Quote from: Marleycat;535534Couldn't that be houseruled easily enough? Why would you want to go as far as putting in as an option? I am sure it's easy enough to say this is what is allowed or not during character generation kind of like race.

Because if its there, as a rule, then GMs who want to say "You know what, just pick your theme" can do so, and the players will be fine with that; but if it isn't there, the GM that says "we're picking our themes randomly" will be faced with torrents of bitching and whining from players who want to take 4 hours to choose the theme they think will be strategically best for them and feel like the GM has no right to take that incredibly stupid option away from them, because clearly the rules are "designed" for players to choose any theme they want from the  400 themes available in their attempts to powergame.

RPGPundit

Quote from: CRKrueger;535543At this point you really have an entire generation of players that grew up under a certain paradigm.  As unbelievable as it sounds, just putting options actually as options in the book to show people that in fact they do exist is the first step in reversing the trend.

Exactly.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jadrax;535597Oh, now that would be nice.

Yeah, it would end up looking something like WFRP's careers.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;535748Yeah, it would end up looking something like WFRP's careers.

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I never thought of it that way. I love Warhammer careers if it turned out like that I would not be against it at all.

Quote from: B.T.;535566Instead, the players are left with dozens of invisible house rules that they feel are unfair because they aren't aware of them until it crops up...and even then, the rules are applied in a slipshod, half-retarded manner with no regard to the consequences of the game.

That is a valid concern.

Quote from: Planet Algol;535900That is a valid concern.

It is. Judging by the way some people seem to have had their childhoods raped by this or that shitty DM (and it seems that whenever you get down to the actual reasons why people whine against TSR D&D, it actually comes from a personal experience of the sort), it's clear that it does happen. Which is where the subject of DM formation and coaching comes in.

I personally think it is much better to have an approach that basically acknowledges that the DM is in charge, that he may adjudicate, change the rules and so on, while also providing some good, solid advice coaching the DM to be mindful and careful while doing so, rather than the alternative where you foster said gaming culture of shit that basically surrenders to the cult of RAW, cuts the DM's balls at every turn, and changes the game into a shadow of its former self.

In the former case you give the opportunity to those who want to DM properly to actually do so, and learn how to do so, while in the other case you give a mediocre play experience to everyone at the source, starting with the game system, because you basically have to catter to the lowest common denominator and neuter potential shitty DMs.

I don't know for you, but I'll choose the former every.single.time personally.

Yeah, or putting it another way: Don't play with shitty GMs. Don't blame the good GMs for what the shitty GMs do.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Benoist;535549Well I think he's on the mark here. Part of the problem is this crap gaming culture and mentality that assumes everything must be played by the book all the time or you're "cheating", that you can't possibly house rule anything without wrecking the game because the game publisher and designer knows best, that the GM is "just this other player that should shut the hell up and enable my awesomeness", that assumes guidelines are rules, and options guidelines... it's this shit mentality that needs to be taken down and shot in the face, once and for all.

Dude, best thing I ever read on TheRPGSite

I keep having this conversation about bad GMs ruining AD&D with a guy on the WotC site.

I just want to say, every time he talks shit about AD&D:

"Show me on the character sheet where the bad DM touched you..."

Quote from: Kaldric;536239I keep having this conversation about bad GMs ruining AD&D with a guy on the WotC site.

I just want to say, every time he talks shit about AD&D:

"Show me on the character sheet where the bad DM touched you..."

Don't tempt me..... It was the best campaign ever.  But he was WAY out of line, trust me. I tend to be a very good sport as a player especially if I know the point but he pushed it hard.  All because I schooled him on the capabilities of a 1e/2e F/MU in a Dragonlance sandbox campaign.

Quote from: Benoist;535549Well I think he's on the mark here. Part of the problem is this crap gaming culture and mentality that assumes everything must be played by the book all the time or you're "cheating", that you can't possibly house rule anything without wrecking the game because the game publisher and designer knows best, that the GM is "just this other player that should shut the hell up and enable my awesomeness", that assumes guidelines are rules, and options guidelines... it's this shit mentality that needs to be taken down and shot in the face, once and for all.

I know we have at least one retard here who thinks it's cheating, but for me, it's more that people are playing by two different sets of rules.  The players expect one thing (which is reinforced by the way the rulebooks are written) and the DM expects one thing, and when the DM runs the game to his expectations and not the players, there's trouble.  Also, teenagers are dicks, so expecting teenage DMs not to be fuckstains is unrealistic.

Quote from: B.T.;536251I know we have at least one retard here who thinks it's cheating, but for me, it's more that people are playing by two different sets of rules.  The players expect one thing (which is reinforced by the way the rulebooks are written) and the DM expects one thing, and when the DM runs the game to his expectations and not the players, there's trouble.  Also, teenagers are dicks, so expecting teenage DMs not to be fuckstains is unrealistic.

Two times in ONE day? This is unfair, where is BT you pod person?

Quote from: Benoist;535549Well I think he's on the mark here. Part of the problem is this crap gaming culture and mentality that assumes everything must be played by the book all the time or you're "cheating", that you can't possibly house rule anything without wrecking the game because the game publisher and designer knows best, that the GM is "just this other player that should shut the hell up and enable my awesomeness", that assumes guidelines are rules, and options guidelines... it's this shit mentality that needs to be taken down and shot in the face, once and for all.

That is quite funny considering some of the discussions we have had in the past about dumping crappy rules from AD&D

Quote from: jibbajibba;536305That is quite funny considering some of the discussions we have had in the past about dumping crappy rules from AD&D

That's only because you are mixing up the actual subjects of conversation in your head. There is a difference between (A) discussing the purpose of this or that rule and how it might be employed in the game or ditched altogether, and for what reasons, whether these are sensible or not, and (B) the fact that a DM is in charge of his own game and at the end of the day has the authority to change the rules to fit his particular players, style and campaign.

Believe it or not, these are actually not competing propositions.

Quote from: Benoist;536359That's only because you are mixing up the actual subjects of conversation in your head. There is a difference between (A) discussing the purpose of this or that rule and how it might be employed in the game or ditched altogether, and for what reasons, whether these are sensible or not, and (B) the fact that a DM is in charge of his own game and at the end of the day has the authority to change the rules to fit his particular players, style and campaign.

Believe it or not, these are actually not competing propositions.

heheh but you have told me, have you not, that if I change x, y and z i will no longer be playing D&D

Just yanking your chain bud ....