What if Sleep gets a saving throw but no HD limit (other than the result of the die roll for how many total creatures are affected)? Would it help if creatures with HD>4 had a bonus to the save?
It becomes more powerful, you may find everyone in your game plays an Elf.
It also makes it arguably much better than a lot of higher level spells. A way to make it scale with regards to the rest of the game might be to make it work like Turn Undead, or if your into how Next does things, have it effect higher level creatures if you memorize/cast it in a higher spell slot. (So perhaps if you cast it at level 1 it effects a max of 4HD, level 2 8HD and level 9 36HD).
Might help to indicate which version of D&D you're talking about.
Quote from: jadrax;681542It becomes more powerful, you may find everyone in your game plays an Elf.
It also makes it arguably much better than a lot of higher level spells. A way to make it scale with regards to the rest of the game might be to make it work like Turn Undead, or if your into how Next does things, have it effect higher level creatures if you memorize/cast it in a higher spell slot. (So perhaps if you cast it at level 1 it effects a max of 4HD, level 2 8HD and level 9 36HD).
That's interesting, I asked the same thing at TBP and someone was concerned that it would be much weaker this way. The turn undead idea is interesting.
It would negatively affect low level magic-users dramatically.
Basically they've gone to being useless all the time except for one fight, to being useless all the time except for one fight where they are mildly useful.
On the flip side, it would be giving higher level magic-users another save or die spell in their arsenal vs stronger monsters.
I think if you want to give sleep a saving throw, fine, but remember it is a 1st level spell and should have limited usefulness against tougher monsters. And you probably want to buff MUs somehow.
I personally do give sleep a saving throw, but I also let MUs cast a ray of energy (the 3.x cantrip) that does 1d3 damage with a to hit roll at will, so to speak.
Quote from: LibraryLass;681535What if Sleep gets a saving throw but no HD limit (other than the result of the die roll for how many total creatures are affected)? Would it help if creatures with HD>4 had a bonus to the save?
In general, the spell would be far more powerful as it could affect any being not immune to sleep. However, it would make low level magic-users weaker as the spell would no longer work all the time. Assuming TSR-style D&D, a first level mage with sleep memorized would go from being able to all but ensure a win of one encounter, to being able to put a few monsters to sleep if he's lucky.
Quote from: LibraryLass;681535What if Sleep gets a saving throw but no HD limit (other than the result of the die roll for how many total creatures are affected)? Would it help if creatures with HD>4 had a bonus to the save?
1E?
Being a level 1 spell, I would not reccomend allowing it to work on more than 1 target of level 8 or higher.
But in general, sounds fine to me. The saves are not particularly easy to make. Higher HD have better saves, so no special bonus is really needed.
Sleep is a tricky spell. Insanely good at times, completely useless other times.
Quote from: RandallS;681574In general, the spell would be far more powerful as it could affect any being not immune to sleep. However, it would make low level magic-users weaker as the spell would no longer work all the time. Assuming TSR-style D&D, a first level mage with sleep memorized would go from being able to all but ensure a win of one encounter, to being able to put a few monsters to sleep if he's lucky.
The low level wizard is not that bad off if Sleep had a save. Most low hd creatures have terrible saves vs spell.
Personally I prefer incapacitation effects to have a save, even if it is a tough roll.
You could assign a discretionary bonus or penalty to the saving throw based on the targets' alertness:
If they're drunk or really exhausted, they gets a big penalty.
If they're run-of-the-mill bored guards who are not aware of any imminent peril, they get a small penalty.
If they're run-of-the-mill bored guards who have already spotted the party but not in an obviously hostile situation (so not orc guards in a dungeon but militiamen by the city gates in the daytime), they get a normal saving throw.
If they are already in combat or charging into it, they get a large bonus.
The idea is to get the M.U. to stop thinking of Sleep as Fireball Light and star thinking of it as a powerful non-combat spell.
JeremyR, you have a point about the potential uselessness of the low-level Magic User, but that's a different problem with different solutions. For starters, DMs should realise that just like low-level Thieves, low-level M.U.-s are poor at dungeon combat, and they should give their players some adventures other than pure dungeoncrawling, to give them a chance to shine. Like a city adventure: a whodunnit, a caper, something of the sort.
Quote from: Bill;681576Sleep is a tricky spell. Insanely good at times, completely useless other times.
That's one of the reasons why I always hated it. However in its latest incarnation (Next), I've decided that this is a good thing and how a good spell should be. I like the idea of spells being a sort-of gamble rather than an absolute. The sleep spell is a grand example of that philosophy. If you roll well, it can be amazing. But if you roll crap, it's almost a waste of a spell. Most of the times you'll roll somewhere in-between and it's a good spell when you do, but not great.
So throw the dice and see what happens :)
Quote from: The_Rooster;681584That's one of the reasons why I always hated it. However in its latest incarnation (Next), I've decided that this is a good thing and how a good spell should be. I like the idea of spells being a sort-of gamble rather than an absolute. The sleep spell is a grand example of that philosophy. If you roll well, it can be amazing. But if you roll crap, it's almost a waste of a spell. Most of the times you'll roll somewhere in-between and it's a good spell when you do, but not great.
So throw the dice and see what happens :)
I aree, but I do know a player that can't stand spells being unreliable in any way. He like magic missile but would pull his hair out if casting acid arrow and misses.
In Baldur's Gate (recently picked it up again on Steam for $5) they do get a save, and it doesn't seem to make it any less useful. I throw it on a stack of gnolls and cut that group by at least half, if not more. Sometimes they all fail. Never have they all succeeded.
I have also never really understood why high HD means you don't get sleepy. And don't elves meditate? Wouldn't a spell that makes you sleepy make you do whatever it is you do when you get tired? Undead, constructs, okay fine. Elves, though?
Quote from: mcbobbo;681593In Baldur's Gate (recently picked it up again on Steam for $5) they do get a save, and it doesn't seem to make it any less useful. I throw it on a stack of gnolls and cut that group by at least half, if not more. Sometimes they all fail. Never have they all succeeded.
I have also never really understood why high HD means you don't get sleepy. And don't elves meditate? Wouldn't a spell that makes you sleepy make you do whatever it is you do when you get tired? Undead, constructs, okay fine. Elves, though?
The HD limit on sleep is just how the spell was designed.
It probably made sense to the person that created it.
HD and levels being a very important element of the game mechanics.
I think that the point of a low-level magic user in standard D&D is that they trade off having very limited effectiveness in most of the adventure for being able to have very certain effectiveness (magic missile, sleep, etc) at key moments.
RPGPundit
I think it harms low level MUs significantly. Your cap of what you can sleep isn't increased (due to the roll), but you lose the reliability of the spell. (You could argue that the roll for number of HD effected is effectively a save, and so you're allowing a double save).
It helps high level MUs slightly, in that it gives a chance of sleeping enemies that they couldn't before. But with the variability in hit dice effected, that's still a crapshoot, and the save + bonus would make it even more so. I don't know if it's ever an option that I'd use.
It's great for enemies, though. They don't need to be reliable. They just need to hit *once*, and it's an effective SoD.
I have no problem making it a defined area effect spell with a saving throw. I visualize it as a cloud of glittering sleepy dust that rains on the area and some stand while others fall.
But it does change the nature of the spell.
I have also experimented with no save, but affects 4D6 HD of creatures in the area, starting with the lowest HD and working upward to a max of 4HD.
Quote from: Spinachcat;682188I have no problem making it a defined area effect spell with a saving throw. I visualize it as a cloud of glittering sleepy dust that rains on the area and some stand while others fall.
But it does change the nature of the spell.
I have also experimented with no save, but affects 4D6 HD of creatures in the area, starting with the lowest HD and working upward to a max of 4HD.
So removing the HD roll might be worth doing then, if I want the save?