Looks like Ben and I are in complete agreement on how it's interpreted and run in game.

Quote from: jibbajibba;564942If you had 3 wishes now in the real world what would you actually wish for ? 10 more wishes please ? World peace? A fat sausage, a tiny son the size of your thumb?  Ultimate Cosmic Power?

It's the question, isn't it? If you had the power to wish for things that would come true, albeit sometimes in ways that would not prove to be the panacea you are looking for (as the use of wishes to the Djinns often backfire themselves), what would you wish for? How many wishes would you make, if you had an unlimited supply of them? Would you keep on wishing to fix the consequences of your previous wishes, and on and on, when you started standing up high and mighty with your hubris, thinking you could deal with everything the multiverse would throw at you? Or would you keep simple, keep it to the bare minimum, the absolutely necessary, ready to deal with those wishes' consequences as well?

What are you going to do with it? It's a choice. Your choice.

Quote from: jibbajibba;564942It's not an I win button if the DM decides its not. But if its not why include it?

Choice.

I hate Evards Black Tentacles. Not because it's broken but because it's soooo fucking tedious to resolve in combat. Every few years we forget how badly it sucks the fun out of combat and someone casts it again. Usually it's the other players who tell the wizard to pick another bloody spell!

In D&D the high level game is a lot more work for the DM. Some are fine with hat and some not. Trying to change the underlying rules (as opposed to just houseruling a few spells) to address that carries real risk of it not being D&D anymore i.e 4E.

Saying that high level play for D&D is too complex for your personal taste is a valid criticism, however. I'm not sure if other RPGs do a better job of modeling epic play with less crunch.

Quote from: Fiasco;564963In D&D the high level game is a lot more work for the DM. Some are fine with hat and some not. Trying to change the underlying rules (as opposed to just houseruling a few spells) to address that carries real risk of it not being D&D anymore i.e 4E.

Saying that high level play for D&D is too complex for your personal taste is a valid criticism, however. I'm not sure if other RPGs do a better job of modeling epic play with less crunch.

I'm actually in 100% agreement with this. But notice that basically no one on this thread was actually doing more than suggesting a couple odd spells.

I literally pulled from like 1000 or more 3e spells, and I came up with 8 spells that are actually game breaking, and 10 other spells that actually fundamentally change the game in a way that I don't appreciate. And 7 of those 10 are charm or dominate with a different target entry.

So this isn't really the place to be worrying about people destroying the game by significant changes.

Quote from: Fiasco;564963I'm not sure if other RPGs do a better job of modeling epic play with less crunch.

I think Tunnels & Trolls does a decent job of it, since its a fairly light system. There can be a fair few dice being thrown around, though.

Quote from: Kaelik;564984I literally pulled from like 1000 or more 3e spells, and I came up with 8 spells that are actually game breaking, and 10 other spells that actually fundamentally change the game in a way that I don't appreciate. And 7 of those 10 are charm or dominate with a different target entry.

It's easy to be bothered because everybody complains about D&D. But part of the reason everybody complains about D&D is that everybody plays D&D.

Usually the problem is not with high level play, but with one or two spells, or the mass of spells available.

Quote from: Kaelik;564984I'm actually in 100% agreement with this. But notice that basically no one on this thread was actually doing more than suggesting a couple odd spells.

I literally pulled from like 1000 or more 3e spells, and I came up with 8 spells that are actually game breaking, and 10 other spells that actually fundamentally change the game in a way that I don't appreciate. And 7 of those 10 are charm or dominate with a different target entry.

So this isn't really the place to be worrying about people destroying the game by significant changes.

A good middle ground that was suggested by Talysman would be to make either those spells that truly bother scroll only or ritual only. Or go as far as he does and make all 7+ level spells scroll (I would make them ritual like ACKS).

Quote from: Marleycat;564995A good middle ground that was suggested by Talysman would be to make either those spells that truly bother scroll only or ritual only. Or go as far as he does and make all 7+ level spells scroll (I would make them ritual like ACKS).

That... Is not at all helpful.

Perhaps you should read my list of broken spells before you start making comments like that?

That is not a middle ground at all. All of those spells are just as problematic on scrolls. Most of them are already rituals, you spend 10 minutes casting Magic Circle Against Evil before you actually cast Planar Binding, who cares if Planar Binding also takes ten minutes.

Same for Gating in the BBEG, ect.

Now, obviously just making all spells above level 7 ritual or scroll only is also not a middle ground, since the one end is 3.5 RAW, and the other end is one inch to the left, someplace five miles away cannot be the middle ground between those two.

Just because you have some need to interpet the game literally don't get your panties in a bunch.  You could excise them completely or limit still access or remove scribe scroll from the game. Or any number of things. Basically I think you interpet spells in the charm school wrong anyway and it compounds your issues.

Quote from: Marleycat;565012Just because you have some need to interpet the game literally don't get your panties in a bunch.  You could excise them completely or limit still access or remove scribe scroll from the game. Or any number of things. Basically I think you interpet spells in the charm school wrong anyway and it compounds your issues.

:banghead:

Stop being an idiot.

I could remove those spells from the game. I never said I couldn't. But this is a thread about what spells are broken. So I listed the game breaking ones. I can and have made houserule fixes to everything I listed. But that has no effect on what spells are in fact broken.

I could limit access, but that's one of those stupid things that makes you a grognard and not a sane person. If Gate instantly destroys the campaign when it shows up, then having it be rare doesn't solve the problem when it does come up, and is in all ways inferior to just not allowing it at all. And once again, Wizards having complete free access to all level 9 spells that are not Gate/Mindrape/Wish is not in any way a problem.

Remove Scribe Scroll? What the fuck does Scribe Scroll have to do with Gate? No really what? The problem is not that Wizards have access to a lot of spells. The problem is that some spells are shittily written.

And while it's fine that you think I interpret spells in the charm school wrong, even though I have never once told you how I interpret them, and you are just doing that thing where you don't bother to figure out what you are saying before you say it, because strawmen burn so nicely, all the same, that is completely irrelevant, because various charm spells aren't even on the list of broken spells.

So in other words:

Congratulations on being literally as wrong as it is possible to be. That was amazing.

PS: In the future, see if you can figure out what the problems with the spells are by reading the post where I explain what the problems are before you make terrible suggestions that have nothing to do with the problems.

Quote from: The Butcher;564433Polymorph other is my personal pet peeve. It's only a 4th-level in most editions, but still broken as all hell.

The easiest fix, of course, is to make it temporary, with a minimal chance (say, three failed saves in a row) of permanency, if any.

This incorrect. The easiest fix is to draw a line through it and take it off the spell list.

Quote from: Gib;565021This incorrect. The easiest fix is to draw a line through it and take it off the spell list.

Too true; that's how I handle wish (a spell that's more trouble than it's worth, in my book). And yet there's something about turning princes into frogs, sailors into pigs, etc., which is why I'm going out of my way to "fix" it.

After the debacle started I went back and looked at the AD&D 1e version, and turns out it's fairly different from the BECMI/RC version I'm used to. I liked it much better, as it uses the difference in HD and Intelligence score as a basis for a d% permanency roll.

Understood. Two out of the three Sinbad movies depend on the spell for their plot, so it can't be totally bad. However, in both cases, it has to be dispelled and it aint easy.

Quote from: Benoist;564893Let them find out how complicated the situation really is, and let them formulate their own plan of rescue and try to work out their strategy and tactics to get in and out of the Tower of Woe. You've done your own job as a DM. This place is reknowned to be impregnable. Are the heroes going to succeed where no mortal soul has before them? It's up to them. Let them scry, divine... and have a conversation with the Tower's Overlord as he becomes aware of them looking down upon his Domain. Have him laugh at them, taunt them, dare them to come down and teleport right where he stands. Challenge them to bring their best game at the game table. The Legions of Hell are waiting for them.


I have the completely opposite experience. Players have fun at high level when they are properly challenged. It takes you, the DM, to know what you are doing, to know the spells, the forces in presence, to have a milieu that is indeed challenging to the players. The PCs aren't in Kansas anymore. It's time to up the game and see what they can do with the big guns, when the guys they're facing can do the same right back.


Not necessarily hidden all the time. It's not about hiding threats, or negating magic by saying "nope your teleport doesn't work just 'because.'" That's lame DMing. That's a DMing made of Pure Fail. If you resort to what I call TGCM (Ta Gueule, C'est Magique, in English: Shut Up, It's Magic), then you are prepping inappropriately.

Now you can tell me "I don't like high level play" and it's fine. But for those that do like it, as I do, the game isn't 'broken' and doesn't 'fall apart' the way you guys experience it. You are projecting your own issues and your own preferences (which is to NOT play a high level game how it's supposed to be played because "it's too much work, it's a different game than low levels, it's not appealing to my group, etc etc") onto high level games to conclude 'they don't work'. Wrong. They work for me. They can work for you too, with the proper mindset. And it's cool if you don't want to play that way. But don't tell me the game as a whole breaks down for everyone everywhere, objectively. It doesn't. Not for me. It hasn't for the past thirty years.

The spell denial I refer to is anti magic areas, creatures immune to magic, anything that denies magic but is disgused as a reasonable element of the setting.

Your example of the divine overlord is denying the players their scrying and their teleport. Which is my point.

The scrying effectively denied because the overlord knows they are doing it.
The teleport effectively denied by armies of hell intercepting them if they teleport.

What you are actually doing, is the same as "You fail because"
You are hiding it better, but its the same thing.

Now, you and I might be clever enough to not say the actual words "You fail, just cause" but its the same thing.

Quote from: The Butcher;564894Excluded middle again. Taking exception at one single spell, or even at half a dozen spells, is not the same as rejecting the entirety of high-level play.

There's plenty of epic stuff left for everyone to do if you remove or nerf a few high-level spells.

Well said. I can't speak for everyone, but I enjoy high level play right up until it becomes unfun.

I certainly never said I don't like high level play.

Overly effective spells and magic items are what detract from high level play, In my opinion.