Quote from: Imperator;538867I know this because of the data provided by Ryan Dancey, and other indicators that have abundantly been cited at the moment Pathfinder outsold 4e.

Ryan never provided any evidence, he said some numbers, from a time when he wasn't even working there, but just do the math a wee bit on his 'supposed numbers' and see just how ludicrous they are.  There is no evidence that Pathfinder has ever outsold D&D.  They get those supposed numbers from icv2  a place who calls up a couple game stores asks whats hot, they also check in with some distributors about what is selling where.  Uh oh WotC has it's own distribution center, they bypass most distributors, just like GW does.  Sure you can order from distributors, but why?  you can go right to the source to get your product cutting out the middleman.  

Quote from: Imperator;538867As other people have pointed out, certainly D&D has never competed against itself before, and the fact that the 4e allowed people to do just that is a huge huge mistake.

Which if you listen to the pratle about "Paizo makes all their monies on modules"  Ever see how popular their modules actually are?

Quote from: Imperator;538867I agree, and that is why I don't hate 4e, I don't think is a pox meant to destroy the hobby, and I own it, have run it and enjoyed it. Not my favourite version of the game, but fun enough to deserve playing.

Neither is it for me, I play PF on Fridays, 1e on Saturdays and run 4e every other Sunday, but D&D has never been my favorite system.  Each version the groups seem to be having fun, at least I am enjoying them.

Quote from: Imperator;538867The fact that many kickstarters are getting significant amounts of money is one indicator. I am seeing OSR games even in Barcelona, Spain, which says something about the exposure of the movement. This far, most publishers affiliated with the OSR are reporting increases in sales. So yeah, I think there is ground to say that the OSR is gettimg some success.

And they could be getting their money from the same small group of people.  People could be getting tired of the CCG aspects of the last couple of editions of D&D and are wanting something simpler, too bad they don't realize there are already oodles of games out there that do that.  Personally I think the osr fad will hit rock bottom when 5e comes out,  so they best hurry and gets their stuff to market.

 

Quote from: Imperator;538867I don't think you are serious if you read in that "essential" anything more than marketing-speak. If you want to play D&D, the only books you need are the initial 3 of any edition. Period. There's never been any edition of D&D where you really needed any supplemental book to play the game, so please, spare us the attempt to make you look like a fucking idiot by pretending that you believe that marketing blurbs are literal truth.

Why not?
You can easily play 4e with the PHB, MM and DMG.
It's the insistence of dumb people here making shit up to 'prove' their points who are blowing smoke out their own asses, desperately trying to say 4e is not D&D, and all it does is make them look foolish.

Quote from: Imperator;538867I honestly don't know what you mean by that.

That is what Paizo and Ryan use as 'proof' that PF is outselling 4e.

Quote from: Imperator;538867Because circunstances are radically different, as is the people involved. Also, there's many people who were involved in 4e working in 5e, Mike Mearls, for example. So it cannot be compared.

Sure it can.  The bickering and backstabbing among the designers is a well known fact.  Hell Monte just quit, Bill got canned and right after Mike announces 5e.  Start putting some of the puzzle pieces together.

Sommerjon, why do you enjoy defending 4E?

You are not quite a 4venger, but you act like any criticism is a personal attack against the game and thus you.

(No, I am not trying to be cute here. 4E just doesn't do it for me and I do go after 4vengers with a passion. I also recognize that 4E fans are not all 4vengers.

I'd like to know Sommerjon's position better because he seems to be a unique case.)

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;538854People call it a board game because it is designed to be played strictly on the grid, with gamist power mechanics (that feel very "cardlike"). It feels like a board game, so peope call it one. Heck, it is more board gamey than the old hero quest board game.

They call it that to make their way of playing make believe feel superior.

Quote from: Sommerjon;538920They call it that to make their way of playing make believe feel superior.

Some probably do, others just do it to help explain their dislike of the system. Really most people just have preferences and aren't carrying around some super villain level hate for an edition of dungeons and dragons. These things just get heated because the fans of various editins or styles of play come to blows when they disagree. Like I said, i don't care if others like 4e. What does bother me is 4e fans refusing to accept my "just wasn't for me" response and moving into an interrogation over minutiae. This happens all the time on other boards where 4vengers just wont let anything go (i.e. "so you say you don't like healing surges ehh? Yet you say you like hit points...."). Me not liking 4e isn't a personal attack on or judgment about you.

Quote from: jeff37923;538919Sommerjon, why do you enjoy defending 4E?

You are not quite a 4venger, but you act like any criticism is a personal attack against the game and thus you.

(No, I am not trying to be cute here. 4E just doesn't do it for me and I do go after 4vengers with a passion. I also recognize that 4E fans are not all 4vengers.

I'd like to know Sommerjon's position better because he seems to be a unique case.)

Because it isn't criticism.

Quote from: Sommerjon;538923Because it isn't criticism.

Could you expand on that one a bit?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;538922Some probably do, others just do it to help explain their dislike of the system. Really most people just have preferences and aren't carrying around some super villain level hate for an edition of dungeons and dragons. These things just get heated because the fans of various editins or styles of play come to blows when they disagree. Like I said, i don't care if others like 4e. What does bother me is 4e fans refusing to accept my "just wasn't for me" response and moving into an interrogation over minutiae. This happens all the time on other boards where 4vengers just wont let anything go (i.e. "so you say you don't like healing surges ehh? Yet you say you like hit points...."). Me not liking 4e isn't a personal attack on or judgment about you.

Because it's never left at  "just wasn't for me".  No they got to get on their soapbox and/or make snide comments over and over and over.

Those snide comments and/or soapboxes are shitting on others enjoyment.  How is that not OneTrueWayism?
Fun wrong

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;538922Some probably do, others just do it to help explain their dislike of the system. Really most people just have preferences and aren't carrying around some super villain level hate for an edition of dungeons and dragons. These things just get heated because the fans of various editins or styles of play come to blows when they disagree. Like I said, i don't care if others like 4e. What does bother me is 4e fans refusing to accept my "just wasn't for me" response and moving into an interrogation over minutiae. This happens all the time on other boards where 4vengers just wont let anything go (i.e. "so you say you don't like healing surges ehh? Yet you say you like hit points...."). Me not liking 4e isn't a personal attack on or judgment about you.

That's my position. Other than Sommerjon just admitting that the opinion of feeling like it's a boardgame isn't as wrong as a 4venger claims but he's just a fan so it confuses me why the defense of indefensible positions?

Quote from: Sommerjon;538926Because it's never left at  "just wasn't for me".  No they got to get on their soapbox and/or make snide comments over and over and over.

Those snide comments and/or soapboxes are shitting on others enjoyment.  How is that not OneTrueWayism?
Fun wrong

You know, I have never seen 4E fans take the 4vengers whose behavior is mischaracterizing them to task for doing this. If 4E fans who are not douchebags don't police their own, then why shouldn't we tell them to fuck off when they are being wankers?

It's not a fucking boardgame, anyone who has ever played RPGs can tell you that.

Quote from: Sommerjon;538926Because it's never left at  "just wasn't for me".  No they got to get on their soapbox and/or make snide comments over and over and over.

Those snide comments and/or soapboxes are shitting on others enjoyment.  How is that not OneTrueWayism?
Fun wrong

Back when it first came out perhaps. But now mostly what I see is 4vengers just not relemting any point in a discussion that has anything to do with 4e. If you think 3e was balanced (and I dont) they spend twelve pages "proving" you wrong. If you think healing surges or martial powers weren't awesome, they demand to know why then spend twelve pages dissecting your answer. Rarely do I see many folks crap all over 4e anymore, and when they do it is because they are just tired of dealing with the 4vengers.

Is it okay for peopke to have negative opinions about 4e or believe it didn't sell well and speculate on why? That is all most people are doing.

Quote from: One Horse Town;538929It's not a fucking boardgame, anyone who has ever played RPGs can tell you that.

I know that but it's convenient shorthand for saying "tactical miniature battle game with rpg elements included and mixed in".  Basically the game is too focused on the battle and not the exploration and roleplay elements.

That doesn't make it a bad game or not fun. But it's not Dnd as defined before 2006 and especially 2000.

Quote from: Marleycat;538931"tactical miniature battle game with rpg elements included an mixed in".  

That is how d&d started, you know.

Quote from: One Horse Town;538932That is how d&d started, you know.

Why yes I do, but without going into the history of it, they wanted more and so came 0/1/2/3e. 4e went too far forward and back simultaneously for at least half the fanbase by any generous estimate.

Quote from: jeff37923;538925Could you expand on that one a bit?

Look at 1e, the game is based on the inch, outdoors that spell of 1" is 10 yards indoors 1" is 10 feet.   So a spell that has a range of 4" is 40 yards outside, but only 40 feet inside.  WTF?  Yet that is A-okay for some reason.  Why have standardized ranges?  Why a factor of 10?  Why are things so precise in measurements?  

Ever look at say S3?  Guess what it's a grid.  Shocking isn't it.  You can actually draw the whole thing out on paper place models and go through it room by room by room.  Absolutely nothing stopping a group from doing that.  I know because I have done it.

So why is it wrong to have a grid for?

Yet for 4e having a grid is somehow, someway wrong and meant to be belittled.  Never mind the game has been based around the grid since it's inception, it's spells are standardized in measurement, it's modules are 100% based upon a grid, etc.

Or let's look at powers.  "Partly because they resemble card entries but also because using one feels like playing a card to me"
So why hasn't D&D always felt like this?  What are spells but a card that you tap?   What about abilities(from older editions) that are 3/day.  Sure you could use them all in one encounter, but would that be wise to do?  Or is the smarter thing to do(you that whole strategic thing, not tactical thing)to use them sparingly throughout the day like a spellcaster does.