Quote from: Piestrio;564460Generally they mean the spells don't work within their "plot".

This. And the perception that if the PCs don't spend 4-5 rounds slogging it out with My Precious Encounter(TM) that something has gone wrong.

But, on the flip-side, I do think there's a problem when the combat system gets reduced to, "Who fails their save vs. death first?" And it becomes even more problematic if you get to the point where it's reduced to, "Who rolls a natural 1 first?"

And there are other, meaningful structural problems that do emerge as PCs gain the ability to control the number of encounters they face per day.

In actual practice, however, I've never had a game fall apart due to these issues because by the time we reach the levels at which these become legitimate issues the characters have usually become deeply enmeshed in aspects of the campaign world that can't be boiled down to combat encounters.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;564674Forcecage is a good example of a spell that fundamentally changes the game, in my mind.  If your players have access to Forcecage, any opponent either needs to have a counter for it, or will be defeated by it. There really is no middle ground. If every opponent has a counter, that's not fun or fair. If no opponent has a counter, that's not fun, either. A spell like that is a problem because it then becomes a consideration for EVERYTHING that comes after. The DM then needs to decide whether it's reasonable for every encounter to have that counter...

This is a good example of the My Precious Encounter(TM) problem. And I point that out because it's a subtle example that I don't think many people realize is happening.

Forcecage is a 7th-level spell, so 14th level casters pick it up. It can be casually defeated by either dispel magic, teleporting, or astral travel.

The list of CR 14 creatures from the 3.5 MM is: trumpet archon, astral deva, nalfeshnee, nightwing, truly horrid umber hulk, werewolf lord, marut, and vampire half-elf. Of these creatures the trumpet archon, astral deva, nalfeshnee, nightwing, and marut automatically possess a casual defense against forcecage. That leaves the truly horrid umber hulk, werewolf lord, and the vampire half-elf vulnerable (although the vampire can use gaseous form to escape the barred version of the spell).

My point here is that even if your encounters are limited to solo face-offs with level-appropriate creatures (one of the worst methodologies to use for encounter design), a simple random selection of level-appropriate opponents will create a mixture of "can be defeated by forcecage" and "can't be defeated by forcecage" encounters. The DM doesn't really need to think about it at all.

So forcecage only becomes a problem if you believe that wizards using their spells to win encounters is a problem. Which is what brings us back to the "it's interfering with my plot" and "it's messing up My Precious Encounter(TM)".

When it comes to D&D, I think it's really, really important that DMs don't feel cheated by player success. Particularly player success at the encounter level. The game just fundamentally does not work if you think that wiping out an entire encounter with a fireball is a problem.

(Note, too, that forcecage is really only an automatic win against opponents who are nothing except melee brutes. Against other opponents it either only delays the encounter or is almost totally irrelevant to their effectiveness in combat. But for the purposes of the above discussion I've assumed that it actually was an auto-win button unless you have a specific counter.)

Quote from: Bill;564788Why is searching for a lost child (could be anywhere) somehow unworthy of a high level party?

Because it's a trivial task for characters with those power levels. It's like asking why adventures that work for Batman don't work for Superman.

Every argument you've made boils down to "I don't think playing Superman is fun". OK. Fine. But that's why Benoist is saying high-level D&D isn't for you and you should look at something like E(X) in order to keep the game at the power level you're comfortable with.

Quote from: The Butcher;564904I never wrote any of this. I thought IMHO, YMMV, etc. were implicit. I made it abundantly clear that it's my personal preference that one particular spell be toned down. Why the fuck are you quoting me on that post?

So we do agree this issue you have with high level game play (or certain high level spells and abilities) comes down to your own preferences and is not an issue of the game's design itself. We've got no beef from there you and I.

Quote from: Benoist;564906So we do agree this issue you have with high level game play (or certain high level spells and abilities) comes down to your own preferences and is not an issue of the game's design itself. We've got no beef from there you and I.

Well apart from Wish obviously

Quote from: Justin Alexander;564905Because it's a trivial task for characters with those power levels. It's like asking why adventures that work for Batman don't work for Superman.

Every argument you've made boils down to "I don't think playing Superman is fun". OK. Fine. But that's why Benoist is saying high-level D&D isn't for you and you should look at something like E(X) in order to keep the game at the power level you're comfortable with.

Yes. That's what I'm saying. Basically I am saying it's cool for people to enjoy low level game play and not high level, but that's not an issue with the game's design. It's an issue with personal preferences and not wanting the feel of the game to change from that comfort zone. Either house rule the game heavily, or search for a different game system (RuneQuest comes to my mind, but that's just one example amongst zillions of others) that delivers that low level, gritty feel throughout the campaign. Just don't blame the game's design for it.

Quote from: Benoist;564891Sure you might teleport or plane shift there. Then you'll have an army of this hell's denizens waiting for you, aware of the ruptures caused to the planes as they are themselves ripping through its fabric to call their brothers and sisters to their help. Assuming you miraculously get there and don't get slammed by dimensional anchors to then escape the tower right back, you are going to be hounded down not only by this hell's denizens who surely will want the Runechild right back, but also by their mortal servants, spellcasters and clerics themselves, who will be contacted by their overlords and will use their own crystal balls to locate you.

Where were these guys when you were level 10?  Or level 5?  Or level 3?  Or level 1?  Why didn't they kill you when you first showed your competence?  Or divined that you would thwart their plans later?  

This seems like a situation where the world 'evolves' to stay interesting to the PCs.  That itself doesn't work for whole bunches of campaigns...  

But even if it does (and it is sort of the default for the D&D milieu) it sounds a little like 'rocket tag'.  The wizards and clerics have spells that matter and the rogues and fighters are basically relegated to insignificance.  Obviously that's a whole other 3000+ post topic, but don't forget that it's there.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;564905This is a good example of the My Precious Encounter(TM) problem. And I point that out because it's a subtle example that I don't think many people realize is happening.

Forcecage is a 7th-level spell, so 14th level casters pick it up. It can be casually defeated by either dispel magic, teleporting, or astral travel.

No.  No it can't.  Dispel Magic does not work on Forcecage.  Disintegrate and Teleport can bypass it.  But not Dispel Magic, and that's a pretty big 'but'.  

Quote from: Justin Alexander;564905The list of CR 14 creatures from the 3.5 MM is: trumpet archon, astral deva, nalfeshnee, nightwing, truly horrid umber hulk, werewolf lord, marut, and vampire half-elf. Of these creatures the trumpet archon, astral deva, nalfeshnee, nightwing, and marut automatically possess a casual defense against forcecage. That leaves the truly horrid umber hulk, werewolf lord, and the vampire half-elf vulnerable (although the vampire can use gaseous form to escape the barred version of the spell).

Let's revisit the list.  The Trumpet Archon,Astral Deva and Nightwing can Plane Shift away, but they're not coming back.  Best case, they're back the next day after a long walk.  The Nalfeshee is fine - greater teleport at will, as is the Marut with dimension door.  And of course, that's only the MM1.  

That doesn't cover 14th level Fighters or other non-casting classes.  Or any number of things that don't have casual magic.  

It's not a problem if the players don't want to be challenged.  But if the players enjoy being challenged, and Force Cage eliminates too many challenges, that can be a problem.  Not for everyone, but it certainly changes the game in my mind.

Quote from: jibbajibba;564908Well apart from Wish obviously

I have no problem dealing with Wish in my games.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;564916Where were these guys when you were level 10?  Or level 5?  Or level 3?  Or level 1?  Why didn't they kill you when you first showed your competence?  Or divined that you would thwart their plans later?  

This seems like a situation where the world 'evolves' to stay interesting to the PCs.  That itself doesn't work for whole bunches of campaigns...

It isn't. They didn't care for you at level 1 for the same reason they didn't care for the other thousand level 1 roaming the countryside playing tombrobbers to strike it rich: because you were beneath their notice. You were a shitstain on their boots. Then gradually, lieutenants and underlings might become aware of you and deal with it in the same way they deal with minor threats and obstacles: on their own, since they don't want to be fingered of death by their patron for running to them everytime a local village hero creates trouble for them, which makes them look incompetent and worthy of punishment in the eyes of an Evil Overlord. And so on.

Have you ever played an actual D&D campaign, or is all that stuff new to you?

Quote from: jibbajibba;564908Well apart from Wish obviously

Meh, Wish is more problem then it's worth in my opinion. I don't allow for composing a note or any of that stuff. You get a limited amount of time and whatever you say WILL come true. But really like wishes with genies they always seem to have a way of screwing with you in the end if you're being selfish or purposely trying to break the game. Remember there are other people at the table it isn't a single player video game.

Your all forgetting the real reason Wish exists in D&D: It's the only thing that stops the bloody tarrasque coming back again! so yeah i'd say thats a good enough reason why its fine as written

Quote from: Benoist;564921I have no problem dealing with Wish in my games.

Do you impose the DMG limits on it?

My point is that once you do that its not a wish it's a Benoists Benevolent Bounty or some such.

If a 9th level wish isn't as powerful as a Strength spell + Permanency, if its not as powerful as a raise dead, and can't kill someone over 10HD then why call it a wish just remove the spell or leave it in the domain of Beings of extraordinary Power, djini, effreti, gods, giant fish and Jessica Alba (just cos there are a bunch of my wishes she is easily able to grant).

Quote from: jibbajibba;564931Do you impose the DMG limits on it?

My point is that once you do that its not a wish it's a Benoists Benevolent Bounty or some such.

A Wish spell is a very powerful spell that modifies the fabric of the multiverse to grant you what you want. The way the multiverse bends and rearranges itself to fulfill your wish is not something you can entirely predict, and always comes with unpredictible complications.

You should not wish left and right as if this spell didn't carry its own lot of consequences. There are consquences to wishes. Always.

In metagame terms, using wish to boost your character inappropriately and basically just reach for silly bullshit to make you more powerful is a sure way for the spell to backfire big time. Wish is an adventure starter. It's basically that spell that you use when you have tried everything to reach an objective, and finally decide that you want to get that objective fulfilled enough that you will deal with all the negative consequences (and therefore, adventures) that come out of the fulfillment of said wish. Not before.

It's not an "I win" button. FAR from it.

Quote from: Benoist;564934A Wish spell is a very powerful spell that modifies the fabric of the multiverse to grant you what you want. The way the multiverse bends and rearranges itself to fulfill your wish is not something you can entirely predict, and always comes with unpredictible complications.

You should not wish left and right as if this spell didn't carry its own lot of consequences. There are consquences to wishes. Always.

In metagame terms, using wish to boost your character inappropriately and basically just reach for silly bullshit to make you more powerful is a sure way for the spell to backfire big time. Wish is an adventure starter. It's basically that spell that you use when you have tried everything to reach an objective, and finally decide that you want to get that objective fulfilled enough that you will deal with all the negative consequences (and therefore, adventures) that come out of the fulfillment of said wish. Not before.

It's not an "I win" button. FAR from it.

So do you impose the DMG limits ?

Why are there consequences? the implication is that you are tapping into some essence that is actually granting the wish that there is some overarching cost? Why? No similar cost from casting a Meteor Storm? Similar cost in casting a timestop? any other 9th level spell?

Why is asking for strength or wisdom reaching for silly bullshit?
If you had 3 wishes now in the real world what would you actually wish for ? 10 more wishes please ? World peace? A fat sausage, a tiny son the size of your thumb?  Ultimate Cosmic Power?

It's not an I win button if the DM decides its not. But if its not why include it?

I have no problem with wish I just don't allow it. No problem.

Quote from: jibbajibba;564942Why is asking for strength or wisdom reaching for silly bullshit?

Solomon really was a powergaming asshole wasn't he.

Quote from: jibbajibba;564942It's not an I win button if the DM decides its not. But if its not why include it?

I think my post is extremely clear that wish does carry consequences in the game. Whether you choose to use it and accept unforeseen consequence or prefer to not use it is up to you. You just know before hand that there is no such think as a free wish, unless it is a fairly minor use of a wish (i.e. the uses listed in the spell description, or specific uses to raise your ability scores as described in the DMG, etc.).

Yes, the interpretation of a wish is ultimately up to me, the DM. If you're not comfortable with me making judgment calls and actually role playing the environment (which includes the fabric of the multiverse) as it reacts to your input (such as the use of a wish spell), you can always run your own games.

Quote from: jibbajibba;564942I have no problem with wish I just don't allow it. No problem.

And I do include it and let the players decide whether they want to use it or not, at their own convenience.

No problem.