Quote from: two_fishes;523506I know for a fact that you are objectively wrong on 2 counts,

Prove it or crawl back into your hole.

I've played them and they rocked. QED.

A statement of fact (objective truth) is a fallacy when discussing matters of taste, aka purely subjective.

Quote from: JasperAK;523502And this is why I am looking forward to 5e. Maybe it can act as some sort of framework to bring different types of players to the same table again. The TSR editions showed that different types of gamers could play together because the rules did not really limit the type of enjoyment one could receive from the game. IMHO, 3e began the divide by forcing me to play one way, and 4e cemented that divide by forcing me to play in another. Once my wife and I were forced to play with a battlemat (a common element to both) we left.

We are just one spending data point. But I know about another dozen casual gamers that rejected 3e and 4e because of all the finicky bullshit. Based on past TSR spending habits that equals about three people they could have sold a set of core rules to if they were more rules-lite. Now those people would have never bought ALL of the splats that came out for those later editions, but they might have still been playing WOTC's game.

WOTC's real problem is that there does not seem to be a large enough community to support their business model. Again, their problem not mine.

And that's what makes your feedback super important Jasper: the guys at WotC need to know that. I think that in large part, one of the problems at least, is that there's be a sort of ... "game design groupthink" effect that's been taking over the "industry", and WotC as well as others, and I further think that some echo chambers on the web, like RPGnet and ENWorld, have only amplified the effect over the years.

We're gamers too. We should have a say in what's going on, and what form the game takes from there so we can enjoy it too. That's why I'm not going to bitch at 1989 when he goes ranting about miniatures and battlemats: he's been let down by the game for 12 years now. Don't you think it's about fucking time for him to get a D&D game he might want to play, too?

Anyway, if they put grid combat by default in the game, they're morons. They should know by now. If they don't, I really don't know how they're going to get it... like... ever. But still. We should keep telling them.

(as an aside, I play with or without miniatures, with D&D in particular, I have nothing against miniatures per se. I do however recognize that (1) miniatures are not meant to be the default interpretation of a game that's meant to take place in your imagination, and (2) I'm not the only gamer out there and I've seen gamers complain about miniatures for years. It's about time for the designers to listen.)

The grid has to go. Give it to those who need it as an OPTION.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523509A statement of fact (objective truth) is a fallacy when discussing matters of taste, aka purely subjective.

Indeed.

Two Fishes has suddenly become full of shit.

I blame alcohol or possibly brain-damage. Maybe both.

Because 5e is the DnD the Hobby deserves, but not the one it needs now.

Sorry, had to write it.

Quote from: One Horse Town;523511I blame alcohol or possibly brain-damage. Maybe both.

Brain-damage? How Edwardsian of you.

Quote from: Benoist;523513Brain-damage? How Edwardsian of you.

I like to think that i can speak in a language my intended audience can understand.

Well IMO D&D sucked before 4e, GURPS is fucked, Rolemaster is fucked.

There. Am I playing the game better to your liking?

0/5. Stay after lesson tomorrow and please ask your parents to come as well.

Quote from: One Horse Town;523516I like to think that i can speak in a language my intended audience can understand.

Really OHT, lowering yourself like that? Leave the wallowing in filth to us. You must remain pure, so that your party poopering has the bearing of honest criticism of our cretinry .

Quote from: Rincewind1;5235180/5. Stay after lesson tomorrow and please ask your parents to come as well.

Here. Have another shot of Vodka.

Hear that OHT? Our rants get 0/5.

Quote from: two_fishes;523517Well IMO D&D sucked before 4e, GURPS is fucked, Rolemaster is fucked.

There. Am I playing the game better to your liking?

Um, lets see...

In my post, i said IMO (that is in my opinion for the hard of understanding) that various games are fucked.

Now in your reply, you said that i was objectively wrong on 2 counts.

I then said prove it.

Now you're wriggling like the worm you are.

We had Forge apologists years back that were better than you. Tony B. Shit, Levi made a better job of it.

Prove that i am objectively wrong.

Quote from: two_fishes;523520Hear that OHT? Our rants get 0/5.

If you think Rincewind counts, you're really in trouble.

Quote from: One Horse Town;523522If you think Rincewind counts, you're really in trouble.

Gee, thanks. And here I was, going to give you 3 out of 5 (1 for my bias for the games you dislike, 2 for the "pure emotions").

I guess no stars for you as well, you big meanie.