Quote from: Sommerjon;538389You don't have to spread the love around the group.

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I find most games are much easier to run if the GM owns all the relevant books and the players each have copies of anything approaching a players' handbook (especially since a lot of character creation and all of prep is done between games).

I am sorry but 5 players handbooks at 35 bucks is outrageous. I would never spend that much on something so core to running the game ( may buy supps and modules over time that are fully optional, but not going to play a game that essentially requires you have five books from multiple lines to be complete).

Quote from: Marleycat;538394I agree with all of the above.

That's because you're awesome, and smarter than most...  

Quote from: Sommerjon;538389That to me is just a stupid spend of cash that you don't get enough out of.

I paid an average of about $5 each for modules like the Slaver Series, Against the Giants, White Plume Mountain, The UK1-2 Gauntlet series, Dwellers of the Forbidden City, etc.

And you know what?  My players have really enjoyed every single one.  And I've run each one several times over the years (I'm currently running DotFC right now).  I'd say I more than got my money's worth, compared to spending $30-$40 on a book that might only be used once or twice for a very specific character concept.*

*What I do consider wasted money was my Complete Bard's book, or Complete Dwarves&Gnomes books, or by Complete Barbarian's book, because those were hardly ever used in the past 20 years or so I've had them.

Boy, just the use we got out of the Castle Amber module alone was astronomical.  I have a few characters that still have wings from that dinner party, and few who died there as well, LOL!  We would just re-randomize those tables and go!

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;538407So it is too much work? I suppose, but reading and running a good module is both fun and rewarding (or using bits of modules here and there). You might do it for a number of reasons. One to see how another good GM approached an idea differently from yourself (to move you outside your comfort zone). Another is because your players might enjoy it (again they are there to have a good time, not bask in your genius). Another is you may not be the genius GM you think you are, and occassionally exposing yourself to well written modules will help you improve your game. Also it just helps if you are having trouble coming up with a cool new idea (which does happen occassionally to everyone).

I don't mind saying that I was made a better GM because I ran modules (both because many of the modules themselves were quite good, but also because you do learn a lot just by seeing how someone else approaches the game). Taking a module and making it works requires a fair bit of skill. It may not be for you (i am not suggesting it is for everyone) but it certainly isn't a sign of a small mind. Most people who run modules, do not run them constantly. Rather they run them every so often.

Funny, from my local forums; Comments by me to the local I only run Modules cuz I have no time, yet he plays in 3-4 games a week person.
" Modules are turn key adventures, and rightly so for how much time it takes to effectively conduct a D20 session."
Have you thought maybe this philosophy of yours is one of the big reasons why your games seem to never last more than a couple sessions?
I've played in games when the DM bought the module over lunch and ran it that night, they never go over well in my experience.  The biggest immersion killer, flow interrupter is having the DM 'look up something' because they don't know the module all that well and are winging it.  Listen to Bob talk about the cancelled 'big game' by VJJ, BJ and himself.  Neither VJJ or BJ had any competence with the module they were testing, yet both were trying to run it on assumption and supposes and 'expertise with d20'.

"Of course the DM always has permission to strip adventures and use just what he or she desires,"
Then why buy the module if you are using only 20-30% of it to make your own adventure out of it?

"but I don't think a stripped module will ever have mass appeal."
Modules don't have mass appeal.   Never have.  

" It is easier to take away or replace then it is to build from scratch. "
I don't buy that at all.
 Combat encounters in D&D are grade-school easy to build.  Plot lines are simple to come up with as well.  Read a book, watch a movie, etc, etc.  I have to spend more time reading, rereading and talking notes on a module(to make sure I am getting the gist of it and to make sure when I do change something the domino effect will be minimized) than I would to come up with my own.  See when I do it myself, I already know what is suppose to be happening 'behind the scenes', I know why that particular McGuffin is there, I know why things are where they are.  That allows me to change something 'on the fly' when I need to, to drive the game forward.

Are you sure the modules are not a root cause?
Not everyone likes modules.  Some feel constrained by modules, some feel it's nothing but a railroad, some feel it's a sign that the DM doesn't have faith in themself to make an adventure, some.... etc.

You really think it takes that much time to build an adventure?  Let's build one here right quick like see how fast we can get an adventure done.(time now 9:53)
Premise:  If I don't have one already in mind(I don't currently) I go to strolens for a quick look around  Found this nugget that I can build off of.
Then I go look for major/minor npc name either I make them up or if I am drawing blanks I go here   or here  for names of people, places or things.  Or I can try my luck here.
I then make encounters and/or events.  Keeping it to PF for your benefit I go here  to do encounters.

Now to tie this altogether and make at least one session's worth of gaming.  We have
The Riot Dog(I can easily change this to numerous other things) Who seems to be always around the yearly riots that occur.
People: Anne Middleton, Nicolas Gyfford, Jaesynn, Nevannah, Adrun, Sasero Xeger, Rade Reddig
Places:  I go here for taverns/Inns.  The Lazy Sheperd, The Ancient Flagon, The Lion's Hall, If I need a complete town I go here
Events/Encounters:  I'll make it 3 level game.  Ogrekin mashed into drunken or spellbound laborers.  I'll use Gnolls if I want a bigger group, I can use a Dire Wolf or two if I want the Riot Dog to have 'friends'.  I'll drop some helpful things along the way.  like a note,  a skeletal body of some sort, a drunk or slow or somehow deficient npc who has information.

And Done.  (time now 10:36)  Not even 45 minutes.

Then everything gets adjusted during the game.  The combat encounters have no 'special place on the map'  They are put in when I think the group wants/needs it.  If the roleplaying has stalled or gone on too long and people are zoning out, out pops a combat.  Because the combat encounters are never the important part it is 95% of the time the helpful hints along the way that are the most important.  the note, the skeletal body or the crazy mans information.  The note comes out when needed, whether that is on a body of someone you just killed, traded for from a merchant, found in a treasure chest, found in a hollow of a tree, on a refuse pit, etc. doesn't really matter it's the information the notes contains that is the most important.

This is something a typical D&D module will never be able to replicate. the typical D&D module is made for generic gaming group 142 it is not made for my gaming group.

Perhaps(my own opinion here) you spend too much critical thought into making an adventure, encounter or campaign?  Trying to get that perfect encounter is a waste of time.  Like the old adage says, a battle plan never survives contact with an enemy.  The perfect encounter never survives contact with the players.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;538407So it isn't stupid to spend 30-35 dollars on upwards on ten core books needed to play the game, but it is too much to have the option of spending 15-30 dollars on a module?

You don't need the upwards of ten core books, they are in addition to, not a necessity.  You can't buy one module and run it nine times back to back for the same group, you need more and more and more.  While I can merely go on the net and search and find oodles upon oodles of ideas for a group to go through.

Quote from: Sommerjon;538470You don't need the upwards of ten core books, they are in addition to, not a necessity.  You can't buy one module and run it nine times back to back for the same group, you need more and more and more.  While I can merely go on the net and search and find oodles upon oodles of ideas for a group to go through.

If you hope to play the full game you do (particularly if you want to play 4E...unless you want to be tied to a monthly subscription fee for DDI). If the books are truly optional and not needed to play the game then I have no objection. But in recent years wizards has gone for a much more "must have" approach to its splat book material.

For me modules are great because they are entirely optional (I only buy the ones I want and there is no real pressure to have them all) and they are fun to read. I get tons of ideas when I read modules and running them is usually a blast. They have definitely improved my game.

Also judging from your 45 minute prep time above, I think we are not playing the same kind of game at all. For the sorts of games I run, I like to have at least an hour of prep to every 2 hours of play. I get that you think very highly of your own abilities, but haven't met that many GMs that can consistently run great adventures with 45 minutes of prep alone. I can certainly run a game on the fly. That is a different experience from a well prepared game though.

Quote from: Sommerjon;538470Perhaps(my own opinion here) you spend too much critical thought into making an adventure, encounter or campaign?  Trying to get that perfect encounter is a waste of time.  Like the old adage says, a battle plan never survives contact with an enemy.  The perfect encounter never survives contact with the players.
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Call me old fashioned by I think hard work and effort on the prep side make for better games. You also seem to be confusing the idea of planning for a game with railroading and orchestrating events (neither of which I do). My games simply take a lot of background information, NPC design, setting design, etc. They are made precicely for PCs doing whatever it is they want to do. I never plan out encounters or climactic scenes. I have NPCs with motives and plans, but these can play out very differently depending on what the PCs do.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;538402You're an idiot.

Alternate answer: (...)

Nope nope. No need for an alternate answer. You got it right in one go.

Quote from: Drohem;538331Since you quoted me, was this addressed to me specifically?

Nope. I apologize if it seemed personal. Such was not my intent.

Quote from: Drohem;538331What were you trying to say here, exactly?

I said what I was trying to say. There was no deeper meaning or rebuke included or intended. Again, I apologize if it seemed otherwise.

Quote from: Drohem;538331Because, frankly, I don't appreciate the underlying implication in your statement.

There's no implication. I wasn't responding to you, but to the general content of the conversation about the lovely, but young Ms. d'Abo.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;538501Nope. I apologize if it seemed personal. Such was not my intent.

Cool, it's all good on my end then.  Thank you very much for clarifying it for me.  I sincerely appreciate it.  

Honestly, I was totally giving you the benefit of the doubt because your posts are always reasonable and affable.  I just needed to make sure because that is something that I cannot let go unchallenged otherwise.  Sorry about the mix-up.

Quote from: Benoist;538479Nope nope. No need for an alternate answer. You got it right in one go.

He's good like that.

Its true, I think, that 95% of adventures and modules are not that great, and most not-that-great modules aren't really worth paying for.

But the 5% that are great are usually worth their weight in gold.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Marleycat;538401As I said before I go by "The Rule of Five". If I can't run or play the complete game with no more than 5 books I'm out.

That's a great rule.
Unless of course, you're a publisher.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;538551That's a great rule.
Unless of course, you're a publisher.

JG

I never said modules, adventure paths and other things of that nature are in the rule of 5. I specifically mean the core game must be fully realized within 5 books. There is nothing wrong with optional books as long as they're realized by the playerbase as options. This ultimately why Pathfinder is sucessful because you can run the game with 1 PHB, 1 GMG, 1 MM, and the APG and not miss anything that isn't an option while allowing for quite a few options beyond the base rules.

Pathfinder makes it's money other ways but it doesn't force you to have 15-20 books like 4e's splatbook treadmill.

Quote from: James Gillen;538551That's a great rule.
Unless of course, you're a publisher.

JG

I would posit that it's the opposite.  Having a ton of splat books caused TSR D&D to fail.  We've heard that 4e is failing as a product, and it also has tons of splatbooks.  So I think just because you have a ton of splatbooks doesn't mean it's good for you as a publisher.  Those things cost a lot of money to make and print, and if you aren't selling them, you will fail.  Just like TSR did.