Well, here we go. I mention trolling, and awakened Retards That Be.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523052Well, here we go. I mention trolling, and awakened Retards That Be.

It was a foregone conclusion. These guys have to show up to defend their bankrupt ideas. People like me cannot be suffered to exist and actually articulate a cogent thought that would prove them wrong. Simulationism doesn't even exist, didn't you know? I'm delusional, I "build a story anyway", and I should wake up to join the ranks of the Gamists and Narrativists who are so deep and deconstructed the hobby for the plebeians like me to enjoy "coherent" games better, despite ourselves.

And I'm singled out as the elitist? LOL! Fucking losers.

Quote from: two_fishes;523019The key element of RPGs that is different from other methods of storytelling is that some or all the player are attempting imagine the story as directly experienced, as if they were themselves participants in the events of the story.

That's right: the key element of RPGs is that they're not storytelling. If you are experiencing the events depicted by the game live as they unfold before you, as you inhabit your character's mind, or role play the environment in reaction to the PCs' actions, by definition, you are not recounting events from a storyteller's standpoint, and thus, not "telling a story".

You're the ones engaging in twisting the meaning of words in order to change RPGs into something they're not. Do yourself a favor: write novels. Make movies. Play story games. Enjoy the fuck out of whatever it is that you do enjoy doing or playing. Just stop trying to wreck the games I like. I'd be grateful.

Quote from: estar;523037It would more accurate to describe them as experiencing a fantasy novel. I rarely encounter anybody who wants to play out the exact plot of their favorites. Rather they want to take the same setting and elements and try their own plans. Even sometimes play the same characters but in their own way. It is the primary reason why licensed properties do well in the RPG industry.

I agree, and I'm sure Lew Pulsipher would too. What interested me more is that this is a debate/argument that has been going on for more than 30 years!

Quote from: two_fishes;523019The key element of RPGs that is different from other methods of storytelling is that some or all the player are attempting imagine the story as directly experienced, as if they were themselves participants in the events of the story.

No. No. Facepalm no. The key difference is that nobody participating knows exactly what is happen. That's why it's a game. If that were the key difference then playing an RPG would be like reading a novel told in the second person.

QuoteRandomization and asymmetry of information between players is used to try to replicate the uncertainty that characters might feel in the moment.

It's actual uncertainty!

I mean, you can play an RPG without any uncertainty, but then it really is collaborative storytelling. There's a fuzzy line somewhere between diceless roleplaying and improv theater, but that's the distinction.

Quote from: estar;523035Yup it makes tabletops RPGs are a great experience. However the randomization that the mechanics uses destroys story structure making tabletop RPGs a poor tool to construct a story. This is compounded by the fact that players in a tabletop RPGs are free actors. Again making for a great experience but a poor tool to construct a story.

I agree that there is a tension between the idea of "experiencing the events" and making a story, but RPGs nevertheless tread that line. Like I said, one is often sacrificed in favour of the other. But different RPGs make those sacrifices at different points, and to add further confusion, different people perceive the same game element differently; two people may come to very different conclusions about whether an element that helps guide story structure (say Fate points, for e.g.) actually does intrude on their feeling of direct experience.  Many, many RPG gamers are not satisfied with simply "experience events" but want to specifically "experience story". As Glazer pointed out, this has been a desire within the hobby for a very long time, a blanket denial that this is not what RPGs do is not going to make this desire go away. It is what RPGs do because it's what so many RPG gamers want them to do.

QuoteThe reason people confuse the two is because of the work the referee does for the campaign. Since tabletop RPGs are largely a written medium various writing techniques are helpful although their ultimate application is very different from that of a novel, play, or movie.

I think the links between tabletop RPGs and other storytelling media are deeper than just being written media.

Quote from: Benoist;523061You're the ones engaging in twisting the meaning of words in order to change RPGs into something they're not. Do yourself a favor: write novels. Make movies. Play story games. Enjoy the fuck out of whatever it is that you do enjoy doing or playing. Just stop trying to wreck the games I like. I'd be grateful.

No. I play role-playing games. I love them, they bring joy to my life. You have no more ownership over the hobby than I do. If you'd stop telling me i'm doing it wrong and I should GTFO of "your" hobby, I'd be grateful.

Quote from: two_fishes;523077No. I play role-playing games. I love them, they bring joy to my life. You have no more ownership over the hobby than I do. If you'd stop telling me i'm doing it wrong and I should GTFO of "your" hobby, I'd be grateful.

Yeah. Nice twisting of what I was saying again.

You can play whatever the FUCK you want, however the FUCK you want to play it. ENJOY! What I don't want is for your bullshit to change the games I like. Play Dogs in the Vineyard if you enjoy that. Hell, play D&D however you want to! But leave D&D, the game, the FUCK alone.

Quote from: two_fishes;523019RPGs is absolutely a story-telling medium. The players, including the GM, collaborate on fashioning a story. At the end of a session, all the players can reflect back on the story that each of them played a part in revealing. The key element of RPGs that is different from other methods of storytelling is that some or all the player are attempting imagine the story as directly experienced, as if they were themselves participants in the events of the story.

So you agree that the story being created is an aftereffect of the gameplay at the table. The story is the result of the gameplay, it is not what exists already which the Players  are participating in to 'reveal'.

Quote from: Benoist;523078Yeah. Nice twisting of what I was saying again.

You can play whatever the FUCK you want, however the FUCK you want to play it. ENJOY! What I don't want is for your bullshit to change the games I like. Play Dogs in the Vineyard if you enjoy that. Hell, play D&D however you want to! But leave D&D, the game, the FUCK alone.

Hey, I don't write D&D. I just buy it and play it. There's a new edition in the works, I'ma gonna advocate for the sorts of things I like to be in it. It's my game as much as it is yours.

A character cannot "experience a story" any more then you or I go through life experiencing a story.  A character "experiences events" just like we do.  That is roleplaying.

As soon as story enters the picture, it is from the player, not the character, therefore, by definition, it's not roleplaying.

Now no one roleplays 100% of the time, there's lots of OOC/social stuff going on and sometimes you think in terms of game rules because you're playing a game, but those are just tangential to the primary goal of experiencing events as a character.

You want something else, fine, that's awesome.  Play a game that gives you that story-fulfilling metagame you desire.  If you're seeking Story, the game that meets your needs should be termed a Storygame, plain and simple.  Sure you can roleplay also, it's the blend of the two you like, but don't pretend narrative games aren't RPG+Story, which is not the same as RPG and shouldn't be billed as such.

Quote from: Imp;523075It's actual uncertainty!

Exactly. The game is experienced in the moment. You can't skip ahead to the next chapter, because the future is unwritten.

This is one of the reasons I put so much effort into ramping up stochasticity in the campaigns I referee.

The adventurers in our Flashing Blades campaign were approached by an ex-pat French nobleman who wants them to assist in taking his half-brother's castle and proving him a traitor. Years ago the nobleman tried to kill his half-brother and take his title, with the help of a mercenary named Fortunio. When the attempt failed, the nobleman went into exile in Savoy and the mercenary went to work for the half-brother. After killing a friend of a friend of the adventurers, allegedly on behalf of the half-brother, Fortunio the mercenary joined forces once again with the nobleman.

Or did he?

Fortunio may be playing one of the brothers against the other. I can make a case for him helping either one further his schemes. And I'm purposefully leaving it undefined - indeed, I'm going to leave it to the dice to decide, at the opportune moment. Should the adventurers join the nobleman in seizing the half-brother's chateau, only then will I attempt to determine if Fortunio is playing them false or not.

I have no concern about which one makes 'a better story' or 'a satisfying conclusion.' The situation simply is what it is, and how it plays out is as much a mystery to me as it is to the players at this point.

Quote from: jeff37923;523079So you agree that the story being created is an aftereffect of the gameplay at the table. The story is the result of the gameplay, it is not what exists already which the Players  are participating in to 'reveal'.

Oh, okay. So if I decide to improvise a story, making it up as I tell it, I am not a storyteller until the last word of the story is spoken, since the story doesn't "exist" until the entirety of it is revealed. Until that moment, I'm just a "talker" talking about a series of imagined events.

Seriously, that is what this sort of hair-splitting sounds like to me.

Quote from: CRKrueger;523084A character cannot "experience a story" any more then you or I go through life experiencing a story.  A character "experiences events" just like we do.  That is roleplaying.

As soon as story enters the picture, it is from the player, not the character, therefore, by definition, it's not roleplaying.

Clearly you are a Story-Denialist.

Quote from: two_fishes;523082There's a new edition in the works, I'm gonna advocate for the sorts of things I like to be in it.

And I'm going to fight your advocating of storybullshit All. The Fucking. Way.

I hope you get the options you want to make you enjoy the game more. I really do. But I certainly won't let you repeat the failtastic fourth edition of the game. Nuh-huh. No fucking way. You Forge dudes had your turn. You failed. It's time for you to get on with the program.

The game is on, motherfucker.