is playable as a PC. This is what has always been done, and why every player's handbook in the AD&D line has had a half-elf, and many have had a half-orc.
Quote from: Venka on April 18, 2023, 02:38:31 PM
I think (1) is the best option. It allows for fine grained control, makes the most sense, allows for each DM to simply checkbox allow/ban things that work in their game world without impinging on other systems, is tried and true, and can be balanced easily, and is arguably realistic enough. But a lot of other things do work.
First of all, I think you're overstating the half-races. OD&D, BECMI and other variations were important during the TSR era, and they never had half-races. Half-orc wasn't present in AD&D 2e (TSR) or D&D 4e (WotC).
The problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM
The problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.
Naw. I have half-dwarves in some campaigns, but never felt the need to detail them as a PC option.
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM
First of all, I think you're overstating the half-races. OD&D, BECMI and other variations were important during the TSR era, and they never had half-races.
True, but I did specify the AD&D branch for this.
QuoteHalf-orc wasn't present in AD&D 2e (TSR)
It actually was, as there was a little conversion booklet that I can no longer find, that specified how to bring 1e stuff into 2e- this was released around the time 2e came out, and let you play a half orc in the upcoming 2e. However, if you didn't like those rules, then you'd have to wait four years or so for the
Complete Book of Humanoids to add in Half-Orc, Half-Ogre, a whole bunch of other misfits, including I think
Mongrelmen!
Quoteor D&D 4e (WotC)
Now this one I was just wrong on, I thought half orcs were there from the start of 4ed and they absolutely were not, my bad. They were in the PHB2, eight months later, but that definitely meant that you couldn't play a half-orc at 4ed launch.
QuoteThe problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.
This isn't actually an issue though, because (a) you can sell more splatbullshit this way, (b) if done correctly your game masters can homebrew whatever is needed, (c) only a vanishingly few GMs want more than the basic mixes anyway. Not knowing what racial powers a gnome/dwarf is clearly not a big deal because I don't see people homebrewing it. Is there any reason that every possible combination must be hammered out, or should exist? It's easy to make a case for a half-elf, half-orc, or half-ogre. But beyond that, how often do you need it in your games?
And definitely, this should not be used as an argument against the idea in general. The lack of a golbin/elf template rule doesn't mean anything as regards a half-elf.
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM
The problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.
LOL WUT!?
Only IF you're planing on having ALL the races as PC options, speaking as a developer (unpublished yet but still) that would be madness.
What you (and Venka) fail to consider is the optimal solution:
Have #1 for a handful of options, then have #2 for the GM to create whatever special snowflake he wants to.
So, I as the designer don't have to get institutionalized for trying to do what you suggest is the ONLY alternative AND the GM/Players get all the variety they might wish, including any future races added to the game.
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM
First of all, I think you're overstating the half-races. OD&D, BECMI and other variations were important during the TSR era, and they never had half-races. Half-orc wasn't present in AD&D 2e (TSR) or D&D 4e (WotC).
Point of order; Half-Orcs (and Gnomes) were added within eight months of 4E's release in the same book (PHB2) with the barbarian, bard, druid and sorcerer; providing every core 3e option to players (monk was available via the website before the PHB2 even came out, though it wouldn't be in a physical book until PHB3).
4E gets enough of a bad rap as it is... no sense piling lies on top.
Related to the topic though is that, like half-elves in 4E, 4E half-orcs also had their own unique hybrid traits (including the hybrid vigor Con bonus) that didn't quite match up with either parent.
That's something that is lost with either WotC's pick one in whole or a "pick some of column A and some of column B"... the unique interactions that can occur in hybrid species (ex. Ligers are typically larger than either the lions or tigers they are hybrids of).
Greetings!
Yeah, in my Thandor world, I have a selection of prominent "Half X" races. I don't bother with statistical profiles *for every possible race-mixed combination possible*. It isn't necessary. The answer can simply be "NO. Those race mixed characters are not available to Player Characters." Most players are content to select from what the DM tells them is available, period. Conceptually, however, I do have a statistic profile for a kind of generic "Human and X" mixture, which is modest, but sufficient for whatever other half breeds I come up with, or even a legitimate NPC or Player Character that is somehow 50% Human, 25% Elf, and 25% Ogre. Or some unusual race combination, that regardless of the outlandish or crazy origins, may nonetheless provide some kind of unusual attributes or traits. So, I can do it. The weirder race combinations are, of course, more generic and simplified, so they are not as particularly "good" or extensive as the more mainstream "Half X" races in Thandor. That choice is by design, too. I have a built-in discouragement for players wanting to try and concoct some ridiculous race mixed character in hopes of gaming some crazy advantage. NO. This is what you get, if you don't want the standard selections.
That is also because yeah, actually trying to come up with all the different "Half X" races would be extremely difficult, and laborious. I think I also mentioned earlier in this thread or maybe another thread, that I did my own research into this very type of process--and at least going by standardized 5E rules and frameworks, there really are only room--mechanically speaking--for somewhere between 8 and 10 or 12 "Half X" races, before reaching a negative return dynamic where such a race is actually burdened with more negatives than positives--or zeroes out, and thus mechanically becomes more or less identical to a "Half X" race profile that already exists. Creating more "Half X" races beyond the optimum number ratio mechanically thus becomes redundant and cookie-cutterish, which then means you have multiple "Half " races that share the same mechanical profiles, but differ only in fluff text. That is ultimately what happens to "Half X" races when you exceed the optimum number ratio of about 8 to 12.
So, there is no need to really worry about creating hordes of different "Half X" races with distinct profiles.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 02:32:37 PMAre you here to discuss RPGs, or just to be an ass? If it's the latter, I'll just put you on my ignore list and be done with it.
In the real universe, the one we live in, not only do we not have a jot of evidence for a divine source for the creation of life (not rubbishing your personal belief here, but you're the one dropping it on me as an incontestable gotcha,) but life in the real universe has an evidential chain of evolution going back billions of years to the most simple microbes, whereas in D&D the gods just made Humans, boom, from nothing.
Your entire argument is subjective, and relies on axiomatic statements.
Quote from: Venka on April 18, 2023, 04:17:47 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM
The problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.
This isn't actually an issue though, because (a) you can sell more splatbullshit this way, (b) if done correctly your game masters can homebrew whatever is needed, (c) only a vanishingly few GMs want more than the basic mixes anyway. Not knowing what racial powers a gnome/dwarf is clearly not a big deal because I don't see people homebrewing it. Is there any reason that every possible combination must be hammered out, or should exist? It's easy to make a case for a half-elf, half-orc, or half-ogre. But beyond that, how often do you need it in your games?
To be clear - there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elf and half-orc were put into AD&D1 out of shallow copying of Tolkien. There isn't any internal logic to D&D that makes those half-races special, nor is there any special game balance reason for those two compared to any other half-races.
I think shallow copying of Tolkien is a problem for a lot of fantasy gaming, D&D included. It's more interesting to drop those assumptions and make one's D&D world its own thing.
By coincidence, a few weeks before the WotC announcement, I was trying to justify half-races in my own D&D world. I had to jump through some hoops to rework my cosmology to make those half-races special, as there wasn't anything in the standard D&D background/cosmology to justify it. The only real reason for my doing so was because I made compatibility with the core game a priority in my world design.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 05:58:23 PM
whereas in D&D the gods just made Humans, boom, from nothing.
Surely this depends on the campaign setting. Some are ambiguous (I'd put Greyhawk there), some clearly do have divine creators eg the 4e D&D world, some have natural evolution eg Wilderlands, and probably Mystara.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 18, 2023, 04:25:12 PMLigers are typically larger than either the lions or tigers they are hybrids of
Bred for its skills in magic.
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 18, 2023, 12:44:46 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 12:20:12 AM
I'm torn on this. On the one hand, I've never liked half races in D&D or even other fantasy RPGs. My understanding is that they're not just different races of humanity, they're different species, thus they should not be able to produce offspring. Okay, maybe donkeylike infertile offspring if they're really close genetically, but my impression is that they're not. They also blur the distinctiveness of the races, which makes getting a clear idea of what each one is like more difficult. AFIAC half-races don't add anything beneficial to the game.
The thing that all this talk about genetic compatibility seems to be missing is...
magic
And also humans cross breeding with magical creatures like fey (such as Elves), demons and angels is already established in real life folklore. So including them in D&D isn't such a far fetched concept, cuz this ain't sci-fi.
Nothing new here of course ... this conversation has been had innumerable times . As in everything it's a matter of personal preference. I don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing. Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean I want to throw baseline nature out the window. I'll happily do so for a good reason, but every departure from real life has a cost in verisimilitude and player connection to the world. In the case of half races, I just don't think it's worth it. They don't add anything to the game that can't be done better by having actually different races.
The bit about folklore is a reasonable point, and I'd included half races if I'm trying to emulate some specific folklore setting, but otherwise still no.
Normally I'd say yes, but in this case using magic to create or alter things (including living ones) is an established trope in fiction and mythology going back thousands of years, as well as a plausible use of magic. So saying that half-races can exist in a magic setting "because magic" actually works in this case. Granted, stuff should always fit the setting rather forced into it, "because magic".
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 06:04:01 PM
To be clear - there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elf and half-orc were put into AD&D1 out of shallow copying of Tolkien. There isn't any internal logic to D&D that makes those half-races special, nor is there any special game balance reason for those two compared to any other half-races.
Agree with you that there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elves were 100% in OD&D.
Half-Elves: Half-elves are half elven and half human, and as such they gain some abilities from each heritage. Half-elves are able to progress simultaneously in both the fighter and magic-user classes and may use both weaponry and spells and otherwise act as elves do.And while your opinions that it was a shallow copying of Tolkien are your own and legit discussion points, contrary to what you are saying there were game balance decisions in the form of level limits and even how experience was acquired.
Off-topic but I also enjoy that in a text released in 1975, heritage was used interchangeably with the term race :)
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 06:04:01 PM
Quote from: Venka on April 18, 2023, 04:17:47 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 03:50:42 PM
The problem with approach #1 is that it requires a separate entry for every half-race, when the possible combinations quickly get extreme given the many fictional races in the game.
This isn't actually an issue though, because (a) you can sell more splatbullshit this way, (b) if done correctly your game masters can homebrew whatever is needed, (c) only a vanishingly few GMs want more than the basic mixes anyway. Not knowing what racial powers a gnome/dwarf is clearly not a big deal because I don't see people homebrewing it. Is there any reason that every possible combination must be hammered out, or should exist? It's easy to make a case for a half-elf, half-orc, or half-ogre. But beyond that, how often do you need it in your games?
To be clear - there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elf and half-orc were put into AD&D1 out of shallow copying of Tolkien. There isn't any internal logic to D&D that makes those half-races special, nor is there any special game balance reason for those two compared to any other half-races.
I think shallow copying of Tolkien is a problem for a lot of fantasy gaming, D&D included. It's more interesting to drop those assumptions and make one's D&D world its own thing.
By coincidence, a few weeks before the WotC announcement, I was trying to justify half-races in my own D&D world. I had to jump through some hoops to rework my cosmology to make those half-races special, as there wasn't anything in the standard D&D background/cosmology to justify it. The only real reason for my doing so was because I made compatibility with the core game a priority in my world design.
I greatly prefer to take my races/peoples from folklore. Half-elves exist in folklore, as do half-trolls. Needless to say, Nordic trolls are completely different from the ones in D&D and come in all shapes and sizes. I don't know where the notion that elves have pointed ears comes from. I have not found it mentioned in any medieval Nordic or Irish text.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on April 19, 2023, 09:18:41 AM
I don't know where the notion that elves have pointed ears comes from. I have not found it mentioned in any medieval Nordic or Irish text.
It's because they have such a
sharp sense of hearing. ;D
ETA: seriously though, the apparent origin is that the fey were believed to always have some flaw in their human guise that revealed their fey nature. Pointed ears were just one of many possibilities that included animal parts (feet, eyes, horns, tails), the wrong number of digits, or limbs attached backwards.
Pointed ears were just one of the easiest traits to both draw and make costuming for and so became the traditional way to depict fey because it was the easiest on illustrators and theater productions.
Quote from: FingerRod on April 19, 2023, 09:01:31 AM
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 06:04:01 PM
To be clear - there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elf and half-orc were put into AD&D1 out of shallow copying of Tolkien. There isn't any internal logic to D&D that makes those half-races special, nor is there any special game balance reason for those two compared to any other half-races.
Agree with you that there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elves were 100% in OD&D.
Half-Elves: Half-elves are half elven and half human, and as such they gain some abilities from each heritage. Half-elves are able to progress simultaneously in both the fighter and magic-user classes and may use both weaponry and spells and otherwise act as elves do.
And while your opinions that it was a shallow copying of Tolkien are your own and legit discussion points, contrary to what you are saying there were game balance decisions in the form of level limits and even how experience was acquired.
My apologies about OD&D. I missed that it had half-elves.
I think we might be miscommunicating about game balance. I'm not saying there wasn't any game balance at all in the game. I was saying that there wasn't a game balance reason for only half-elves as opposed to half-dwarves or other half-races - i.e. mixed parentage of dwarf, elf, giant, god, etc.
In folklore (i.e. not Tolkien), I haven't done a survey, but I suspect there are more half-dwarf characters like Ortnit than half-elf. The reason for exclusively half-elves is Tolkien.
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 06:04:01 PMHowever, half-elf and half-orc were put into AD&D1 out of shallow copying of Tolkien. There isn't any internal logic to D&D that makes those half-races special, nor is there any special game balance reason for those two compared to any other half-races.
I wouldn't call it "shallow copying of Tolkien", I would call it "Including popular fantasy archetypes." Which is my main point from the other half-race thread, that there is little reason to include half-anythings in a game in the first place. Especially if, as in D&D, the difference between the races is already so minor.
The only reason they are in 5e+ is that they are trying to create a fantasy version of Seattle, where all races live in harmony and intermarry without any prejudice or social stigma.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 19, 2023, 02:12:13 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 06:04:01 PMHowever, half-elf and half-orc were put into AD&D1 out of shallow copying of Tolkien. There isn't any internal logic to D&D that makes those half-races special, nor is there any special game balance reason for those two compared to any other half-races.
I wouldn't call it "shallow copying of Tolkien", I would call it "Including popular fantasy archetypes." Which is my main point from the other half-race thread, that there is little reason to include half-anythings in a game in the first place. Especially if, as in D&D, the difference between the races is already so minor.
But half-elf and half-orc were
not "popular fantasy archetypes" in 1978. Elrond in Tolkien is called "half-elf", but he is effectively the same as other elf characters - and most readers wouldn't even recall that he's called "half-elf". There were no named half-orc characters even in Tolkien - just a fleeting reference in Saruman's forces. Neither half-elf nor half-orc are archetypes even in Tolkien. They're just references.
Can you suggest any popular fantasy in 1978 that features half-orcs or half-elves other than Tolkien?
Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 02:30:44 PMBut half-elf and half-orc were not "popular fantasy archetypes" in 1978. Elrond in Tolkien is called "half-elf", but he is effectively the same as other elf characters - and most readers wouldn't even recall that he's called "half-elf".
They are popular because of Tolkien. I read The Hobbit once and I've never read Lord of the Rings but even I knew that Elrond was a half elf the moment I opened my brand new AD&D Players Handbook. But the half races aren't the only thing from Tolkien in D&D. Without Tolkien D&D wouldn't have Ents, Hobbits, Balrogs, Rangers, and the elves in the game would be two feet tall, only come out at night, and help you make shoes (or Christmas presents).
So I don't see why half races need to be singled out as copies from Tolkien when most of the game was as well. And that was precisely because Tolkien was an order of magnitude more popular than all other fantasy at the time put together.
Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 11:44:43 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on April 19, 2023, 09:01:31 AM
Quote from: jhkim on April 18, 2023, 06:04:01 PM
To be clear - there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elf and half-orc were put into AD&D1 out of shallow copying of Tolkien. There isn't any internal logic to D&D that makes those half-races special, nor is there any special game balance reason for those two compared to any other half-races.
Agree with you that there's nothing racist about half-races. However, half-elves were 100% in OD&D.
Half-Elves: Half-elves are half elven and half human, and as such they gain some abilities from each heritage. Half-elves are able to progress simultaneously in both the fighter and magic-user classes and may use both weaponry and spells and otherwise act as elves do.
And while your opinions that it was a shallow copying of Tolkien are your own and legit discussion points, contrary to what you are saying there were game balance decisions in the form of level limits and even how experience was acquired.
My apologies about OD&D. I missed that it had half-elves.
I think we might be miscommunicating about game balance. I'm not saying there wasn't any game balance at all in the game. I was saying that there wasn't a game balance reason for only half-elves as opposed to half-dwarves or other half-races - i.e. mixed parentage of dwarf, elf, giant, god, etc.
In folklore (i.e. not Tolkien), I haven't done a survey, but I suspect there are more half-dwarf characters like Ortnit than half-elf. The reason for exclusively half-elves is Tolkien.
No need to apologize, man. It was not in the 3LBBs.
And ahhh, yes now I see your point around one half versus others.
Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 02:30:44 PM
But half-elf and half-orc were not "popular fantasy archetypes" in 1978. Elrond in Tolkien is called "half-elf", but he is effectively the same as other elf characters - and most readers wouldn't even recall that he's called "half-elf". There were no named half-orc characters even in Tolkien - just a fleeting reference in Saruman's forces. Neither half-elf nor half-orc are archetypes even in Tolkien. They're just references.
Can you suggest any popular fantasy in 1978 that features half-orcs or half-elves other than Tolkien?
Hot take: Paul Atreides.
Warm take: Spock.
You are correct, of course, that half elves were pretty much in Tolkein and nowhere else, and even there they weren't like D&D would do them. In Tolkein, when you married an elf, you were some super noble badass guy with a natural lifespan of hundreds of years, and you and your wife would figure out if you, as a couple, were gonna and and die and go to heaven or live for the entirety of the lifespan of the planet, meaning that race was a bit fungible in these special cases, and of course, Elrond had a brother who made the other choice and ruled as a king for hundreds of years before dying of old age.
But the idea of people being half-monsters or bridging two worlds by blood was definitely in the zeitgeist at the time. Paul Atreides, the protagonist of
Dune and the mistaken result of a breeding program gone almost-right, is effectively half noble mundane, and half psionic witch. Spock's status here doesn't really need much defense- a few might have forgotten that Spock is officially half human and half vulcan, but no one would really claim that Vulcan and Elf are different enough to not qualify. The more popular version of this trope is someone dropped in and raised among some other group- which was around in a ton of science fiction at the time as well.
In any event, D&D definitely put in half-elves and half-orcs to ape Tolkein, and Tolkein's versions of these, while different from the more biological variants seen later, I would think were the main impetus. But the concept is extensible outside of that, and it was used for other things almost as soon as the option was available.
I just don't understand this decision by WotC. It seems completely arbitrary. I don't feel there is anything inherently "racist" about half-elves, half-Orcs, or Half-Ogres (a favorite from Dragon 73).
While I enjoy D&D 5e, I'm not sold on the direction of 6e.
The only thing I can think of wotc doing this for is more pandering to their vocal fans. Their "apology" over the OGL had the "oh we're trying to keep dnd out of the hands of racists and haters" as if there's groups of people using dnd to push their anti-* theories. Then there's the creator's summit and those questions. If wotc and the diehards can't change the real world into the ideal land of harmony they sure can change the fantasy world.
In many ways this is being so woke they circle back around to looking anti-miscegenation.
So according to Wankers of the Coast, characters of mixed ancestry have no place in a D&D setting. So much for Morgan le Fay and Galehault (from Arthurian legend), Ravaggio (from The Orange Tree and the Bee), Valgard (from The Broken Sword), Elrond (from The Hobbit) and countless other characters from mythology, folklore, faerie tales and fantasy fiction -or FRPG characters inspired by them.
That really sucks.
Quote from: Elfdart on April 20, 2023, 10:59:52 PM
So according to Wankers of the Coast, characters of mixed ancestry have no place in a D&D setting. So much for Morgan le Fay and Galehault (from Arthurian legend), Ravaggio (from The Orange Tree and the Bee), Valgard (from The Broken Sword), Elrond (from The Hobbit) and countless other characters from mythology, folklore, faerie tales and fantasy fiction -or FRPG characters inspired by them.
That really sucks.
You can have mixed ancestry, but you have to fully identify with one side.
Morgan Le Fay is ok as she Fully Identifies As Fay.
Morgan Le Half Fay is Not OK.
Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2023, 01:36:06 AM
Quote from: Elfdart on April 20, 2023, 10:59:52 PM
So according to Wankers of the Coast, characters of mixed ancestry have no place in a D&D setting. So much for Morgan le Fay and Galehault (from Arthurian legend), Ravaggio (from The Orange Tree and the Bee), Valgard (from The Broken Sword), Elrond (from The Hobbit) and countless other characters from mythology, folklore, faerie tales and fantasy fiction -or FRPG characters inspired by them.
That really sucks.
You can have mixed ancestry, but you have to fully identify with one side. Morgan Le Fay is ok as she Fully Identifies As Fay. Morgan Le Half Fay is Not OK.
Because binary is only for gender,
m'kay. (http://"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wJXBUfcIOE")
Fucking puppets the lot of them.
Though to be completely honest, they pissed off a lot of people with this shit. It's like they managed to anger both the left and the right at the same time by supporting a position that is so radically SJW that it swings around to outright hard core good ol' deep south jim crow hyper-conservative neo-nazi grade
bullshit.
The political spectrum is a fucking
donut, I swear.
Quote from: Psyckosama on April 21, 2023, 02:36:12 AM
Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2023, 01:36:06 AM
Quote from: Elfdart on April 20, 2023, 10:59:52 PM
So according to Wankers of the Coast, characters of mixed ancestry have no place in a D&D setting. So much for Morgan le Fay and Galehault (from Arthurian legend), Ravaggio (from The Orange Tree and the Bee), Valgard (from The Broken Sword), Elrond (from The Hobbit) and countless other characters from mythology, folklore, faerie tales and fantasy fiction -or FRPG characters inspired by them.
That really sucks.
You can have mixed ancestry, but you have to fully identify with one side. Morgan Le Fay is ok as she Fully Identifies As Fay. Morgan Le Half Fay is Not OK.
Because binary is only for gender, m'kay. (http://"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wJXBUfcIOE")
Fucking puppets the lot of them.
Though to be completely honest, they pissed off a lot of people with this shit. It's like they managed to anger both the left and the right at the same time by supporting a position that is so radically SJW that it swings around to outright hard core good ol' deep south jim crow hyper-conservative Dixiecrat neo-nazi grade bullshit.
The political spectrum is a fucking donut, I swear.
I'm not really sure the donut theory is real.
Yeah, they angered a lot of people regardless of politics, and that's a good thing. Fuck GWotKKK
Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2023, 01:36:06 AM
Quote from: Elfdart on April 20, 2023, 10:59:52 PM
So according to Wankers of the Coast, characters of mixed ancestry have no place in a D&D setting. So much for Morgan le Fay and Galehault (from Arthurian legend), Ravaggio (from The Orange Tree and the Bee), Valgard (from The Broken Sword), Elrond (from The Hobbit) and countless other characters from mythology, folklore, faerie tales and fantasy fiction -or FRPG characters inspired by them.
You can have mixed ancestry, but you have to fully identify with one side. Morgan Le Fay is ok as she Fully Identifies As Fay. Morgan Le Half Fay is Not OK.
Elfdart - in case you missed it, there was a clarification from WotC where they posted:
QuoteOptions for creating characters descended from more than one species are not being removed from Dungeons & Dragons.
Proposed adjustments to character origins have been open to the community since August 2022 and will be revised further: http://spr.ly/6019OyEdH
Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/DnDBeyond/status/1644119263286812672
That links to the D&DOne documents from last year, which has this sidebar:
QuoteCHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS
Thanks to the magical workings of the multiverse, Humanoids of different kinds sometimes have children together. For example, folk who have a human parent and an orc or an elf parent are particularly common. Many other combinations are possible.
If you'd like to play the child of such a wondrous pairing, choose two Race options that are Humanoid to represent your parents. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. For example, if your character has a halfling and a gnome parent, you might choose Halfling for your game traits and then decide that your character has the pointed ears that are characteristic of a gnome.
Finally, determine the average of the two options' Life Span traits to figure out how long your character might live. For example, a child of a halfling and a gnome has an average life span of 288 years.
Source: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/one-dnd/character-origins
S'mon suggests that this means identifying fully with one or the other, but I don't see that in the doc. It does say that your game stats come purely from one side or the other. So Elrond or Morgan Le Fay would have elf stats, but in role-playing, the character could identify in whatever way the player likes.
Quote from: GamerSince77 on April 19, 2023, 11:12:59 PM
I just don't understand this decision by WotC. It seems completely arbitrary. I don't feel there is anything inherently "racist" about half-elves, half-Orcs, or Half-Ogres (a favorite from Dragon 73).
While I enjoy D&D 5e, I'm not sold on the direction of 6e.
Totally agree. It does feel like a very arbitrary decision and makes no real sense.
6e really sounds like all they are doing is rewriting 5e to make it more woke to appease people that don't even play D&D/Buy their books.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 21, 2023, 03:23:30 PM
Totally agree. It does feel like a very arbitrary decision and makes no real sense.
6e really sounds like all they are doing is rewriting 5e to make it more woke to appease people that don't even play D&D/Buy their books.
And they annoyed Daniel "My existence is not Racist!" Kwan!
This banning of half races seems like one of those stunts 4Chan would pull, like getting the OK hand gesture declared a hateful symbol of White Supremacy. Maybe WoTC got trolled? ???
Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2023, 03:27:16 PM
And they annoyed Daniel "My existence is not Racist!" Kwan!
This banning of half races seems like one of those stunts 4Chan would pull, like getting the OK hand gesture declared a hateful symbol of White Supremacy. Maybe WoTC got trolled? ???
Possibly. I wouldn't doubt it since the management at WOTC doesn't seem all that bright.
Does anyone actually pay attention to Daniel Kwan? He seems like an idiot.
Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2023, 03:27:16 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 21, 2023, 03:23:30 PM
Totally agree. It does feel like a very arbitrary decision and makes no real sense.
6e really sounds like all they are doing is rewriting 5e to make it more woke to appease people that don't even play D&D/Buy their books.
And they annoyed Daniel "My existence is not Racist!" Kwan!
This banning of half races seems like one of those stunts 4Chan would pull, like getting the OK hand gesture declared a hateful symbol of White Supremacy. Maybe WoTC got trolled? ???
Wait, so Mr. Magicblood Asian, even though I grew up in the States, Daniel Kwan isn't even 100% Magicblood?
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 21, 2023, 03:30:36 PM
Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2023, 03:27:16 PM
And they annoyed Daniel "My existence is not Racist!" Kwan!
This banning of half races seems like one of those stunts 4Chan would pull, like getting the OK hand gesture declared a hateful symbol of White Supremacy. Maybe WoTC got trolled? ???
Possibly. I wouldn't doubt it since the management at WOTC doesn't seem all that bright.
Does anyone actually pay attention to Daniel Kwan? He seems like an idiot.
Yes. WotC pay attention to Daniel Kwan (and a group of "diversity consultants" like him).
Where do you think this brilliant idea of banning half races came from? ;)
Quote from: jhkim on April 21, 2023, 12:36:28 PM
Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2023, 01:36:06 AM
Quote from: Elfdart on April 20, 2023, 10:59:52 PM
So according to Wankers of the Coast, characters of mixed ancestry have no place in a D&D setting. So much for Morgan le Fay and Galehault (from Arthurian legend), Ravaggio (from The Orange Tree and the Bee), Valgard (from The Broken Sword), Elrond (from The Hobbit) and countless other characters from mythology, folklore, faerie tales and fantasy fiction -or FRPG characters inspired by them.
You can have mixed ancestry, but you have to fully identify with one side. Morgan Le Fay is ok as she Fully Identifies As Fay. Morgan Le Half Fay is Not OK.
Elfdart - in case you missed it, there was a clarification from WotC where they posted:
QuoteOptions for creating characters descended from more than one species are not being removed from Dungeons & Dragons.
Proposed adjustments to character origins have been open to the community since August 2022 and will be revised further: http://spr.ly/6019OyEdH
Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/DnDBeyond/status/1644119263286812672
That links to the D&DOne documents from last year, which has this sidebar:
QuoteCHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS
Thanks to the magical workings of the multiverse, Humanoids of different kinds sometimes have children together. For example, folk who have a human parent and an orc or an elf parent are particularly common. Many other combinations are possible.
If you'd like to play the child of such a wondrous pairing, choose two Race options that are Humanoid to represent your parents. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. For example, if your character has a halfling and a gnome parent, you might choose Halfling for your game traits and then decide that your character has the pointed ears that are characteristic of a gnome.
Finally, determine the average of the two options' Life Span traits to figure out how long your character might live. For example, a child of a halfling and a gnome has an average life span of 288 years.
Source: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/one-dnd/character-origins
S'mon suggests that this means identifying fully with one or the other, but I don't see that in the doc. It does say that your game stats come purely from one side or the other. So Elrond or Morgan Le Fay would have elf stats, but in role-playing, the character could identify in whatever way the player likes.
With that explanation, it seems somewhat reasonable. In my own campaign, I've ruled that the various hybrids are humans. Elf + goblin = human. Ogre + pixie = human. This has nothing to do with hostility to the idea of made-up creatures doing the deed, but my own lack of interest in concocting stats for all these mixtures.
Quote from: Elfdart on April 21, 2023, 08:00:27 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 21, 2023, 12:36:28 PM
Quote from: S'mon on April 21, 2023, 01:36:06 AM
Quote from: Elfdart on April 20, 2023, 10:59:52 PM
So according to Wankers of the Coast, characters of mixed ancestry have no place in a D&D setting. So much for Morgan le Fay and Galehault (from Arthurian legend), Ravaggio (from The Orange Tree and the Bee), Valgard (from The Broken Sword), Elrond (from The Hobbit) and countless other characters from mythology, folklore, faerie tales and fantasy fiction -or FRPG characters inspired by them.
You can have mixed ancestry, but you have to fully identify with one side. Morgan Le Fay is ok as she Fully Identifies As Fay. Morgan Le Half Fay is Not OK.
Elfdart - in case you missed it, there was a clarification from WotC where they posted:
QuoteOptions for creating characters descended from more than one species are not being removed from Dungeons & Dragons.
Proposed adjustments to character origins have been open to the community since August 2022 and will be revised further: http://spr.ly/6019OyEdH
Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/DnDBeyond/status/1644119263286812672
That links to the D&DOne documents from last year, which has this sidebar:
QuoteCHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS
Thanks to the magical workings of the multiverse, Humanoids of different kinds sometimes have children together. For example, folk who have a human parent and an orc or an elf parent are particularly common. Many other combinations are possible.
If you'd like to play the child of such a wondrous pairing, choose two Race options that are Humanoid to represent your parents. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. For example, if your character has a halfling and a gnome parent, you might choose Halfling for your game traits and then decide that your character has the pointed ears that are characteristic of a gnome.
Finally, determine the average of the two options' Life Span traits to figure out how long your character might live. For example, a child of a halfling and a gnome has an average life span of 288 years.
Source: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/one-dnd/character-origins
S'mon suggests that this means identifying fully with one or the other, but I don't see that in the doc. It does say that your game stats come purely from one side or the other. So Elrond or Morgan Le Fay would have elf stats, but in role-playing, the character could identify in whatever way the player likes.
With that explanation, it seems somewhat reasonable. In my own campaign, I've ruled that the various hybrids are humans. Elf + goblin = human. Ogre + pixie = human. This has nothing to do with hostility to the idea of made-up creatures doing the deed, but my own lack of interest in concocting stats for all these mixtures.
That is shockingly reasonable, and probably the only answer that really matters.
Separate from that, it is arbitrary. This entire half-whatever stance by WotC is as shallow as anything Crawford has produced.
Quote from: Elfdart on April 21, 2023, 08:00:27 PM
With that explanation, it seems somewhat reasonable. In my own campaign, I've ruled that the various hybrids are humans. Elf + goblin = human. Ogre + pixie = human. This has nothing to do with hostility to the idea of made-up creatures doing the deed, but my own lack of interest in concocting stats for all these mixtures.
Heh.
I'd have gone Elf+Goblin = Halfling and Ogre + Pixie = physically improbable. :p