Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 18, 2023, 12:44:46 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 12:20:12 AM
I'm torn on this.  On the one hand, I've never liked half races in D&D or even other fantasy RPGs.  My understanding is that they're not just different races of humanity, they're different species, thus they should not be able to produce offspring.  Okay, maybe donkeylike infertile offspring if they're really close genetically, but my impression is that they're not.  They also blur the distinctiveness of the races, which makes getting a clear idea of what each one is like more difficult.  AFIAC half-races don't add anything beneficial to the game.

The thing that all this talk about genetic compatibility seems to be missing is...

magic

And also humans cross breeding with magical creatures like fey (such as Elves), demons and angels is already established in real life folklore. So including them in D&D isn't such a far fetched concept, cuz this ain't sci-fi.

Nothing new here of course ... this conversation has been had innumerable times .  As in everything it's a matter of personal preference.  I don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing.  Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean I want to throw baseline nature out the window.  I'll happily do so for a good reason, but every departure from real life has a cost in verisimilitude and player connection to the world.  In the case of half races, I just don't think it's worth it.  They don't add anything to the game that can't be done better by having actually different races.

The bit about folklore is a reasonable point, and I'd included half races if I'm trying to emulate some specific folklore setting, but otherwise still no.

I don't mind the argument for "because magic", but if it is going to be used, then stopping at half-elf or half-orc or half-anything seems rather arbitrary.  More specifically, having nothing but "half" races seems like a half-baked idea and a half-assed implementation.

Still, half-anything is superior to anything WotKKK can come up with.  They and their allies are already edging into parallel logic with 1930's eugenics.  That's one of the things that happens when progressives take their "thoughts" to their "logical" conclusions, especially ones that are completely ignorant of history.  It's only a matter of time before they tie themselves up into knots trying to justify blood-line thinking that contradicts itself. 

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 18, 2023, 07:53:06 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AMI don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing. 

I agree but D&D has almost always used magic to justify nonsense. D&D was a gritty """Realistic""" universe for a very very very short period of time, and was filled with different goofy monsters for much much longer.

On a more basic level which is also no doubt "problematic" or whatever they want to call it, Magic use might be inheritable so it is relevant whether someone has a Magical parent or not. If D&D still has those weird and wonderful "spell-like abilities" likewise you need to know if you inherit them and at what if any strength. But from the sounds of it all that the half-characters will be left with is the same stats as one of their parents and a cosmetic appearance.

Have the D&D galaxy brains thought through the implications for when two different HUMAN races mate? I know most humans are just generic lead figurines with no discernible features but surely in the 2020s they've loaded up all the hidden races, sub-races and special module races with little odd abilities.

It would also be odd to think that a Half-Orc is always now going to look either human or orc and have the stats of a human or orc, leading to humans with orc stats and orcs with human stats. I mean, a good gamemaster can make anything work, but why put people to all this trouble? It's hardly catering to the original proud boast of being able to play whatever you like and only be limited by your imagination etc. etc.

And it is the kiss of death for Dark Sun if they have reanimated that rotting corpse again.

Personally, I liked 4E's take on half-elves.

They got attribute bonuses different from both their parents (elves were Dex and Wis, humans were any one)... Constitution (representing the concept of hybrid vigor) and Charisma (because they had to navigate two cultures as a semi-outsider they quickly learn how to be pleasant and charming).

Similarly, they got bonuses to diplomacy and insight instead of an extra trained skill or to perception and nature.

Unlike the human racial power of heroic effort, or the elven accuracy of an elf, the half-elf got a luck-based racial ability (as their birth was already a small miracle).

Of note on genetic compatibility; in the 4E cosmology, elves are essentially the reflection of humans in the Feywild (thus infused with magic). So basically mundane humans and humans from a saturated with magic from a parallel dimension could interbreed.

The abilities made sense for the implied 4E-setting, but weren't just some of column A and some of column B.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AMI don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing.  Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean I want to throw baseline nature out the window.  I'll happily do so for a good reason, but every departure from real life has a cost in verisimilitude and player connection to the world.

Except this is either wrong-headed or disingenuous. "Because Magic" is shorthand for "it's a universe where actual gods exist, and they created the races from out of thin air, and as children of the gods they can interbreed."

Saying they can interbreed because the universe has magical rules doesn't ruin verisimilitude, but trying to bring genetics into it does. The races being capable of interbreeding isn't a lazy plothole filler, it's a conscious thematic choice by the game's creators. It has a cogent explanation as to why it works, and has in-universe consistency (IE a Human and Elf have a Half-Elven child, not a cat baby, or a Dragon.)

If you don't like it for subjective reasons, just don't include them. But they're completely appropriate to the setting, and are intwined in 50 years of lore.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 11:20:26 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AMI don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing.  Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean I want to throw baseline nature out the window.  I'll happily do so for a good reason, but every departure from real life has a cost in verisimilitude and player connection to the world.

Except this is either wrong-headed or disingenuous. "Because Magic" is shorthand for "it's a universe where actual gods exist, and they created the races from out of thin air, and as children of the gods they can interbreed."

Saying they can interbreed because the universe has magical rules doesn't ruin verisimilitude, but trying to bring genetics into it does. The races being capable of inbreeding isn't a lazy plothole filler, it's a conscious thematic choice by the game's creators. It has a cogent explanation as to why it works, and has in-universe consistency (IE a Human and Elf have a Half-Elven child, not a cat baby, or a Dragon.)

If you don't like it for subjective reasons, just don't include them. But they're completely appropriate to the setting, and are intwined in 50 years of lore.

Genetics doesn't need to be brought it into it, it's just sometimes convenient to do so.  "Nature" will do.  People understood that different species didn't produce offspring, except the very close ones that produce sterile offspring, long before we knew anything about genetics. 

The "There's no rules about about species interbreeding / there's no genetics because gods made the world" argument cited upthread and obliquely referred to in your post I find completely unpersuasive, as God made the real world and we have genetics here.

And I couldn't care less about 50 years of RPG tradition.  I was in the hobby when it was new and disliked halfraces back then.  AFAIAC it's just another self-propagating silly D&Dism.

It's not a huge big deal for me either way, but I'd rather have them not in the game as they make the setting less believable for me and can create unnecessary issues on the game side of things.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 11:49:05 AMThe "There's no rules about about species interbreeding / there's no genetics" argument cited upthread and obliquely referred to in your post I find completely unpersuasive, as God made the real world and we have genetics here.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 11:20:26 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 03:25:20 AMI don't like the argument "because magic" because it can be used to justify any nonsensical thing.  Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean I want to throw baseline nature out the window.  I'll happily do so for a good reason, but every departure from real life has a cost in verisimilitude and player connection to the world.

Except this is either wrong-headed or disingenuous. "Because Magic" is shorthand for "it's a universe where actual gods exist, and they created the races from out of thin air, and as children of the gods they can interbreed."

Saying they can interbreed because the universe has magical rules doesn't ruin verisimilitude, but trying to bring genetics into it does. The races being capable of interbreeding isn't a lazy plothole filler, it's a conscious thematic choice by the game's creators. It has a cogent explanation as to why it works, and has in-universe consistency (IE a Human and Elf have a Half-Elven child, not a cat baby, or a Dragon.)

If you don't like it for subjective reasons, just don't include them. But they're completely appropriate to the setting, and are intwined in 50 years of lore.

Orcs, being inherently Evil weren't created by no gods, but by some sort of demon... So how come they can also interbreed with humans? Because this obviously contradicts your carefully laid argument.

That's the reason -in the worlds where I allow half-races- I don't explain anything beyond "because magic". No, it doesn't open the door to silly shit, it's MY table/world I created/run it, I decide what goes and what doesn't... Anyone that doesn't like it is shown the door.

In my Mayan inspired fantasy world the different races CAN'T interbreed, because magic, the gods created them from different stuff, so the magic doesn't allow it. Don't like it? find another table.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:20:14 PMIn my Mayan inspired fantasy world the different races CAN'T interbreed, because magic, the gods created them from different stuff, so the magic doesn't allow it. Don't like it? find another table.

I see no reason why I can't play my half-Oil, half-Water person.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:20:14 PMDon't like it? find another table.

Um...Im kinda losing focus of this entire debate. Is this:

"Well Im glad WOTC is banning the term Half-X, because even if I disagree with the reasoning, I no longer want this to exist as a toolbox option for any other game ever because I dislike it in my games"

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 12:27:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:20:14 PMIn my Mayan inspired fantasy world the different races CAN'T interbreed, because magic, the gods created them from different stuff, so the magic doesn't allow it. Don't like it? find another table.

I see no reason why I can't play my half-Oil, half-Water person.

How quickly you forget:

Maize people (Mayan)
Clay people
Monkey people
Either Tree or Jaguar people (haven't decided yet).

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 18, 2023, 12:47:20 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:20:14 PMDon't like it? find another table.

Um...Im kinda losing focus of this entire debate. Is this:

"Well Im glad WOTC is banning the term Half-X, because even if I disagree with the reasoning, I no longer want this to exist as a toolbox option for any other game ever because I dislike it in my games"

Are you asking or asserting?

No, that's not MY argument (can't speak for everybody else tho), in some worlds I allow half-races, in other's I don't, I'm grateful the templates exist because it saves me the trouble of house-ruling it for every single instance, not that I haven't created my own half-races on occasion, but it's nice not to have to do all the work yourself.

GWotKKK can do whatever they want with their IP, I'll just point at how utterly stupid they are for doing so.

In your world/table you allow for halfling/giant hybrids? good for you, no, I don't want to talk about the logistics of it. You don't ever allow for half-races? Good for you, hope you and your players are having fun.

It's TWO different arguments:

Removing/Changing how they work half-races because "it's inherently racist" is stupid.

Half-races make no sense (or they totally do) because genetics, nature, magic, what have you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:49:19 PMMaize people (Mayan)

So if I ate you with salsa, not only would you be delicious, I'd technically be a vegetarian.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 01:31:37 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2023, 12:49:19 PMMaize people (Mayan)

So if I ate you with salsa, not only would you be delicious, I'd technically be a vegetarian.

No, you'd be an Aztec 

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 18, 2023, 12:06:12 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 18, 2023, 11:49:05 AMThe "There's no rules about about species interbreeding / there's no genetics" argument cited upthread and obliquely referred to in your post I find completely unpersuasive, as God made the real world and we have genetics here.

Are you here to discuss RPGs, or just to be an ass?  If it's the latter, I'll just put you on my ignore list and be done with it.

Quote from: SHARK on April 18, 2023, 04:36:29 AM
Great commentary, S'mon! I get what they are doing--and what you're saying--but the whole idea of you being a "Half X" but somehow being restricted to picking only traits from one parent...is prima facie absurd. Normal, natural biological dynamics demonstrate to us that mixed offspring clearly--and typically--gain attributes from both parents.

I think you could defend any of these ideas:

1- Have a half- template for each half breed you decide both exists and is playable as a PC.  This is what has always been done, and why every player's handbook in the AD&D line has had a half-elf, and many have had a half-orc.

2- Have a few half- templates.  For instance, you could have two kinds of half-elves, one for those that are more human, and one for those that are more elven.  AD&D 1e made some claims in this direction- for instance, as orcs are fecund, most half orcs (I think the book said 90%) are basically indistinguishable from orcs, with the players being in the superior 10% that could function around humans.  You could also claim that either the mother or the father is simply dominant in some aspects, much as a liger and a tigon differ:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigon

3- Try to actually divide what it means to be a given race into two or four equally powerful buckets, and then have everyone just choose that number of options.  This would work much better for games that use larger base numbers than D&D.  For instance, if you decided that each quarter of human gives you one skill point and one hit point and one quarter a feat, and every quarter of elf gives you 10 feet of dark vision and one hit point and one weapon proficiency, you could end up with something that would be serviceable, if min-maxxy and silly.  I think this would work badly in D&D type games, but it would probably work fine in a game with more detailed and annoying character generation.

4- Decide on a dominant race, and then portray all the half- pieces as variations thereof, with each having some choices like that.  This is what Pathfinder does.

I think (1) is the best option.  It allows for fine grained control, makes the most sense, allows for each DM to simply checkbox allow/ban things that work in their game world without impinging on other systems, is tried and true, and can be balanced easily, and is arguably realistic enough.  But a lot of other things do work.