Quote from: Christopher Brady;1056998Fun, what else?  It's about managing the expectations.  Sometimes having five 20s would ruin the tables day, so you settle for three.  It's not an all or nothing proposition, I wish people could realize that.

True this. but Id rather find workarounds rather than by-the-book TPK. So the enemy is rolling hot today. Then why not have them use those great rolls to disarm or otherwise subdue and take hostage the PCs. With those sorts of rolls the enemy has got to be feeling really confident.

and does this imposition of success apply to the PCS as well? If they are rolling too well should not they be docked as well? One can argue where is the fun in being overwhelming?

Other times its best to just let the rolls fall where they may if the situation dictates a no-holds-barred beat down. If you are getting into combat then you are accepting the risk of defeat and death for your PC.

And of course even death might not be the end. A friendly NPC might wander past and raise them. Their bodies have been looted but at least they are alive. and that NPC might have a job or two that will also help them get back up to speed.

All sorts of ways to handle it.

Quote from: Omega;1057130All sorts of ways to handle it.

This is a really great takeaway from this entire discussion.

I've said it before. It's your game, play it how you want. There is no wrong or right way to teach it, just options.

Quote from: Lurtch;1057120Then why have rules or failure at all? Just play pretend like children do.

There's nothing wrong with failure, but sometimes the dice END the game, if read as is.  So you need to keep it going, keep it fun.  Keep the players engaged.  There's nothing wrong with death or failure, but you need to have it mean something to the game, a motivation for the players to keep playing.  And sometimes, that requires a bit of fudging.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1057149There's nothing wrong with failure, but sometimes the dice END the game, if read as is.  So you need to keep it going, keep it fun.  Keep the players engaged.  There's nothing wrong with death or failure, but you need to have it mean something to the game, a motivation for the players to keep playing.  And sometimes, that requires a bit of fudging.

My feeling is that failure in the moment is usually disappointing, but that the possibility of failure is important to a good game. I find that it's much better to stack the odds in favour of the PCs than to stack odds against the PCs then fudge to prevent failure. The chance of failure can be almost arbitrarily small, but it needs to be real.

Quote from: sureshot;1057127Because no one is paying me lots of money

I actually have a life outside of this hobby and I want my rpgs to be a mix of success and failures and again no one is paying me to play misery porn the rpg.

Seriously what the big issue. I never said no failures at the table while playing rpg.

So why aren't you playing a game with a mix of success and failure that is also not misery porn?

If the randomizers lead to unacceptable results, then the randomizer could be improved. "Dice fudging" is just patching bad rules than playing better games / fixing the rules yourself.

Dice fudging goes back decades.  I remember it being recommended in GM advice sections in old Dragon magazines from the 90s.

These days I'll have none of it.  All rolls must be made in the open.  How else do you keep things from getting dysfunctional?  If the players know you fudge rolls they'll suspect they might be failing because they're being railroaded (even if they're not).  If a PC dies, it will be because you killed him (and not because he died).

Lately I've been running Symbaroum, a Swedish game, in which fudging is not possible because the GM never rolls dice at all.  I'm finding it very liberating.  Not only are the rolls in the open but the PCs always know before they roll their chance of success on every roll.

If the referee fudges his rolls why can't players do the same?

Don't like the probability of favor play a game where it isn't there. Sometimes you win the game and sometimes you lose. In any given session there should be plenty of opportunities to to succeed and fail by the dice alone.

Once again I chime in with Beyond the Wall.

Fortune Points: you get 3 per adventure and they give you a reroll.

In okay players almost never continue with 0 of these uber points. THey know that their luck is running out and they start heading for home.

Almost all PC death occurs when they push their luck and don't turn back at 1 FP.

What's cool is that when they die, they knew that they were to blame.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1057216So why aren't you playing a game with a mix of success and failure that is also not misery porn?

If the randomizers lead to unacceptable results, then the randomizer could be improved. "Dice fudging" is just patching bad rules than playing better games / fixing the rules yourself.

Because you and everyone else is not paying me lots of money to do so.

Because your and others are making a huge issue out of something that is not that huge a issue for most tables.

How about getting your head out of your ass  with many others in this thread and accept and dare I say respect others don't play the exact same way that you do at your table.

Quote from: sureshot;1057221Because you and everyone else is not paying me lots of money to do so.

Because your and others are making a huge issue out of something that is not that huge a issue for most tables.

How about getting your head out of your ass  with many others in this thread and accept and dare I say respect others don't play the exact same way that you do at your table.

Idk why you need to be paid money to play RPGs that suit you better.

You didn't list any reason why you are playing RPGs that do not work you and you have to fudge dice just to enjoy them.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1057223Idk why you need to be paid money to play RPGs that suit you better.

I enjoy most rpgs and I don't see the need to do something I don't want to do without get paid to do so. I can play the rpgs that you think suit me better I see no reason to do it for free. And why should if I does not give me advantage to do so. Yes I'm greedy SOB and if you and others want me to do play something pay up or shut up.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1057223You didn't list any reason why you are playing RPGs that do not work you and you have to fudge dice just to enjoy them.

I play them because I like certain aspects of the world in a rpg. I play them for the mechanics even if I don't like some of the mechanics. I play to have fun with my buddies. Mainly I enjoy them. I don't have to like everything about an rpg. I can but again pay me to do.

Almost everyone at one time or another whether they will admit or not has probably fudged dice rolls at the table. Spare me the chorus of " I never did, we never did". as that is probably bullshit. I rarely if ever fudge dice yet if the difference between the last epic battle with the BBEG is a TPK or battle to the finish I choose the battle to the finish. If one prefers the first option go for it. It's not my preference yet I'm also no intolerant of other gamers ways of doing things a their table. Many of you are making a huge issue out of nothing really. Play the way you want. What is it with gamers needing to draw a line in the sand on every issue. No compromises " my way is the one true way". Let me tell you something most gamers don't care. We will just nod and back away and go back to playing rpgs.

Quote from: sureshot;1057224I enjoy most rpgs and I don't see the need to do something I don't want to do without get paid to do so. I can play the rpgs that you think suit me better I see no reason to do it for free. And why should if I does not give me advantage to do so. Yes I'm greedy SOB and if you and others want me to do play something pay up or shut up.



I play them because I like certain aspects of the world in a rpg. I play them for the mechanics even if I don't like some of the mechanics. I play to have fun with my buddies. Mainly I enjoy them. I don't have to like everything about an rpg. I can but again pay me to do.

Almost everyone at one time or another whether they will admit or not has probably fudged dice rolls at the table. Spare me the chorus of " I never did, we never did". as that is probably bullshit. I rarely if ever fudge dice yet if the difference between the last epic battle with the BBEG is a TPK or battle to the finish I choose the battle to the finish. If one prefers the first option go for it. It's not my preference yet I'm also no intolerant of other gamers ways of doing things a their table. Many of you are making a huge issue out of nothing really. Play the way you want. What is it with gamers needing to draw a line in the sand on every issue. No compromises " my way is the one true way". Let me tell you something most gamers don't care. We will just nod and back away and go back to playing rpgs.

Now you list actual sane reasons rather than ranting incoherently about needing to get paid to play a system you would like better and not have to fudge rolls.

I hope you admit that the need to fudge rolls is a mechanical flaw in the system.

Because a system could always just have rules for fudging, that then removes all the problems of dice fudging (most of the time) because it is now regulated by established rules.

There is no badfun and no wrongfun in fudging.

Unless you're playing DCC.

Then fudging is doubleplusbadwongfun. :mad:

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1057047Every hour of play, I roll a d6, and if it comes up "6" or "1", I punch a player in the face.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1057225Now you list actual sane reasons rather than ranting incoherently about needing to get paid to play a system you would like better and not have to fudge rolls.

Here we go. I don't like the reasons given so I will classify them as incoherent routine.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1057225I hope you admit that the need to fudge rolls is a mechanical flaw in the system.

I will absolutely do nothing of the sort. I don't like fudging all the time. Nor do I particularly like rpg systems that have a rule for it. They exist I don't have to like them neither do I think they are flawed. I don't like the new Star Wars Rpg from FFG. Neither do I think it's a failure because if a failure is defined as being popular, selling like hotcakes and making the developers a profit I could use some of that failure. Again I refuse to draw lines in the sand. I'm told old for that childish, immature schoolyard bullshit.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1057227There is no badfun and no wrongfun in fudging.

Unless you're playing DCC.

Then fudging is doubleplusbadwongfun. :mad:

This guy actually gets it.

I would like to try DCC yet like FFG Star Wars I don't like the funky dice used in the rpg.