I have to thank you for being very patient with me on this. It doesn't look like much really, but this stuff is so pervasive now, it's almost impossible to talk about RPGs without being confronted with words and ideas which, at the end of the day, do not make a lot of sense, when you really take the time to stop and think about them.

So. Thank you. I appreciate that a great deal.

Quote from: JasperAK;522968I think in another thread somewhere you were also participating in a discussion concerning "story" and "narrative, " and I could not clearly pick up on what your point was, but this post makes it clear for me.

While I am not clear on how this Forge Narrativism necessarily affects game design, I can see the difference between a player viewing his character as a player in a play that has not been written yet and a player taking on a role and acting as his character would. The former knows he is in a play, not being able to divorce himself from the metagame; the latter just acts and reacts.

This leads me to another thought. The only sessions that really matter to me are the ones that we still talk about. I think this is because a compelling story had developed. None of the more adventure path or railroad sessions resonate today with us today. It is those sessions where the feeling that the characters had an effect that was not predetermined that we seem to remember most. I think that is because the characters became alive, more so because of the stories we told afterwards.

I think a quick example is that during an early adventure I DMed, a halfling rogue climbed a tree in the middle of a battle to get a better view--couldn't see over any of the front-line fighters. This took several rounds of not attacking and by the time she was ready to attack the battle was over, but the fighters had taken a lot of damage. It became a long running gag that the halfling would climb a tree to avoid danger because of that one action. It became a story through the retelling. When it happened it was a simple tactical maneuver. She didn't climb a tree to be talked about later; it was a natural action that helped define her character for the other players.

Now the full point is that I was running a very bad railroad. I was trying to weave a story of the world. The players had some control but I basically led them around by the nose. No one remembers what happened during that adventure or much about the world--if they do they don't bother talking about it--but they still to this day laugh about the coward halfling climbing a tree, against Julia's protests.

Now I separate my creative fiction from my gaming. When I wear the DM cap, I just sit back and set the stage and let the players enjoy. If we talk about it afterwards, I think I did my job well.

That's it. Once this stuff clicks with you, it changes your perspective completely.

Quote from: Benoist;522986I have to thank you for being very patient with me on this. It doesn't look like much really, but this stuff is so pervasive now, it's almost impossible to talk about RPGs without being confronted with words and ideas which, at the end of the day, do not make a lot of sense, when you really take the time to stop and think about them.

So. Thank you. I appreciate that a great deal.

No problem I am pretty casual about my gaming so was afraid to even register here, let alone become a regular poster.  I lurked for 2-3 years and just feared you and Pundit, thinking my point of view would be dismissed as irrelevant but you totally prove me wrong and explain your point of view in terms I understand and respect mine at the same time.

Thank you sir for taking the time to talk with me.

Well I can be stubborn, and an asshole too, on occasion. But I'm a pretty decent guy I think, when I don't let my temper get the better of me. Don't be afraid. It's cool to disagree, even argue. Look at Mark: he trolled me pretty hard today, but I know he's a pretty decent dude too, when he wants to be.

Quote from: Benoist;522990Well I can be stubborn, and an asshole too, on occasion. But I'm a pretty decent guy I think, when I don't let my temper get the better of me. Don't be afraid. It's cool to disagree, even argue. Look at Mark: he trolled me pretty hard today, but I know he's a pretty decent dude too, when he wants to be.

Yep, I even agree with him conditionally, said so upthread even, iirc.

Then again I'm replying in multiple threads currently so I've lost track given I'm posting from my phone.

You're good people in my book Benoist, heck I'm stubborn and a bitch about stuff I care about, ask my friends.

RPGs is absolutely a story-telling medium. The players, including the GM, collaborate on fashioning a story. At the end of a session, all the players can reflect back on the story that each of them played a part in revealing. The key element of RPGs that is different from other methods of storytelling is that some or all the player are attempting imagine the story as directly experienced, as if they were themselves participants in the events of the story.

The structure of an RPG tries to assist this imaginative leap. Randomization and asymmetry of information between players is used to try to replicate the uncertainty that characters might feel in the moment. Characters are described in ways that give the players a clear understanding of their capabilities.

RPGs, in pursuit of of creating that direct participatory experience, often sacrifice what might be considered good literary structure, but they rarely abandon it entirely. Most (but not all) players still desire key elements of story structure in the game. They want rising tension, climax, and resolution, or they want character arcs.  The degree to which players feel that managing elements of story structure intrudes upon their sense of participatory experience varies from player to player, sometimes a great deal.

Quote from: two_fishes;523019The key element of RPGs that is different from other methods of storytelling is that some or all the player are attempting imagine the story as directly experienced, as if they were themselves participants in the events of the story.

So the fact that tabletop RPGs are simulations using the rules of a game doesn't enter into it at all?

Quote from: estar;523026So the fact that tabletop RPGs are simulations using the rules of a game doesn't enter into it at all?

Wouldn't simulation be an aid to assisting an imagined direct experience of events?

I happened to be reading an old copy of White Dwarf earlier today, and found this:

QuoteD&D players can be divided into two groups, those who want to play the game as a game and those who want to play it as a fantasy novel ... In California, for example, this leads to referees who make up more than half of what happens, what is encountered and so on, as the game progresses, rather than doing it beforehand...

The article then goes on to explain when the author (Lew Pulsipher) prefers to 'play the game as a game'. It was published in June/July 1977 and appeared in White Dwarf 1...

Quote from: two_fishes;523028Wouldn't simulation be an aid to assisting an imagined direct experience of events?

Yup it makes tabletops RPGs are a great experience. However the randomization that the mechanics uses destroys story structure making tabletop RPGs a poor tool to construct a story. This is compounded by the fact that players in a tabletop RPGs are free actors. Again making for a great experience but a poor tool to construct a story.

Just like real life some RPG experiences can, after the fact, be turned into great stories. But also like real life that many RPG experiences don't make interesting stories however fun and interesting they were.

If you look at collaborative fiction, which is a form that seen explosive growth due to the internet, you will see that they use very different techniques than what tabletop RPGs have.

The reason people confuse the two is because of the work the referee does for the campaign. Since tabletop RPGs are largely a written medium various writing techniques are helpful although their ultimate application is very different from that of a novel, play, or movie.

Roleplaying games are a simulation of individual characters using game mechanics freely interacting with a setting in a campaign adjudicated by a referee.

Quote from: two_fishes;523028Wouldn't simulation be an aid to assisting an imagined direct experience of events?

To some people it would. But to others a game is more like a pretend vacation than a story or movie. You are experiencing life through a character's eyes, but there is no desire for story in the sense of a narrative.

Quote from: Glazer;523033those who want to play it as a fantasy novel

It would more accurate to describe them as experiencing a fantasy novel. I rarely encounter anybody who wants to play out the exact plot of their favorites. Rather they want to take the same setting and elements and try their own plans. Even sometimes play the same characters but in their own way. It is the primary reason why licensed properties do well in the RPG industry.

Quote from: Benoist;522983Whenever I speak about that kind of thing, I try to qualify it in RPG terms or what actually happens at a game table. So I might say "the events in the campaign," or "the exchanges between the PCs and myself", or "the decisions of the PCs led to this or that development in the campaign". Instead of story or plot I'll speak of campaign, the stuff I prepped, the background, the game world, the adventure etc. I speak in RPG terms. You see what I mean?

To expand on this further, and to give shorter terminologies (as requested by Marleycat), I feel it's best to work with what we already have, too: Encounter, and Roleplay. You don't get the next plot point of the story; you have another encounter in the world. You don't play out your telling of the character's story in response to the plot; you play out your character's role in response to the encounter. This way it keeps the term RPG distinctive by emphasizing the act of playing a role of an individual within a setting, and further it reminds us that this game is about being in the present.

But that's my opinion on the way to clarify terms. And it wonderfully avoids reinventing the wheel. Storytelling games have emphases upon telling a story and worry about resolving plot points. Roleplaying games have emphases upon playing a role and worrying about experiencing encounters. Different experiences sought that are self evident within their name.

Quote from: Opaopajr;523042To expand on this further, and to give shorter terminologies (as requested by Marleycat), I feel it's best to work with what we already have, too: Encounter, and Roleplay. You don't get the next plot point of the story; you have another encounter in the world. You don't play out your telling of the character's story in response to the plot; you play out your character's role in response to the encounter. This way it keeps the term RPG distinctive by emphasizing the act of playing a role of an individual within a setting, and further it reminds us that this game is about being in the present.

But that's my opinion on the way to clarify terms. And it wonderfully avoids reinventing the wheel. Storytelling games have emphases upon telling a story and worry about resolving plot points. Roleplaying games have emphases upon playing a role and worrying about experiencing encounters. Different experiences sought that are self evident within their name.

Except there is no definite line of distinction between 'storytelling' and 'roleplaying' in your definition; they are literally the same thing. You imply that roleplaying games aren't about resolving plot points (when that is one of the most important parts of any campaign more involved than 'there are orcs, kill them because they're different') or that storytelling isn't about playing a role or experiencing an encounter. There is so much overlap between both of your terms that they're pointless.

Basically my point is that useless distinctions based upon game preference elitism are useless.


Story is not a dirty word, you guys don't have to get all huffy and puffy and offended that people use (correct) terminology that you don't want to apply because you feel it would lessen the value of your pretending to be elves and wizards and shit.