Quote from: Exploderwizard;565163Some of the most fun antagonists in our campaigns are classed NPCs that are around the PC's level or higher. Being really powerful means that the opposition will at times also be very powerful.

The slave lords from the A series are a good example. These are NPCs with the same kinds of magic and abilities as the PCs and as such make great villains.

Opponents like these can be the most fun for the players because they have a good idea of the kinds of things they are capable of, the NPCs likewise with regard to the PCs, and the struggle is decided by who can be more clever with their resources.

the best opponents for high level players are other high level players.

Quote from: S'mon;565172Just looking through my new copy of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, and my heart sunk when I saw True Resurrection still there, copied over from 3e. Incredibly stupid spell - apparently it brings back anyone to life, no body needed, but doesn't bother saying where they come back to life - there is no range. It's potentially game-breaking and just really badly designed; makes me just want to ban all 9th level spells. I recall arguably even worse stuff in 3e splatbooks, like the 9th level spell in PHB2 that lets a caster snap his fingers and get a free iron golem for several hours/day - not even any component cost - when creating the equivalent golem would cost a fortune.

A spell like True ressurection can be interesting. Some of the things I might do if a player used it:

Accidentally ressurects many powerful dead people at the same time.

The God of Death demands a task in exchange...after the person is brought back. Life for a life, perhaps?

The ressurected person is really a Devil.

The spell only works if another willing life is sacraficed. Harsh.



Run with it, and it will turn into an adventure of its own.

Flight, Teleport, Plane Shift, Fabricate, Divination, Call Planar Ally/Servant.

Quote from: 1of3;565189Flight, Teleport, Plane Shift, Fabricate, Divination, Call Planar Ally/Servant.

All of these spells I like alot, and they have their limits.

Flight is not permanent.

Teleport can go wrong if the spell is miscast, there is a new ward in place to protect the area being teleported to, or if there is some change in the physical layout of the destination from the time the caster originally saw or visualized it. Teleport without error is a spell that does not exist in my game (At least no one has invented it or found a copy in my 35 years as a GM.)

Fabricate. Useful, but time consuming.

Divination. One of my personal favorites. "it is, seeing just a portion of one possible future of many...)

Call Planar Ally/Servant. Just a more powerful summoning spell. Presumeably the Planar Ally/Servant has plenty of other business to attend to and will only have a limited amount of time to help.... or, The Planar Ally/Servant remains for a long duration, but also tries to influence events so that events unfold in a manner favorable for other allies of the Planar Ally/Servant. (Whether or not this is also favorable to the players over the long term is open to interpretation).

Another really powerful spell is Scrying. In the right hands it allows the players to gain knowledge and coupled with other spells exert influence over a wide geographical area.

Quote from: Piestrio;564460Generally they mean the spells don't work within their "plot".

Customize with house rules or live with the implications has been my philosophy. I agree with one of Lord Vreeg's observations where the campaign setting will eventually match the rules used to run it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;565178the best opponents for high level players are other high level players.

And conversely the best "magic item"  a high level character can have is another high level character.

My issue was less the rules, or their level of brokenness or not, but that fact that the magic system so included actially shrunk the type of games the system really represented with any fidelity whatsoever.  And I tend towards, long, deep campaigns.

If High level magic and high level spells exsted, pretty much every country would end up a mageocracy or theocracy.  I mean, you can fudge around it, or work out population of casters and clerics to be vastly reduced (which I finally had to do, every time), but many of the more powerful spells actually break the setting, not the game.

I don't think there's any problem with high-level spells. Just the exact same need to adjust for them as there is with low-level spells. Complaining about Wish isn't much difference than complaining that the Invisibility spell means characters can easily sneak past npc guards; its just a higher scale of events.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;565964I don't think there's any problem with high-level spells. Just the exact same need to adjust for them as there is with low-level spells. Complaining about Wish isn't much difference than complaining that the Invisibility spell means characters can easily sneak past npc guards; its just a higher scale of events.

RPGPundit

While I agree with that, as character levels increase, you have bucketloads of those spells instead of a handfull.

But low level spells like Sleep, Command, Hold person, Invisibility, Colorsparay, charm person, Phantasmal force, etc...sure can be effective in clever hands.

Quote from: RPGPundit;565964I don't think there's any problem with high-level spells. Just the exact same need to adjust for them as there is with low-level spells. Complaining about Wish isn't much difference than complaining that the Invisibility spell means characters can easily sneak past npc guards; its just a higher scale of events.

RPGPundit

Yeah, but you can't really counter a wish with a bloodhound. Not as easily anyway.

Quote from: RPGPundit;565964I don't think there's any problem with high-level spells. Just the exact same need to adjust for them as there is with low-level spells. Complaining about Wish isn't much difference than complaining that the Invisibility spell means characters can easily sneak past npc guards; its just a higher scale of events.

Unless you specify a specific version of Wish that is problematic and then a bunch of people who don't understand that version make fun of you for calling it a problem spell because some other version of Wish isn't a problem.

That would be really dumb.

Quote from: RPGPundit;565964I don't think there's any problem with high-level spells. Just the exact same need to adjust for them as there is with low-level spells. Complaining about Wish isn't much difference than complaining that the Invisibility spell means characters can easily sneak past npc guards; its just a higher scale of events.

RPGPundit

Quote from: beejazz;566011Yeah, but you can't really counter a wish with a bloodhound. Not as easily anyway.

I can.

YOU (as GM): You see the evil archimage hold up his magic lamp...

ME: I throw my bloodhound at him!

Are we talking a regular bloodhound here, or some kind of monster with a 4e-style naming convention: the BloodHound (probably from the ShadowDark or something)?

RPGPundit

Quote from: deadDMwalking;564916Where were these guys when you were level 10?  Or level 5?  Or level 3?  Or level 1?  Why didn't they kill you when you first showed your competence?

Why doesn't Barak Obama run for city councilman and crush his opponent? Why don't the New England Patriots incorporate as a high school and totally crush their competition? Why doesn't Richard Branson open a street-side lemonade stand and totally crush the efforts of the five year olds trying to operate on that turf?

QuoteNo.  No it can't.  Dispel Magic does not work on Forcecage.

My mistake. Fortunately, it makes no difference to my argument: It turns out none of the CR 14 monsters I listed as being able to bypass forcecage require dispel magic to bypass it.

QuoteBut not Dispel Magic, and that's a pretty big 'but'.

Apparently not as "big" as you think.  

QuoteIt's not a problem if the players don't want to be challenged.

Which brings us back to My Precious Encounter(TM) design. Glad to see you agree with me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;566487Are we talking a regular bloodhound here, or some kind of monster with a 4e-style naming convention: the BloodHound (probably from the ShadowDark or something)?

RPGPundit

I assumed normal bloodhound. First, because it's more interesting to throw an actual bloodhound at someone; second, because FUCK 4e.