Quote from: LordVreeg;383742...But Prep time?  There are a lot of tools that did not exist when I was spending all that time prepping.  I can't begin to tell you how much time my wiki and email and printer save me over what I used to have to do for prep.

this is true for sure.
I might not prep much for games but I also run a Murder Mystery company for paying customers and obviously that needs prep in terms of character write up props and so on and the web is totally and utterly invaluable.
I used to have to wade through library books checking for historical facts or names of people at certain times. Now is on wikipedia or somewhere. The quality of props I can create now thanks to photoshop and access to a world of stuff like post-marks from 1922 Berlin or newpaper adverts from 1886 all that stuff it is totally golden.
Want an authentic Will from the 1920s just type Wills 1920 into Google

Quote from: LordVreeg;383742I admit I miss not having to make all the tough choices I do now.  It does make it harder for adults to make time to game.  But Prep time?  There are a lot of tools that did not exist when I was spending all that time prepping.  I can't begin to tell you how much time my wiki and email and printer save me over what I used to have to do for prep.

Plus some of who had some experience with sandbox campaign have written points to help make the most of GM's limited prep time. For example my "How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox" here http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-to-make-fantasy-sandbox.html

Takes about a couple of days to do and you have enough material to last a while.

Quote from: LordVreeg;383742Oh, don't tie this back to the whole "Rose Colored Glasses' thing, we've already beat that horse, dragged it around, beat it again, put the bones in a museum, then stole the exhibit and pulverized it in the escape attempt.

I admit I miss not having to make all the tough choices I do now.  It does make it harder for adults to make time to game.  But Prep time?  There are a lot of tools that did not exist when I was spending all that time prepping.  I can't begin to tell you how much time my wiki and email and printer save me over what I used to have to do for prep.

Rose-colored glasses means you're looking back and giving something a fonder memory then it deserves based on sentimentality.  I'm talking about something concrete, like actually having a lot of prep time to do things right.  Not having enough time to adequately prep a sandbox can lead to smaller-scale campaign areas, which start to appear like less of a sandbox.  Of course, the technology issue is a good one, prep is a lot easier these days, also with age might come less time, but also you're way better at making stuff up on the fly.

It doesn't have anything to do for me with some mythical time playing 20 hours a game. It's got everything to do with practical, actual gaming now. I honestly don't think one needs that much prep to get a sandbox ready to go. Just like you can get a full dungeon map with a dozen keyed, one-line encounters and run it from there.

Quote from: Benoist;383879It doesn't have anything to do for me with some mythical time playing 20 hours a game. It's got everything to do with practical, actual gaming now. I honestly don't think one needs that much prep to get a sandbox ready to go. Just like you can get a full dungeon map with a dozen keyed, one-line encounters and run it from there.

True, but that depends entirely on how much Motion you want your World to be in.  Really making a campaign come alive takes a fuckton of prep if your campaign is say City of Greyhawk as opposed to Keep on the Borderlands.

Quote from: CRKrueger;383937Really making a campaign come alive takes a fuckton of prep if your campaign is say City of Greyhawk as opposed to Keep on the Borderlands.

Really? Does it? :hmm:

Quote from: CRKrueger;383937True, but that depends entirely on how much Motion you want your World to be in.  Really making a campaign come alive takes a fuckton of prep if your campaign is say City of Greyhawk as opposed to Keep on the Borderlands.

Yeah, when I mentioned the glasses, I was referring to the thread that would not die a little while ago.

I also agree that while there are a lot of tools for making it an easier job that it used to be, and that there are shortcuts and templates...nothing beats prep to make it happen.  It's lile improv theatre vs a Broadway play...talent shows, and it can work...but the rehearsals and familiarity with the material will tell every time.

Igbar, Capital of Trabler has been a play center for Celtricia for over 26 years now.   and it still takes a lot of work.  For a few sessions, a GM can really fake it, but good prep is impossible to fake, long term.  No argument.

You see I don't think that there is as much prep as folks think.

I ran a Cyberpunk style campaign for 2 years my prep was a flow chart and about 4 NPCs. The PCs ended up travelling to a lunar base and back and the game ended with a shootout in a luxury Hotel in LA. Similarly I have run campaigns ranging from a few months to years on the same basis.

I like the world in motion concept but like so much else that relates to RPGs its all an illusion.

Like Benoist says a map and a few notes on encounters is all it takes.

I don't knock prep but it should be seen as fun for its own sake not as a requirement to a great game.

Linking back to the what makes a good DM theme I would say if you have

i) Rules mastery - because it builds trust
ii) A good memory - because then you don't to ask questiosn abotu PCs or look up loads of stuff, but I think its most important with hooks. If you can hook an improv'ed or random encounter back to the PC's background you last read 4 weeks ago never having asked them to see it again they will think that the whole think was plnned from the get go.
iii) A great Imagination - texture and detail are the key.
iv) The Trust of the players - if players trust you they will go with it and any micro errors will be over looked

You don't actually need to do that much prep. The ruels for improv games are simple

i) never overuse the same trope - if every NPC is called Bob and talks with an Irish accent it gets old really fast
ii) always make sure stuff stays where you left it - this includes names and flavour of places
iii) give the illusion of a 'World in Motion' through linking arcs - you can create all sorts of sub-plots on the fly, the PCs see a courtier leaving the queen's chambers in the middle of the night can lead to a string of adventures
iv) keep the game moving - don't let games drag, a 2 KM maze might sound like a good idea on paper but gets dull reall fast, feel free to collapse and telescope time - this is just standard GM practice but if you are improv'ing the tendancy to repeat is really strong.
v) Foreshadowing - don't just adlib the present, seed stuff you will reuse later, the name of a sage, a scrap of parchment, chuck it in and remember it for later (shit if you are lazy then write it down somewhere ).

It also depends on the rules system, as I don't think many DMs could successfully run a low-prep sandbox using 3E D&D.

Seven locations.  That's all the prep you need to start with.  The hex the PCs are in and the six adjacent ones.

Quote from: Benoist;383939Really? Does it? :hmm:

I think so.  I think we all, as GMs run into the world of improv quite a bit, as there is no such thing as full preparation for the players in an RPG game.  But I think that the GM who underpreps a campaign and thinks they are running as good a session as they would have run with enough prep is fooling themself.  The players may not complain, and maybe people had a good time, but underprepping is something I notice.  A good GM who underpreps may be better still than a lousy with tons of extra backstory done, but a good GM with the prep will run the best possible game in most situations.

Or, to answer Jibba in his own terms,

Quote from: JibbaI don't knock prep but it should be seen as fun for its own sake not as a requirement to a great game.

It is not a requirement for a good game, or a fun game.  It is not even a requirement for a great game.  It will make almost any game better, however.  Yours, mine, everyone's.  And in my opinion, a GM is deluding themselves if they think they are running a great campaign without enough prep.  

Quote from: VreegI also agree that while there are a lot of tools for making it an easier job that it used to be, and that there are shortcuts and templates...nothing beats prep to make it happen. It's lile improv theatre vs a Broadway play...talent shows, and it can work...but the rehearsals and familiarity with the material will tell every time.

Quote from: jrients;384037Seven locations.  That's all the prep you need to start with.  The hex the PCs are in and the six adjacent ones.

Yes. I tend to agree with this.

Or, to put it in other words, what I think you really need is a base idea, a concept for the area, like for instance two tribes fighting over the river and resources, or some such, a bunch of landmarks, maybe a list of random encounters to roll on every once in a while, and that's it, really. You can have a great game with just this.

Quote from: LordVreeg;384038[Prep] is not a requirement for a good game, or a fun game.  It is not even a requirement for a great game.  It will make almost any game better, however.  Yours, mine, everyone's.  And in my opinion, a GM is deluding themselves if they think they are running a great campaign without enough prep.

Depends what we mean by "Great Campaign". You'd need to precise your thought in this regard.

If you want depth, sure, no prep might become a problem, because what exists in terms of the GM's side of the screen is basically what the PCs get to interact with, and not much else, AT FIRST. Indeed, this stuff may accumulate through actual play and take a life of its own via game interactions. In that case, there's virtually no prep going on, but the world is literally set in motion by the players during the first (few) games, and then takes momentum from the players' initial shove. It's not impossible and in fact, not that hard to realize, IMO.

Also, let's not forget that the synergy between all the players and the GM, and the players between themselves, is ultimately what matters the most towards people having a good time.

Lastly, there is such a thing as too much prep, as well.

Quote from: BENOIST

Quote from: Originally Posted by LordVreeg[Prep] is not a requirement for a good game, or a fun game. It is not even a requirement for a great game. It will make almost any game better, however. Yours, mine, everyone's. And in my opinion, a GM is deluding themselves if they think they are running a great campaign without enough prep.

Depends what we mean by "Great Campaign". You'd need to precise your thought in this regard.

If you want depth, sure, no prep might become a problem, because what exists in terms of the GM's side of the screen is basically what the PCs get to interact with, and not much else, AT FIRST. Indeed, this stuff may accumulate through actual play and take a life of its own via game interactions. In that case, there's virtually no prep going on, but the world is literally set in motion by the players during the first (few) games, and then takes momentum from the players' initial shove. It's not impossible and in fact, not that hard to realize, IMO.

Also, let's not forget that the synergy between all the players and the GM, and the players between themselves, is ultimately what matters the most towards people having a good time.

Lastly, there is such a thing as too much prep, as well.

Slippery Slope #1...The term, "enough prep"
Slippery Slope #2...The term, "Great Campaign"

Let me put that out there first.

Let me also agree that excess depth in certain areas is wasted time for the GM.  
My opinion, hoever, remains that this situation,

Quote from: BenoistIn that case, there's virtually no prep going on, but the world is literally set in motion by the players during the first (few) games, and then takes momentum from the players' initial shove. It's not impossible and in fact, not that hard to realize, IMO.

is always made better by work on backstory, plot, NPCs, motivations, and history.  I'm not saying you can't have a good, fun game with the skeletal approach.  But it invariably will be a better game when the 'back of the house' in order.  I don't care how talented, how experienced, or how good the group is.  The real consistency and depth that is NECESSARY for a continued 'World in Motion 'feel needs work and effort.

Quote from: LordVreeg;384073Slippery Slope #1...The term, "enough prep"
Slippery Slope #2...The term, "Great Campaign"

Yes. Slippery slopes they are. No question about it.

Quote from: LordVreeg;384073My opinion, hoever, remains that this situation, is always made better by work on backstory, plot, NPCs, motivations, and history.  I'm not saying you can't have a good, fun game with the skeletal approach.  But it invariably will be a better game when the 'back of the house' in order.  I don't care how talented, how experienced, or how good the group is.  The real consistency and depth that is NECESSARY for a continued 'World in Motion 'feel needs work and effort.

I don't agree. Not always.
I know what you mean: it's your turf. Your specialty. That's where your heart and soul goes into gaming: the world-building. You're a guy who loves structure, coherent conceptual design, with a particular attention to detail and depth. I feel like I know you, dude.

It's not like that for every GM, though.

If anything, I feel this will HUGELY depend on the particular GM, and his improvisational skills especially (and beyond that, the way his brain operates in terms of imagination - there's no right or wrong answer on this, just different takes according to different types of brains and personalities). I honestly can tell you stories of games that went much better than I could ever have hoped for BECAUSE there was little prep involved, not more.

I guess there will be a "right amount of prep" sort of balance that each GM will have to figure out for him or herself, and sometimes, not prepping extensively means you're opening yourself up to the inspiration of the moment in the game. Some of my best memories of gaming, if not the vast majority of them, really, came from the players doing something unexpected that required from me to basically throw my pile of notes through the window and just run with whatever they had in mind, making shit up as we went.

Quote from: CRKrueger;383937True, but that depends entirely on how much Motion you want your World to be in.  Really making a campaign come alive takes a fuckton of prep if your campaign is say City of Greyhawk as opposed to Keep on the Borderlands.

I'd disagree.

IME, you can start a city-based sandbox the same way you start a wilderness-based sandbox: A dozen or two keyed locations; some methods of dynamic content generation (i.e. random tables); and a handful of good scenario hooks to get the PCs involved in the game world.

In terms of keeping the city "in motion", I can manage that with two documents: What's scheduled to happen to the PCs (appointments they've made and people/things planning to find them) and a timeline of meta-events/headlines (1-3 per day).

These are occasionally supplemented by more complex "backdrop" scenarios revolving around major events (like a schism of the local church or a major gang war), but even these generally end up flowing through the other two documents.

You can obviously do more than that. But you don't have to design the entire City of Greyhawk boxed set or the 600 pages of Ptolus in order to start adventuring in those cities. (Any more than you need to design the entire world of Greyhawk in order to start a wilderness-based sandbox.)