So what are they exactly? A lot of people sort of agree that the game "breaks down" after a certain point. What is that point, and what is doing the breaking?

For any edition you care to complain about, including (especially) the ones you actually play.

Bonus: "Fix" the spell (or whatever) in a way that doesn't involve banning it.

Wish is the worst obviously. It's nerfed straight from the off in the AD&D books there is a section on nerfing it. However, the nerfs are quite stupid and gamist, Wish can only increase a state above 16 by 0.1 points for example.
Wish breaks the game so why include it?

Polymorph other is my personal pet peeve. It's only a 4th-level in most editions, but still broken as all hell.

The easiest fix, of course, is to make it temporary, with a minimal chance (say, three failed saves in a row) of permanency, if any.

I'm not sure why Polymorph Others is broken, especially if you're using the early version where it only grants physical abilities and not spell-like powers. And also if you're using the System Shock rule...

I find Wish problematic mostly because I'm old-fashioned and see a wish as a request or demand of a supernatural entity. That entity may be extremely powerful, but it still can't do absolutely anything you can imagine. I fixed Wish by replacing it with two spells: a pact spell that grants the caster the ability to cast other spells at-will to fulfill a contract with another being, and a superpowerful illusion that "fulfills" any wish by trapping the target in a fictional world.

A lot of the spells I have problems with are low-level stuff like Magic Missile, but mainly because they violate my ideas of the spell system. I don't think clerics should have attack spells at all, for example, so Blade Barrier should be an M-U spell. Write, as feeble as it may be, breaks my conception of M-Us adding new spells by spending scads of money. Same with Identify and Legend Lore: I'd just use the magic research rules.

Some of the later stuff, like spells in Unearthed Arcana (1e) bother me, too, but then I don't use later editions anymore, which I supposed counts as an outright ban. I also make all spells of 7th level or higher into scroll-only spells.

I honestly don't understand what people are talking about when they say the game falls apart. It's just never happened for me, I've never seen a campaign literally fall apart because of the use of a high level spell, so I really don't know what they mean, or what specific spells they are thinking of when they are posting stuff like this.

Quote from: Benoist;564457I honestly don't understand what people are talking about when they say the game falls apart. It's just never happened for me, I've never seen a campaign literally fall apart because of the use of a high level spell, so I really don't know what they mean, or what specific spells they are thinking of when they are posting stuff like this.

Generally they mean the spells don't work within their "plot".

Quote from: Piestrio;564460Generally they mean the spells don't work within their "plot".

Yeah see, if that's what they mean, it's no wonder I don't experience it, because I don't run the game with "plots" in mind. If the PCs rip the fabric of the multiverse apart and just burn their wishes on crazy shit, I just roll with it. It's cool. Makes the game all the more fun!

Quote from: talysman;564450I'm not sure why Polymorph Others is broken, especially if you're using the early version where it only grants physical abilities and not spell-like powers. And also if you're using the System Shock rule...

You're probably thinking of polymorph self; polymorph others is typically used against a foe -- you get to run princes into frogs. Not a talking frog, or even a thinking frog. A fucking frog. Effect permanent until dispelled.

You may take some solace in the fact that your hit points remain the same.

The D&D RC (and S&W, C&C and ACKS) version of the spell are permanent if the save fails. The AD&D 1e version has a subsystem for determining the d% chance of permanent change (though the example given doesn't jive with the formula. Typical of 1e, really). Don't know about 2e+.

Too much power for a 7th level character, IMO.

Quote from: The Butcher;564490Too much power for a 7th level character, IMO.

*Shrug* I can TPK the whole group of PCs any time I want to.

Polymorph to turn people into harmless fuzzy creatures is at worst equal to killing them - roll up a new character - except that there's the hope a dispel magic can cancel it. Its pretty awesome as a special effect, but not totally game breaking.

I'm be happy with level it as is since "save the frog prince!" may be a good adventure for low-level PCs. Bump the spell up to L6 or L7 and the BBEG might have to be too high level for them to really have a shot at taking them down.

Quote from: Benoist;564457I honestly don't understand what people are talking about when they say the game falls apart. It's just never happened for me, I've never seen a campaign literally fall apart because of the use of a high level spell, so I really don't know what they mean, or what specific spells they are thinking of when they are posting stuff like this.

Rules being "broken" come in a variety of flavors. On the spells side of things, it becomes hard to imagine challenges to a group that can bypass a lot by way of magic (walls, social encounters, things like that). Sure they can't do everything they want in a given day, but it's hard to know what they will do until after they've prepped spells.

Personally I've had issues with sanctuary in 3.5. Party fled except the cleric, kidnapped an NPC (I didn't expect it, but was able to roll with that bit). Cleric hung around and cast sanctuary and suddenly nobody could attack anybody (clever use of a spell that granted concealment made the escape a sure thing, so no pursuing the other guys at this point). So there was the looking up stuff bit and the "what now?" bit. So yeah, game didn't collapse or anything but it fucked with the pace in a big way and didn't really accomplish anything except for that.

The sheer volume is probably the bigger issue than any one spell, though.

Quote from: beejazz;564425So what are they exactly? A lot of people sort of agree that the game "breaks down" after a certain point. What is that point, and what is doing the breaking?

At a minimum, this depends on the edition and the play style. It can also vary with the power level of the setting. For example, a TSR-era Wish spell could cause trouble in my Hidden Valley setting, but wouldn't be a big problem in my Arn setting.

The problem really isn't the spells themselves it's that in Dnd they are too reliable and safe.  Dnd could really shake things up if they did something like DCC or hundreds of other awesome games and put risk in spells. Wild Magic is a small step in the right direction,  cylindrical magic another, especially if it's a bit less trackable than Dragonlance.

Quote from: Benoist;564496*Shrug* I can TPK the whole group of PCs any time I want to.

Yes, and I can (and do) houserule polymorph others into a sane spell when I run D&D. I don't see the point you're trying to make, Ben.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;564504Polymorph to turn people into harmless fuzzy creatures is at worst equal to killing them - roll up a new character - except that there's the hope a dispel magic can cancel it. Its pretty awesome as a special effect, but not totally game breaking.

I'm be happy with level it as is since "save the frog prince!" may be a good adventure for low-level PCs. Bump the spell up to L6 or L7 and the BBEG might have to be too high level for them to really have a shot at taking them down.

I don't like the idea of 7th-level magic-users having what essentially amounts to a save-or-die spell that can bring down considerably more powerful foes. I don't like the idea of a single 7th level magic-user one-shotting a 16HD dragon even if he does gets the drop on the beast. That's all there is to it. To suggest that this has anything to do with "plot" is the most cretinous of excluded-middle arguments.

Quote from: The Butcher;564512I don't like the idea of 7th-level magic-users having what essentially amounts to a save-or-die spell that can bring down considerably more powerful foes. I don't like the idea of a single 7th level magic-user one-shotting a 16HD dragon even if he does gets the drop on the beast. That's all there is to it. To suggest that this has anything to do with "plot" is the most cretinous of excluded-middle arguments.

Whatever. Most of the problem spells you find in D&D (not just your pet hate here, most of them) make a lot more sense if you realize that they're there for NPC use for setting and adventure construction and so on primarily - higher level PCs just happen to be raiding the toolbox since they use the same rules.