"D&D Next"

Sommerjon · May 12, 2012, 12:53:03 PM

Quote from: Marleycat;538592Pathfinder makes it's money other ways but it doesn't force you to have 15-20 books like 4e's splatbook treadmill.

You keep saying this and no matter how many times you say it, it still isn't true.

Bedrockbrendan · May 12, 2012, 12:59:57 PM

Quote from: Sommerjon;538614You keep saying this and no matter how many times you say it, it still isn't true.

4e has three players handbooks and multiple power source bookks. I dont know if pathfinder compares or not, but forme that is way too many core books.

Sommerjon · May 12, 2012, 01:05:28 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;538476Call me old fashioned by I think hard work and effort on the prep side make for better games. You also seem to be confusing the idea of planning for a game with railroading and orchestrating events (neither of which I do). My games simply take a lot of background information, NPC design, setting design, etc. They are made precicely for PCs doing whatever it is they want to do. I never plan out encounters or climactic scenes. I have NPCs with motives and plans, but these can play out very differently depending on what the PCs do.

That was for the other person, I forgot to delete that section from the paste over, but since you responded...

NPC design unless they are going to be in combat with the PCs should be minimal, couple sentences is all that is ever needed. I have found the more background DMs put into the game, the more they try to push that background to the foreground. Netting either unintentional railroading or blatant railroading.
Unless the NPCs motives or plans are tied into the PCs, the chances of them playing out differently is minimal.
I also reuse and recycle. No sense in wasting work I did 4 or 11 years ago when it is still able to apply now.

Sommerjon · May 12, 2012, 01:09:54 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;5386164e has three players handbooks and multiple power source books. I dont know if pathfinder compares or not, but for me that is way too many core books.

And no one forces a group to use those extra books. They are just as optional as Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, Beastiery 2 and 3.

Sommerjon · May 12, 2012, 01:16:13 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;538474If you hope to play the full game you do (particularly if you want to play 4E...unless you want to be tied to a monthly subscription fee for DDI). If the books are truly optional and not needed to play the game then I have no objection. But in recent years wizards has gone for a much more "must have" approach to its splat book material.

For me modules are great because they are entirely optional (I only buy the ones I want and there is no real pressure to have them all) and they are fun to read. I get tons of ideas when I read modules and running them is usually a blast. They have definitely improved my game.

Also judging from your 45 minute prep time above, I think we are not playing the same kind of game at all. For the sorts of games I run, I like to have at least an hour of prep to every 2 hours of play. I get that you think very highly of your own abilities, but haven't met that many GMs that can consistently run great adventures with 45 minutes of prep alone. I can certainly run a game on the fly. That is a different experience from a well prepared game though.

I would rather send 10$ a month on DDI then spend 15$ a month for Paizo's AP modules.

And no I don;t think very highly of my own abilities I think I am serviceable as a DM, but I have learned that over-prepping is a waste of my time as a roleplayer. The players will go where they will, using simple descriptions for background and NPCs and the like(usually very trope-y) makes for a happy DM and happy players.

Not saying that it is the only way to play, but I know my players far, far better then some random module writer ever will.

Bedrockbrendan · May 12, 2012, 01:34:10 PM

Quote from: Sommerjon;538617That was for the other person, I forgot to delete that section from the paste over, but since you responded...

NPC design unless they are going to be in combat with the PCs should be minimal, couple sentences is all that is ever needed. I have found the more background DMs put into the game, the more they try to push that background to the foreground. Netting either unintentional railroading or blatant railroading.
Unless the NPCs motives or plans are tied into the PCs, the chances of them playing out differently is minimal.
I also reuse and recycle. No sense in wasting work I did 4 or 11 years ago when it is still able to apply now.

I find knowing more about my npcs motives helps me react accordingly to PC behavior. As a GM I certainly have shortcomings, but unintentinal railroading isn't one of them. I always want combat stats regardless because I never know how the PCs are going to act towards a given NPC (plus I have a good sheet of stock stats for things like soldiers and bandits).

One can always over prepare, but there is a basic level of prep I expect from myself and from any GM...it is more than 45 minutes.

Bedrockbrendan · May 12, 2012, 01:37:08 PM

Quote from: Sommerjon;538619I would rather send 10$ a month on DDI then spend 15$ a month for Paizo's AP modules.

I am no fan of Paizo's subscription model either (and frankly I am not really into their adventure paths----wasn't that into their dungeon magazine adventures if I am being honest here). I don't want to be locked into a monthly fee of any kind for my gaming. period.

But the difference between a line of modules and a line of core books, is the former you buy whenever you want a module, the latter people feel pressure to buy to play the full game.

Bedrockbrendan · May 12, 2012, 01:38:53 PM

Quote from: Sommerjon;538618And no one forces a group to use those extra books. They are just as optional as Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, Beastiery 2 and 3.

Arguably PHBs 1, 2 and 3 are not optional. They contain classes people expect to play in a standard game of D&D. Books like martial powers you can choose to not buy, but you are going to have that pressure in your group once someone does make the purchase to buy it yourself (of course no one is holding a gun to your head, but I have seen this dynamic enough to know it exists and to admit I am not immune to it).

jeff37923 · May 12, 2012, 03:30:47 PM

Quote from: Sommerjon;538618And no one forces a group to use those extra books. They are just as optional as Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, Beastiery 2 and 3.

Bullshit.

I like to play Bards. I could not do that in 4E unless I bought the PHB 2. Bard is a core class in D&D

Your comparison fails.

B.T. · May 12, 2012, 04:30:10 PM

Like, you could refluff the warlord as a bard. 4e is for gamers with imaginations, sorry you don't have one.

Marleycat · May 12, 2012, 04:36:57 PM

Quote from: B.T.;538651Like, you could refluff the warlord as a bard. 4e is for gamers with imaginations, sorry you don't have one.

Or they could just put a base class in the Player's Handbook and not some optional book, seems logical to me but what do I know?

jeff37923 · May 12, 2012, 05:06:35 PM

Quote from: B.T.;538651Like, you could refluff the warlord as a bard. 4e is for gamers with imaginations, sorry you don't have one.

If 4E is for gamers with imaginations, then why do all the powers have such detailed descriptions? Can't 4E gamers just come up with what they look like on their own?

:rolleyes:

Sommerjon · May 12, 2012, 06:53:33 PM

Quote from: Marleycat;538653Or they could just put a base class in the Player's Handbook and not some optional book, seems logical to me but what do I know?

Random guy 281 got started in D&D with Oriental Adventures, does that mean ninja is a base class? Or samurai? Or shukenja?

Does that mean he can bitch and whine that his 'base classes' should be in the Player's Handbook and not some optional book, sure seems 'logical' to him.

Sommerjon · May 12, 2012, 06:55:09 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;538646Bullshit.

I like to play Bards. I could not do that in 4E unless I bought the PHB 2. Bard is a core class in D&D

Your comparison fails.

Bard is a base class? Really? Where is that written in the Dungeons and Dragonsnomicom? Chapter and verse please.

Sommerjon · May 12, 2012, 06:57:27 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;538625Arguably PHBs 1, 2 and 3 are not optional. They contain classes people expect to play in a standard game of D&D. Books like martial powers you can choose to not buy, but you are going to have that pressure in your group once someone does make the purchase to buy it yourself (of course no one is holding a gun to your head, but I have seen this dynamic enough to know it exists and to admit I am not immune to it).

What's wrong with Brendan having a book I don't have?
What's wrong with the group sitting around and hashing out what they want or don't want in the game? Where is it written that because it's ina book, it has to be available?