Quote from: beejazz;564505Rules being "broken" come in a variety of flavors. On the spells side of things, it becomes hard to imagine challenges to a group that can bypass a lot by way of magic (walls, social encounters, things like that). Sure they can't do everything they want in a given day, but it's hard to know what they will do until after they've prepped spells.

You know I don't get along with with hyperboles like "broken" and so on. That's why I ridicule them so much. Your post actually makes sense, sounds reasonable, and doesn't fall into that trap, and I got to command you for that because, well. It becomes all too rare, to be honest.

Now. You aren't supposed to plan according to the spells the PCs prep. You aren't supposed to "modify the script" to fit what they plan. You prepared your world and your elements, NPCs, factions, conspiracies collided with the PCs going about their adventuring business... and that's it. If they outsmart the defenses of the bad guys, if they are truly creative, if they totally go for the unexpected and fuck all you thought they would do... totally GO FOR IT. Roll with it. That's the essence of what being a great DM is. And then, you get to LOVE this shit. You come to love it when the players go totally a-wall and surprise you totally. It gets the campaign going in directions you would have NEVER foreseen... and THAT'S WHAT'S SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. It's awesome! Just play with it! Embrace it. Go for it.

Quote from: beejazz;564505Personally I've had issues with sanctuary in 3.5. Party fled except the cleric, kidnapped an NPC (I didn't expect it, but was able to roll with that bit). Cleric hung around and cast sanctuary and suddenly nobody could attack anybody (clever use of a spell that granted concealment made the escape a sure thing, so no pursuing the other guys at this point). So there was the looking up stuff bit and the "what now?" bit. So yeah, game didn't collapse or anything but it fucked with the pace in a big way and didn't really accomplish anything except for that.

As a DM you are supposed to adapt. You roll with it. Stuff like "pace" comes in when you start caring about shit like the game as a narrative you are NOT supposed to care about in the first place. You aren't telling a story. You are acting as the interface for the players to experience the game world directly, Live, as it unfolds before them. When you do this, you just go and roll with the blows and pick up on what they do and what you know and feel of the world and... it gets to awesome places. You got to let go of that bullshit and embrace the unexpected. That's the stuff of great campaigns my friend.

Quote from: The Butcher;564512Yes, and I can (and do) houserule polymorph others into a sane spell when I run D&D. I don't see the point you're trying to make, Ben.

You really, really don't see the point I'm trying to make? Come on, Gus.

Quote from: The Butcher;564490You're probably thinking of polymorph self; polymorph others is typically used against a foe -- you get to run princes into frogs. Not a talking frog, or even a thinking frog. A fucking frog. Effect permanent until dispelled.

Nope, I'm thinking of OD&D Polymorph Others. The description in Men & Magic mentions "The spell gives all characteristics of the form of the creature", and specifically mentions that it doesn't change the mental or supernatural abilities of the victim. So a prince polymorphed into a frog can certainly still think , probably even speak, although perhaps he would be very difficult to understand, since he would have the vocal abilities of a frog. If polymorphed into a slug, speech would be out of the question.

It also strongly implies that polymorphed victims retain any non-biological or non-physical abilities, so trolls still regenerate, pixies can still become invisible.

The spells we've had the most problems with are those that slow the game way down.  Usually, because they involve a player running a bunch of calculations and adjustments.  These tend to include stuff that messes with time that gives more actions than the players are used to dealing with in a single round, and stuff that alters their character in unfamiliar ways.  These spells don't break the game, they just make it more boring for everyone, and unduly complicated.

I did notice that the original Confusion spell is really complicated to run. For each target:

• Make a saving throw;
• Roll turns of delay for each target that fails;
• Roll for the effect of the spell in that round only;
  
• On every round thereafter, make another saving throw and effect roll.

That's a lot of die rolling...

Quote from: Benoist;564532You know I don't get along with with hyperboles like "broken" and so on. That's why I ridicule them so much. Your post actually makes sense, sounds reasonable, and doesn't fall into that trap, and I got to command you for that because, well. It becomes all too rare, to be honest.

Thanks. I avoid hyperbole when I can, since I feel it's not usually helpful online.

QuoteNow. You aren't supposed to plan according to the spells the PCs prep. You aren't supposed to "modify the script" to fit what they plan. You prepared your world and your elements, NPCs, factions, conspiracies collided with the PCs going about their adventuring business... and that's it. If they outsmart the defenses of the bad guys, if they are truly creative, if they totally go for the unexpected and fuck all you thought they would do... totally GO FOR IT. Roll with it. That's the essence of what being a great DM is. And then, you get to LOVE this shit. You come to love it when the players go totally a-wall and surprise you totally. It gets the campaign going in directions you would have NEVER foreseen... and THAT'S WHAT'S SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. It's awesome! Just play with it! Embrace it. Go for it.

See, I'm more talking about how stock locations/NPCs/situations that typically help when things go "off rails" (which I agree are the best moments, and why I typically avoid the rails altogether) get a little harder to prep when you're not sure if walls are impassable barriers or just barriers to vision. Or whether NPC law enforcement has any clout vs whether they are minions waiting to happen through enchantment and necromancy. I know some DMs can handle it, and that excising these things (the 4e route) would be losing something valuable, but for some there's a sudden jump in the skill required to run the game. And I think that's why the allow/disallow lists are some of the most common houserules.

QuoteAs a DM you are supposed to adapt. You roll with it. Stuff like "pace" comes in when you start caring about shit like the game as a narrative you are NOT supposed to care about in the first place. You aren't telling a story. You are acting as the interface for the players to experience the game world directly, Live, as it unfolds before them. When you do this, you just go and roll with the blows and pick up on what they do and what you know and feel of the world and... it gets to awesome places. You got to let go of that bullshit and embrace the unexpected. That's the stuff of great campaigns my friend.

I was thinking pace in the game sense.

Quote from: Marleycat;564511The problem really isn't the spells themselves it's that in Dnd they are too reliable and safe.  Dnd could really shake things up if they did something like DCC or hundreds of other awesome games and put risk in spells. Wild Magic is a small step in the right direction,  cylindrical magic another, especially if it's a bit less trackable than Dragonlance.

That is a great point. I recently got a chance to play DCC and the way they handle spells seemd very cool. My cleric's magic was failing...he must have angred his god

Quote from: Benoist;564457I honestly don't understand what people are talking about when they say the game falls apart. It's just never happened for me, I've never seen a campaign literally fall apart because of the use of a high level spell, so I really don't know what they mean, or what specific spells they are thinking of when they are posting stuff like this.

Fo me the breakdown is the overall effect of high level spells making anything the charcaters need to do trivial.

Quote from: Benoist;564496*Shrug* I can TPK the whole group of PCs any time I want to.

Actually you can't, because the players would not enjoy the game if they felt you were executing them.

Quote from: Bill;564547Actually you can't, because the players would not enjoy the game if they felt you were executing them.

That's horseshit. I completely can, as in, "it is in the realm of possibilities". Sure, there would be consequences to such an act, and it might not be advisable to do so "just because", but the fact remains - no matter what the players do, I can outgun them. So. The notion that the GM loses control of the game because a PC can do something big, or unpredictable, is basically a bunch of bullshit. You're the GM. You're supposed to welcome this stuff and embrace it.

Which brings me back to the spells and their effects. It's okay if the PCs teleport to the lair of the bad guys. It's okay if they can polymorph one target into a chicken, or polymorph themselves into black pudding or an ogre. It's okay if they can find the path or whatever the hell else you might think of. Just play the natural consequences of their actions. Find out the complications which surely will arise from the nature and particular dynamics of the milieu you devised before hand.

It's okay for the PCs to do things that go boom, that go big, that succeed without freaking out at every turn that the game is going to shit and whatnot. It's a game of your imagination. Use it.

The only spell I can think of that's "problematic" in 1E is insect swarm.

3.5

Spells which actually make playing the game unfun if used/used in any obviously good way:

Lesser/Regular/Greater Planar Binding
Gate
Wish (because it's really easy to avoid the XP cost, and then wish for any stupid item in the game).
Dread Warrior

Spells which fundamentally change the nature of the game to be very different:

Animate Dead
Charm/Dominate Person/Animal/Monster
Control Undead.
Anything else that gives a permanent minion.

Polymorph Other (taking 1e version) is fine as a 1-shot kill that allows a save IMO; if you have actually taken the months of play needed to get an M-U 1 up to M-U 7 then you deserve that kind of power.

But it is broken as a spell that lets you turn all your level 0 mook followers into dragons, as per the example in the PHB.  Polymorp Other to frog or pig is fine but I'm not allowing Polymorph Other to Red Dragon, Gold Dragon etc.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;564527Whatever. Most of the problem spells you find in D&D (not just your pet hate here, most of them) make a lot more sense if you realize that they're there for NPC use for setting and adventure construction and so on primarily - higher level PCs just happen to be raiding the toolbox since they use the same rules.

That is a odd take on it.
I would have thought very few high level spells could be used for setting type stuff.

I picked on Wish because its a pointless spell. I can't wish to be as strong as a Storm Giant because the rules specifically limit it for gamist reasons.
Yes its annoying when the Wizard says 'I wish Orcus was dead' or 'I wish i had all 7 of the shards of Magicisac right here in my hands now' and you have to work out a new game but you allowed the power. Nerfing it to say ah you can only kill a being of 10HD or less with a wish, or wish doesn't affect these items because thye are hidden by a cloak of plot immunity, mans that the wish spell is broken.

Of course the most broken spell in D&D is not high level at all. Command 1st level clerical spell.

No save if you have less than 6 HD/Levels or less than 13 Int.
Pretty hot for a 1st level spell. Death no save for the a large swathe of opponents, but even better when you consider its flexibility as you can use any verb.