To elaborate a bit - I believe that there is space in RPGs for certain storytelling. It just needs to go alongside (rather then instead) the simulation. And both sides might be playing same thing, without knowing. A GM might consider the campaign a hero's journey on a quest of self - discovery, while the Player might see the same campaign as going around, doing fun and killing shit.

The key is to allow a certain leeway with what we'd call "tropes". You aren't creating a commercial work - the main character does not need to survive all dangers automatically, because you have mortgage to pay and planned out 5 next novels with him already.

Quote from: ggroy;523125Wonder if there is a deeper psychological reason as to why such a story structure is popular for centuries (if not millenia) in written fiction literature.

Probably there are neurological reasons related to things like how many items our short term memory can hold, etc. Pyscholinguistics was a fascinating course I took in college. Scientists are still exploring that area.

But it is mainly because it is because the techniques are proven to work over many many generations. With proven to work meaning it becomes popular and thus repeated by others. And this has been magnified in recent centuries because of technological advances in communications. People can share insights and results more easily. The internet is yet another leap in that it reduces the friction of disseminating creative works to nearly zero.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523124Little has some decent ideas in regard to 40k (although the Black Crusade's chapter on Minions is both full of good and full of terrible). It's just 3e that should never land in his small hands.

His help on Deathwatch gives us Hordes, Squad Mode/Solo Mode, Cohesion, all sorts of metagame rules focused either on emulating the tabletop or giving narrative punch to the proceedings.  No thanks, can do without his "help".

Jay Little's worse then Ron Edwards.  Edwards himself is irrelevant and well-known as a crackpot, Little, however, brought that philosophy to two of gaming's biggest IPs.

Quote from: CRKrueger;523133His help on Deathwatch gives us Hordes, Squad Mode/Solo Mode, Cohesion, all sorts of metagame rules focused either on emulating the tabletop or giving narrative punch to the proceedings.  No thanks, can do without his "help".

Jay Little's worse then Ron Edwards.  Edwards himself is irrelevant and well-known as a crackpot, Little, however, brought that philosophy to two of gaming's biggest IPs.

I like the concept of Hordes ;p. YWMV (Your Warhammer May Vary).

Damn straight with the WFRP though. Let us join in the hatred rather then bicker, eh?

We play a game of ever diminishing size, a hobby who's glory days are long behind it but one that we all love and have spent a massive part of our lives playing. Yet here we are arguing about differences that an outside observer would consider meaningless.

I think its sad when people focus on the 20% of stuff they disagree on rather than the 80% of the stuff they have in common.

What the hell is with people doomsaying and RPGs.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523165What the hell is with people doomsaying and RPGs.

People becoming more cynical as they get older?

Quote from: ggroy;523166People becoming more cynical as they get older?

I was cynical when I was 8

but I have just done a 12 hour day picked up a load of crappy work that I neither want to do nor will get credit for completing and I realised its too late to submit a game for GenCon because the closing date was March 19th not 29th like I thought and I was running a Murder Mystery last weekend so didn;t have time to do it

Quote from: ggroy;523166People becoming more cynical as they get older?

The thing is, that perhaps the "cocaine days of D&D" never really existed. It always was a niche hobby, and as I had said a countless times - unless RPGs become next chess due to a major cultural shift that will place RPGs as true intellectual's pastime, they shall continue to be so. Let's face it - we will always be nerds.

But the hobby is growing - and not just in Poland. With the advent of cRPGs, people, generally speaking, are a bit more...expecting of RPGs. It ain't the Golden Age (yet, imo), it may never come, but it ain't the bloody Last Days neither.

Quote from: jibbajibba;523168I was cynical when I was 8

Nothing to be proud of, mate . It's a fucking curse, no matter what popculture may be telling people right now

Quote from: Rincewind1;523169The thing is, that perhaps the "cocaine days of D&D" never really existed.  It always was a niche hobby

Possibly.

Perhaps the same can be said about the many hobbies I was into when I was younger.  (For example, stuff like: crappy heavy metal and punk rock music, fast guitar solos, crappy horror movies, arcade video games, etc ...).

Back in the day, I didn't realize they were small niches.  It was only years later and in hindsight, that I came to such a realization.

Quote from: ggroy;523125Wonder if there is a deeper psychological reason as to why such a story structure is popular for centuries (if not millenia) in written fiction literature.

Aristotle understood and answered your question two thousand years ago in Poetics

Quote from: jibbajibba;523162We play a game of ever diminishing size, a hobby who's glory days are long behind it but one that we all love and have spent a massive part of our lives playing. Yet here we are arguing about differences that an outside observer would consider meaningless.

I think its sad when people focus on the 20% of stuff they disagree on rather than the 80% of the stuff they have in common.

Actually I think you are wrong here if only by my own personal experience. Let me paint a picture for you. I have been playing RPGs since the mid-80's. I introduced my wife to RPGs somewhere in the late-90's. She can tell the difference between BECM--Game I used to introduce her--and Vampire. While we were both part of the alternative culture, she wanted nothing to do with Vampire, but will happily sling d20s while drinking some wine today. She doesn't consider herself a gamer, still doesn't understand saving throws (in any edition), but wants nothing to do with people sitting down trying to tell some collaborative story.

Quote from: JasperAK;523182Actually I think you are wrong here if only by my own personal experience. Let me paint a picture for you. I have been playing RPGs since the mid-80's. I introduced my wife to RPGs somewhere in the late-90's. She can tell the difference between BECM--Game I used to introduce her--and Vampire. While we were both part of the alternative culture, she wanted nothing to do with Vampire, but will happily sling d20s while drinking some wine today. She doesn't consider herself a gamer, still doesn't understand saving throws (in any edition), but wants nothing to do with people sitting down trying to tell some collaborative story.

Hate to break it her but she's the very definition of a gamer. Heck she sounds very similar to myself in fact. I happen to understand the basic rules a bit better than her, but really only because I have a natural talent for basic math and was forced into running a game years ago, and people seem to like my style even though I think I'm a horrible GM and prefer being a player any day of the week.  I run stuff because I enjoy making my friends happy.

Quote from: Marleycat;523206Hate to break it her but she's the very definition of gamer. Heck she sounds very similar to myself in fact.

Heck, I try to tell her she is a gamer. But in all seriousness, her only reason for rolling dice is the friends they bring to drink and watch movies with. She would probably be happy if she never had to roll for init (which one do I roll?) again. Six ability scores, race, and class are too much trouble. She just wants to know if she is wielding a two-hand Axe or Sword--she can't be bothered to make the choice, I HAVE TO MAKE IT FOR HER. Don't get me started on skills.

So yeah, she rolls dice, but she would much rather the same people sit on our couches and watch something like Buckaroo Bansai in the Eighth Dimension or Bruce Campbell in Army of Darkness. Or Monty Python. I love my wife. Bet she wouldn't expect me to admit that...