Ayup. If finding a child in the woods is supposed to be a challenge for a high level party what the hell were these dweebs doing at 1st level, learning to tie their shoes?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;564783Ayup. If finding a child in the woods is supposed to be a challenge for a high level party what the hell were these dweebs doing at 1st level, learning to tie their shoes?

Why is searching for a lost child (could be anywhere) somehow unworthy of a high level party?

Quote from: Benoist;564771OK I completely agree with the others and that ties into what Bill was saying about searching for a child and spells solving these kinds of issues casually. That's actually the key point. And I agree.

You guys actually don't want to play high level D&D.

It's not that it's unplayable or unmanageable or broken or whatnot. It's just that you don't want to play a different game than Low-Level D&D. And yes, the campaign does, or is supposed to, change scope in steps as the PCs progress in levels, to the point that they are dealing with completely different types of challenges at mid-high level than they would at low level. If you are still trying to run a high level party through the lost-child-in-the-woods hook, then you're failing at basic prep for the DM of high level parties, because these issues are indeed trivial for PCs at this level range.

So. It's not so much a question of spells being "broken" or the game "breaking down"... that is total fucking bullshit. What is unquestionable, however, is when you guys say "I want to play low level D&D, and the game changes at high level and I don't like what it is"... then... fine. You want to play Red Box on and on, basically. That's cool. Doesn't make the game unplayable for those who actually LIKE to play high level games and don't feel like they're overwhelmed by wishes and teleports, thank you very much.

Who is overwealmed? Wish and teleport are easy to handle.

It's the effect on the game, of the high level spells that I find unfun.

I have run many a high level dnd game, and they typically end up Planar.

My issue has nothing at all to do with ability to run a game.

So Benoist, how do you keep your high level games fun?

I am not so arrogant that I will not ask for your advice.

Quote from: Bill;564788Why is searching for a lost child (could be anywhere) somehow unworthy of a high level party?

I specifically mentioned "the woods".

'Anywhere' opens up a lot more possibilities such as other planes,alternate realities, and far distant realms.

Quote from: Benoist;564771OK I completely agree with the others and that ties into what Bill was saying about searching for a child and spells solving these kinds of issues casually. That's actually the key point. And I agree.

You guys actually don't want to play high level D&D.

It's not that it's unplayable or unmanageable or broken or whatnot. It's just that you don't want to play a different game than Low-Level D&D. And yes, the campaign does, or is supposed to, change scope in steps as the PCs progress in levels, to the point that they are dealing with completely different types of challenges at mid-high level than they would at low level. If you are still trying to run a high level party through the lost-child-in-the-woods hook, then you're failing at basic prep for the DM of high level parties, because these issues are indeed trivial for PCs at this level range.

So. It's not so much a question of spells being "broken" or the game "breaking down"... that is total fucking bullshit. What is unquestionable, however, is when you guys say "I want to play low level D&D, and the game changes at high level and I don't like what it is"... then... fine. You want to play Red Box on and on, basically. That's cool. Doesn't make the game unplayable for those who actually LIKE to play high level games and don't feel like they're overwhelmed by wishes and teleports, thank you very much.

Did you miss my example of 'All elves removed from the world and imprisoned in Archeron' ? The child was one example. Not that a child lost among the planes is the same as child lost in the local woods

What are the challenges that you think are fit for a high level party?

Impersonate an Emperer?
Trivial.
Scry, true seeing, etherealness, improved invisibility, teleport, esp, alterself , etc...etc...

I will not use an example of "Conquer a nation" as that is a bunch of smaller tasks, each of which is trivial. Assasinate a leader, frame a contender, lead an army astray, all are trivial with high level magic.

Again...the only obstacle is 'Your magic fails'

Quote from: Exploderwizard;564801I specifically mentioned "the woods".

'Anywhere' opens up a lot more possibilities such as other planes,alternate realities, and far distant realms.

No problem; I never said woods myself. Unless I am losing my mind, anyway.

Quote from: Bill;564804Did you miss my example of 'All elves removed from the world and imprisoned in Archeron' ? The child was one example. Not that a child lost among the planes is the same as child lost in the local woods

What are the challenges that you think are fit for a high level party?

Impersonate an Emperer?
Trivial.
Scry, true seeing, etherealness, improved invisibility, teleport, esp, alterself , etc...etc...

I will not use an example of "Conquer a nation" as that is a bunch of smaller tasks, each of which is trivial. Assasinate a leader, frame a contender, lead an army astray, all are trivial with high level magic.

Again...the only obstacle is 'Your magic fails'

Magic has failed. Something or someone has cut the flow of magic to the prime material plane off like a water spigot. You must find the source of the disruption and remove it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;564810Magic has failed. Something or someone has cut the flow of magic to the prime material plane off like a water spigot. You must find the source of the disruption and remove it.

Sure! That would be a great plot for one adventure.

But I was complaining about how a dm denying the players magic is lame, especially if it happens often.

Notice that this challenge requires magic to be useless....

In 3rd Edition, Mordenkainen's Disjunction is a notorious spell because it can permanently rob the magic power out of multiple items.  A PC uses it on a monster decked out in gear, and he'll be kicking himself when he realizes he just made a bunch of expensive loot worthless.  An enemy uses it on a PC, and all that time and effort and money he spent on getting magical gear is gone like that in a flash.

In my mind, it's a simple question of number of options.  As the number of options available to the party approaches infinity, the number of 'challenges' approaches zero.  That is, there is an inverse relationship between the number of 'tools' available to the party and the number of problems that cannot be solved by those available tools.  

Since:
1) magic's limits aren't very well defined
2) numerous supplements provide additional spell options (Dragon, splat books, 3rd party, homebrew, etc), many of which are keyed to particular 'problems' (for example, desert travel)
3) wizards are expected to be able to create 'unique' spells that serve their specific purposes

it's not hard to end up in a situation where a wizard can 'solve' a problem by using a specific spell.  Knock 'solves' locked doors.  Teleport 'solves' virtually every get from Point A to Point B problem.  A wizard might not have the right 'solution' to every problem, especially if it is unexpected.  But a wizard can LIKELY develop a solution for any problem given enough time - sometimes even just one day to prepare the right spells.  Assuming that the world isn't in danger every week and/or that the lich king who has been plotting for the last 3,000 years doesn't launch the final stage of his plan in the next 24 hours, there are lots of 'realistic' reasons that a party can delay until the wizard can solve the problem.  

Not everyone will do that, but at a certain point the ability for magic to 'solve' all problems can make 'challenges' less fulfilling than they ought to be.  Many DMs try to keep the game fun by 'challenging' the wizard - things like having a time limit so the wizard has to push on and/or conserve spells can work - but not all the time.  Not every adventure can reasonably be a 'race against the clock'.  Nor can every adventure reasonably be against a 'magic-immune enemy' or take place within a 'null-magic' zone.  

A DM, even a good one, can end up in a situation where either the Wizard is useless or the rest of the party is unnecessary.  For myself, I prefer a game where everyone can contribute relatively equally...  Sometimes the Wizard 'wins the day' and sometimes the 'rogue' wins the day, but if it's always just the wizard or just the party (sans wizard), the game suffers.  

Creating a challenge that can be best 'solved' by a class other than Wizard is difficult.  Creating a challenge that can EXCLUSIVELY be solved by a wizard is trivial.  That's a direct result of making magic the exclusive domain of a few...  That's a flavor that has a lot of traction, but there are some natural results that aren't always pleasant for some players - particularly at high level.

Quote from: Libertad;564813In 3rd Edition, Mordenkainen's Disjunction is a notorious spell because it can permanently rob the magic power out of multiple items.  A PC uses it on a monster decked out in gear, and he'll be kicking himself when he realizes he just made a bunch of expensive loot worthless.  An enemy uses it on a PC, and all that time and effort and money he spent on getting magical gear is gone like that in a flash.

Certainly that's true, but most players don't think having their 'cool magic stuff' destroyed is 'fun'.  So let's put that one on the 'problem' spell list.  

But even if your players are 'cool' with it, what's unfortunate is that it negatively impacts the non-magical classes most.  After a disjunction, the next day the cleric can be pretty awesome.  +4 to a few stats with bull's strength and such; have a magical weapon with greater magic weapon, and a variety of other useful spells that other classes might rely on their magic items to provide.  

The 'lower' the magic-level of a given setting, the more problematic wizards (and other spell casters) as written become.  Making a 'low-magic' version of a D&D wizard is...problematic, to say the least.  And of course, D&D expects a certain amount of 'magical healing' - without it, the rest of the game breaks down pretty quickly.

Quote from: Bill;564804Did you miss my example of 'All elves removed from the world and imprisoned in Archeron' ? The child was one example. Not that a child lost among the planes is the same as child lost in the local woods

What are the challenges that you think are fit for a high level party?

Impersonate an Emperer?
Trivial.
Scry, true seeing, etherealness, improved invisibility, teleport, esp, alterself , etc...etc...

I will not use an example of "Conquer a nation" as that is a bunch of smaller tasks, each of which is trivial. Assasinate a leader, frame a contender, lead an army astray, all are trivial with high level magic.

Again...the only obstacle is 'Your magic fails'

For my high level wizard games the usual challenge was render all the opostion nuetered and suppass the other PC wizards and never having to cast an actual spell.

Quote from: Bill;564788Why is searching for a lost child (could be anywhere) somehow unworthy of a high level party?

Because that's not the kind of mundane threats the high level party is supposed to face. It's not a problem for beings that are quasi-mythical, unless of course other quasi-mythical beings, including maybe the child himself, are involved. And THEN, well, the adventure becomes a whole 'nother kettle of fish, and involves different kinds of opponents, caveats, problems which are not necessarily solved with just a crystal ball and a teleport spell...

Quote from: jibbajibba;564819For my high level wizard games the usual challenge was render all the opostion nuetered and suppass the other PC wizards and never having to cast an actual spell.

That sounds interesting, but most players I know would want their high level wizards to cast spells...lots of them.

Quote from: Benoist;564822Because that's not the kind of mundane threats the high level party is supposed to face. It's not a problem for beings that are quasi-mythical, unless of course other quasi-mythical beings, including maybe the child himself, are involved. And THEN, well, the adventure becomes a whole 'nother kettle of fish, and involves different kinds of opponents, caveats, problems which are not necessarily solved with just a crystal ball and a teleport spell...

Depends on the nature of the child, the circumstances. But regardless....

Why can't you solve those problems with a crystal ball and teleport?