[video=youtube_share;_p_fhXgDCeQ]https://youtu.be/_p_fhXgDCeQ[/youtube]

I think its more that this "its ok to twerk rolls for the drama, or to save PCs" has been bouncing around a while now. Part of it is that some players realllly do not like losing a PC. Others want the PCs to be larger than life and practically invincible. And they impose that ideal onto DMs who then try to impart that to other DMs.

Others really do not want to play an RPG and just want to storytell. The dice are in the way of the story, or the "narrative" as some like to claim.

And a few simply do not understand how the real world works and especially how combat works and just how random things can get.

Recent example: A friend of mines co worker was checking trucks and found some robbers in one. One pulled out a gun and fired on him. Luckily he dodged and escaped. But there are some people who think that pointing a gun at someone is instant 100% every time death.

Oh. and you are uh-ing alot in this one at the start again.

Hell No!!!  Dice rolls Matter!!!  Don't roll the Dice, if you want to Auto Win every time.  Dice are RANDOM Number generators...

You've struck on one of my all-time pet peeves here man

It sets my teeth on edge every time I hear this "fudge" advice being given. Jesus if you don't want the dice to have a say then *don't fucking roll them*

Don't lie to your players, though! What's to be gained from that?!

Quote from: Azraele;1056960Jesus if you don't want the dice to have a say then *don't fucking roll them*

Another way to put it: Don't have a possible dice result you wouldn't want.
Man, there's got to be a snappy way to put it.

Point is, if you don't want a character to die, just say 0 HP is knocked out. If you don't want "save or die" traps or monsters in your game, don't use them.
Fudging is just a dumb idea to cover up bad game play.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056964Another way to put it: Don't have a possible dice result you wouldn't want.
Man, there's got to be a snappy way to put it.

Point is, if you don't want a character to die, just say 0 HP is knocked out. If you don't want "save or die" traps or monsters in your game, don't use them.
Fudging is just a dumb idea to cover up bad game play.

I think they want the appearance of risk but not the actuality. It's a particular problem with linear railroad games - they present as a sequence of challenges to overcome, but the GM does not want to see failure that derails the game.

Quote from: S'mon;1056966I think they want the appearance of risk but not the actuality. It's a particular problem with linear railroad games - they present as a sequence of challenges to overcome, but the GM does not want to see failure that derails the game.

Except we know that it can't really derail the game even if it derails the plot the railroad tracks are set for unless the GM is being a tool.

Good video, I enjoyed it. I'd say 'never fudge a dice roll'* - if you really need/want to fudge things a bit, maybe for genre reasons, there are tons of things a GM can do without cheating on the dice - eg don't roll for reinforcements to turn up; roll or don't roll a monster Reaction check (2d6, where only 2 is 'attacks immediately'). Until monster stats actually enter play - eg PCs roll vs monster AC or significantly damage monster hp - they are correctable. I don't really think it's fudging (although not ideal) when I'm converting monster stats to 5e, or updating 4e stats to the post-MM3 standard, and realise after the fight has started that I need to make an edit.   Maybe I made damage twice what it should be, or hit points need halving or we'll be here all night - this occasional need to edit mid-fight only really comes up in 4e though because it is so fight-centric (and the listed stats are often so bad, especially in early products); with 5e if I realise the book stats suck (eg 5e gargoyles) I'll normally use them as-is that time, then use a new & improved version later (eg 5e gargoyles with 4 attacks instead of 2).

*I like to declare the target number before rolling, so I can't then fudge it. Also raises excitement when players know the stakes.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1056971Except we know that it can't really derail the game even if it derails the plot the railroad tracks are set for unless the GM is being a tool.

Well the typical Paizo AP for instance often doesn't address failure states at all, or the assumption is the game ends. I think it can be worked around but it needs an experienced GM who thinks ahead. If you try to run it as presented you definitely get problems without any malevolence intended.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056964Another way to put it: Don't have a possible dice result you wouldn't want.
Man, there's got to be a snappy way to put it.

Point is, if you don't want a character to die, just say 0 HP is knocked out. If you don't want "save or die" traps or monsters in your game, don't use them.
Fudging is just a dumb idea to cover up bad game play.

I have the same issue with the "revolutionary" fail forward mechanics I see some going on about these days. If a roll has the potential to stop all forward progress in the game, then you should probably re-evaluate the need for the roll or the outcome of a failed roll. That isn't a new concept.

If failure isn't an option then why include it as a possibility?


Some of my most memorable gaming experiences are closely tied to outlandish die rolls resulting in both good and bad outcomes for the PCs.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1056975I have the same issue with the "revolutionary" fail forward mechanics I see some going on about these days. If a roll has the potential to stop all forward progress in the game, then you should probably re-evaluate the need for the roll or the outcome of a failed roll. That isn't a new concept.

Yep. Perhaps a better mechanic would be failure as setback instead of bottleneck.

QuoteIf failure isn't an option then why include it as a possibility?

Where were you 5 posts ago?

Quote from: Azraele;1056960Don't lie to your players, though! What's to be gained from that?!

Fun, what else?  It's about managing the expectations.  Sometimes having five 20s would ruin the tables day, so you settle for three.  It's not an all or nothing proposition, I wish people could realize that.

Boy do I hate this fail forward crap.  Coddling tomorrows snowflakes today!  Like trying to solve linear fighter quadratic wizard... Its not something you should be solving. You want quadratic fighter? Seriously?  What are we just handing GMPCs to players now?  Now we don't have a game unless every single member of the party is mary sue?

What are we playin here? Hunger games? The odds must forever be in your favor?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1056998Fun, what else?  It's about managing the expectations.  Sometimes having five 20s would ruin the tables day, so you -

So you let their day be ruined, and then you sit back and watch in surprise as they actually figure their way out of the shit they've got themselves in.

I've been running AD&D1e open game table on and off for several years now, and never fudge anything. Basically when I roll things up I have to set it as 2-4 levels higher than them just to see them properly challenged. They do amazingly well. If you - or the dice - challenge people, they will quite often rise to the occasion.

Both many DMs and most game designers vastly underestimate the brains and creativity of players when challenged. I think some DMs and game designers are like the over-protective parent who, deep down, is terrified of their kid not actually needing them to hold their hand.

Savage Worlds has a mechanic called "Bennies" which are rerolls and the GM gets one per player per session and every GM Wildcard has two.

I have learned the benefits of being able to "Fudge" dice, but I could have never brought myself to do it if it wasn't an actual mechanic.

Sometimes my boss needs to do a thing. Sometimes my boss needs to NOT roll 58 damage. Using bennies has been a great tool for me to nudge the odds (which a game as swingy as Savage Worlds needs a mechanic like that) and control pacing. But my players see my rolls and my stack of bennie poker chips, so they know what can happen and can take that into account.

Ad hoc fudging is just cheating though and for the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would want to cheat at an RPG.