Traveller fatal misjump - this just seems a bit silly if it's a reasonably possible outcome of a regular Jump. If they Jump within one diameter of a star, or something crazy like that, sure.  Since the game posits an interstellar civilisation that routinely uses Jump drive, it shouldn't be suicidally dangerous (likewise with low berths/cold sleep).

I like Save vs Death but I like it when it's clearly a result of player decisions, like deciding to fight the ultimate BBEG. I Disintegrated my 8 year old son's 18th level Wizard (perma-dead) in a Mystara campaign, in the final battle over Ostland - he'd played that guy for four years, up from 4th level. It was tough, but (a) he knew the Heldannic Warbird's Blight Belcher could Disintegrate - it had already destroyed the Wizard's son's Drolem - and he chose to keep on fighting. He needed 4+ to save, made me roll - & I rolled a 2.

It made a good climactic session for the campaign.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1057007So you let their day be ruined, and then you sit back and watch in surprise as they actually figure their way out of the shit they've got themselves in.

And the campaign ends.  Congratulations, Mr. Hardcore, I hope you find another everyone wants to play.  Constant TPKs are not fun, it doesn't matter if it's random rolls, it kills a lot of enthusiasm for the game.  People are EMOTIONAL.  You need to manage the expectations of your table.

If your table loves to swing the e-peen by 'hard core' they are in the make believe, fine, but the 50+ I've been a part of?  All been different.

And yes, it IS coddling, because the point of Role Playing Games is FUN.  For the entire table, not some tryhard who thinks running a game is crushing the players constantly.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1057080And the campaign ends.  Congratulations, Mr. Hardcore, I hope you find another everyone wants to play.  Constant TPKs are not fun, it doesn't matter if it's random rolls, it kills a lot of enthusiasm for the game.  People are EMOTIONAL.  You need to manage the expectations of your table.

If your table loves to swing the e-peen by 'hard core' they are in the make believe, fine, but the 50+ I've been a part of?  All been different.

And yes, it IS coddling, because the point of Role Playing Games is FUN.  For the entire table, not some tryhard who thinks running a game is crushing the players constantly.

The game rules should be as such that players feel like they deserve defeats.

If a game requires fudging, it should just have rules for fudging like Savage Worlds (GM rerolls per session), then it is no longer fudging dice, it's just a game mechanic.

This is why you have to filter out people who are emotionally invested in their characters to the point of being crushed if those characters die.

I also don't want to play baseball with people who get upset if they strike out.  I want people who find it fun to test themselves against a good pitcher, base hit or strikeout, come what may.

Placing too much investment in games is not a positive personal feature, and a vulnerability to this doesn't create an obligation on people with more conventional priorities.

Quote from: S'mon;1057076Traveller fatal misjump - this just seems a bit silly if it's a reasonably possible outcome of a regular Jump. If they Jump within one diameter of a star, or something crazy like that, sure.  Since the game posits an interstellar civilisation that routinely uses Jump drive, it shouldn't be suicidally dangerous (likewise with low berths/cold sleep).

I like Save vs Death but I like it when it's clearly a result of player decisions, like deciding to fight the ultimate BBEG. I Disintegrated my 8 year old son's 18th level Wizard (perma-dead) in a Mystara campaign, in the final battle over Ostland - he'd played that guy for four years, up from 4th level. It was tough, but (a) he knew the Heldannic Warbird's Blight Belcher could Disintegrate - it had already destroyed the Wizard's son's Drolem - and he chose to keep on fighting. He needed 4+ to save, made me roll - & I rolled a 2.

It made a good climactic session for the campaign.

That's my rule of thumb. If I put in any kind of save or die mechanic (including any random possibility of character/party death) it's optional or clearly telegraphed, or preferably both. Plonking a basilisk in front of a character is not fun. Having a basilisk lair with petrified adventurers near the entrance is just fine.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1057080And yes, it IS coddling, because the point of Role Playing Games is FUN.  For the entire table, not some tryhard who thinks running a game is crushing the players constantly.

Fun is a poorly defined concept. People find Eve Online fun, and it's been described as spreadsheets in space.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1057089Fun is a poorly defined concept.

Some people find discussing approaches to gaming online to be fun, but most players don't.

Quote from: S'mon;1057076Traveller fatal misjump - this just seems a bit silly if it's a reasonably possible outcome of a regular Jump. If they Jump within one diameter of a star, or something crazy like that, sure.  Since the game posits an interstellar civilisation that routinely uses Jump drive, it shouldn't be suicidally dangerous (likewise with low berths/cold sleep).

I can understand this, but I'm OK with space travel not being safe. Space is a very harsh environment, that is why most people stay on worlds.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1057080And the campaign ends.  Congratulations, Mr. Hardcore, I hope you find another everyone wants to play.  Constant TPKs are not fun, it doesn't matter if it's random rolls, it kills a lot of enthusiasm for the game.  People are EMOTIONAL.  You need to manage the expectations of your table.

If your table loves to swing the e-peen by 'hard core' they are in the make believe, fine, but the 50+ I've been a part of?  All been different.

And yes, it IS coddling, because the point of Role Playing Games is FUN.  For the entire table, not some tryhard who thinks running a game is crushing the players constantly.

Then why have rules or failure at all? Just play pretend like children do.

Speaking for myself it's not the failures that are the issue. Continuous failures suck the fun out of a rpg. I don't always want to win. Neither do I want to play Misery porn the rpg. Not without getting paid.

Quote from: S'mon;1057076Traveller fatal misjump - this just seems a bit silly if it's a reasonably possible outcome of a regular Jump.

In Classic Traveller from 1977, it's not. You roll 2d6, and if it's 13+ there's a misjump, 16+ means the destruction of the ship, while 13-15 means the ship jumps 1d6-6d6 hexes in a random direction, taking 1d6 weeks to get through Jump vs the normal 168+/-10hr.

But again: 13+ on 2d6. The modifiers are,
+1 using unrefined fuel while not equipped to do so
+5 jumping within 10-100 diameters of a world
+10 jumping within 10 diameters

So if you stick to worlds with class A and B starports then you can always buy refined fuel, and if you cruise out to the right distance, you can always be 100+ diameters away (and this only takes at most 18 hours with the in-book 1G drive, even from a large gas giant, and it's just an hour or two from the typical Mars or Titan-sized world), and thus it's actually impossible to misjump. Now, if you take unrefined fuel (skimming gas giants, or being stuck with class C or less starports), then you have a 1 in 36 chance of misjump, but a zero chance of destruction of the ship.

If you enter Jump 10-100 diameters away while using refined fuel, then you have a 1 in 12 chance of destruction of your ship (rolling 11-12 with +5 gives 16-17) and a 1 in 3 chance of a misjump. This means a 21/36 or 58% chance of everything being fine. If you enter Jump inside 10 diameters, for example of the surface of the planet, there's 26/36 or 72% chance of death, a 9/36 or 25% chance of misjump, and a 1 in 36 or 3% chance that all will be fine.

The 1981 CT rules removed the possibility of instant destruction of the ship, leaving just the jump in a random direction for a random distance, but increasing the <10 diameter jump failure modifier to +15; they also added some other modifiers if the ship lacks the engineers it needs, and if it is past its annual overhaul, but these are just the chance for the drives or power plant to fail entirely, rather than blow you up or launch you somewhere random.

As for the random distance and direction misjump, bear in mind that the ship's crew can choose to carry extra fuel in lieu of cargo. So if they're going somewhere with poor starports, or where they might have to run away suddenly, they can plan for that, and buy and carry extra refined fuel.

The risks in CT (1977) are, as I've said before in many places about coldsleep vs steerage etc, on par with the risks to crew, passengers and ship in the age of sail while out on the frontiers of the Western world - it's not navies off their own coasts in 2018, it's more like the Royal Navy heading to India in 1750. I believe that was the intent of the authour.

In-game, these are all manageable and knowable risks which can be minimised by prudent play. And that's what you want in a roleplaying game, that there are elements of both chance and choice; the game of two-up is all chance, while chess is all choice, rpgs are in between. Prudent players will try to reduce the influence of chance on their fate, and plan ahead.

Like Ratman said, in general it's good to lay things out so they have some understanding of the risks they're taking. In fact, my most recent campaign was a CT (1977) one, and in their second last session while fleeing one of the many enemies they'd made themselves, they did a Jump at 10-100 diameters - and misjumped back to a world they'd been to before. They chose that risk over arrest and trial. And they had of course chosen the actions that led to the threatened arrest and trial. They created the situation leading to it all coming down to one dice roll.

As for you, Christopher, you quoted me saying,

QuoteSo you let their day be ruined, and then you sit back and watch in surprise as they actually figure their way out of the shit they've got themselves in.

and then replied,

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1057080And the campaign ends.  

Players are more intelligent and creative than they're often given credit for. Yes, they might all fall down the first time, but given a chance, they get up, dust themselves off, and figure things out.

It's almost as if you didn't actually read what you quoted. This seems to be a particularly American problem. I suggest a visit to another country to broaden your discursive experiences.

Quote from: sureshot;1057121Speaking for myself it's not the failures that are the issue. Continuous failures suck the fun out of a rpg. I don't always want to win. Neither do I want to play Misery porn the rpg. Not without getting paid.

Why not play a game without those?

Quote from: sureshot;1057121Speaking for myself it's not the failures that are the issue. Continuous failures suck the fun out of a rpg. I don't always want to win. Neither do I want to play Misery porn the rpg. Not without getting paid.

Sometimes you're a losing streak. Keep playing through it.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1057124Why not play a game without those?

Because no one is paying me lots of money

I actually have a life outside of this hobby and I want my rpgs to be a mix of success and failures and again no one is paying me to play misery porn the rpg.

Seriously what the big issue. I never said no failures at the table while playing rpg.

Quote from: Lurtch;1057126Sometimes you're a losing streak. Keep playing through it.

Of course which I have. Sometimes the dice are terrible.