If it exists in the setting, the characters there will game it. If every wound heals in a day, you'll find some strange behaviors. Not every GM wants to deal with that. Ignoring these consequences is easy for some, but other GMs want to run a deeper game where the characters are self-aware.

It's a case where I in particular want the rules to be the "physics" of the setting, as I've heard some people put it.

Quote from: mcbobbo;592875Ehhh, okay.  But it's a setting with elves and stuff in it.  Innate magical healing shouldn't be a dealbreaker.

So you don't have a problem with a PC who says they jump that 80 foot crevasse?  I mean, the game has elves in it, so why not?

Sorry to pick on you, but every time someone trots out that excuse as a way to handwave any and all sense of realism, it irritates me, because we all draw the line somewhere.  Drawing the line at "I think that you shouldn't be able to heal all of your hp back after just one rest when the orc you just fought stabbed you through your stomach with a critical hit, which brought you from 16 hp down to 1.  You were almost dead." is an unreasonable position to take that should just be dismissed because "elves".


*Edit*  And I'm fully aware that HP are an abstraction, and particularly at higher levels represent things other than wounds.  But it's safe to say that in the example I gave above, the HP loss was due to a wound, and not something like fatigue.  The loss was instant, and caused by a critical hit by a sword.  That sort of hp loss shouldn't be healed to full automatically just by sleeping for 8 hours.  Not without breaking my sense of realism pretty horribly.

Quote from: mcbobbo;592875Ehhh, okay.  But it's a setting with elves and stuff in it.  Innate magical healing shouldn't be a dealbreaker.

It's more about 'Why does this particular fighter that has no supernatural abilities at all' heal from being implaed by a dozen spears in one day?

Sure, some individuals in a fantasy setting might heal super fast, but 'regular humans' don't.

ITT- basic misunderstanding of the hit point abstraction and over use of the word realism.

Quote from: Gib;592884ITT- basic misunderstanding of the hit point abstraction and over use of the word realism.

Allthough some people will conceptualize the hit point abstraction in different ways, I still feel that a 'normal human warrior' that gets beaten to death's door with a mace should take more than a few days to be 100 recovered---without magic/supernatural assistance.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;592881So you don't have a problem with a PC who says they jump that 80 foot crevasse?  I mean, the game has elves in it, so why not?"

That honestly sounds like a very Legolas thing to do.  I could see Hercules doing it as well.  There's also Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon springing to mind.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;592881Sorry to pick on you, but every time someone trots out that excuse as a way to handwave any and all sense of realism, it irritates me, because we all draw the line somewhere.

No apology necessary.  We totally agree.  I'm just pointing out where I draw that line, and why.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;592881Drawing the line at "I think that you shouldn't be able to heal all of your hp back after just one rest when the orc you just fought stabbed you through your stomach with a critical hit, which brought you from 16 hp down to 1.  You were almost dead." is an unreasonable position to take that should just be dismissed because "elves".

Yeah, and you may have missed it above, but I would expect to obfuscate that stomach wound into something less specific.  Yes if you call it a stomach wound, then the PC is dead, realistically.  Because, lets be honest here, nobody in that time period survives a stomach wound.  Infection sets in and you die, horribly, painfully, etc.

Quote from: Bill;592882It's more about 'Why does this particular fighter that has no supernatural abilities at all' heal from being implaed by a dozen spears in one day?

I see the notion that the fighter has no supernatural abilities as more versimilitude-breaking, actually.  They're heroes.  Some of what they can do absolutely has to be superhuman, or they're boring for one and they're not going to stack up to the casters for another.

If you want to play mundanes, then I'd suggest that fantasy is a bad place to do it.

But that's a preference thing.

Quote from: Bill;592882Sure, some individuals in a fantasy setting might heal super fast, but 'regular humans' don't.

Right, so it's two-fold for me:

1) Don't let the damage be depicted as lethal until it is, mechanically.  Or adapt your depictions to the mechanics, if you will.

2) Assume that people who can heal this way are tapping into some form of healing magic that they do not understand, "because elves".

Quote from: mcbobbo;592887That honestly sounds like a very Legolas thing to do.

I don't think Legolas ever made an 80 foot jump, or anywhere near that.  To put this in context, this is an 80 foot boat.

QuoteI could see Hercules doing it as well.  

Hercules was the son of a god.  That's hardly mundane.

QuoteThere's also Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon springing to mind.

Wushu films are not a very good example of mundane actions.

QuoteYeah, and you may have missed it above, but I would expect to obfuscate that stomach wound into something less specific.  Yes if you call it a stomach wound, then the PC is dead, realistically.  Because, lets be honest here, nobody in that time period survives a stomach wound.  Infection sets in and you die, horribly, painfully, etc.

No, people live from stomach wounds all the time.  In the actual game play, the DM rolls a critical hit and adds flavor (or rolls on a location table) where the wound hit.  The point isn't location, but that a character loses almost all of his or her hp due to one attack.  Not fatigue or any other abstraction.  But due to an attack directly.  For me, saying that they heal completely just by sleeping is just way too unrealistic.  And to have someone say, "That's dumb, because elves." is a bit condescending and dismissive, because we all draw lines of realism in our games.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;592890I don't think Legolas ever made an 80 foot jump, or anywhere near that.  To put this in context, this is an 80 foot boat.

It isn't that I lack context, I just disagree.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;592890Hercules was the son of a god.  That's hardly mundane.
...
Wushu films are not a very good example of mundane actions.

And fireballs are?

We disagree here, and you're going to have to try something else if you're really looking to do more than communicate that we disagree...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;592890No, people live from stomach wounds all the time.

In a world without antibiotics, I don't believe you're correct.  Remember, you're excluding magical healing in your versimilitude test.  So they have to have ruptured stomach organs and survive it without medical aid, it just takes a long time.

Not realistic.

Also, even with today's medicine, black blood from the abdomen is a really, really solid indicator of impending death.

Stomach wounds are really lethal in pre-modern settings, and pretty damn dangerous in modern ones without swift professional treatment and a good deal of luck.

I like a more cinematic game myself, with more durable characters, which is where Healing Surges and similar concepts come into play.  However, I also recognize the value in characters suffering longer-term injuries that can't just be shrugged off between scenes, but rather require long-term rest or magic to recover from.  The issue comes down to one of book-keeping.  You can have both elements in a game, but unless someone comes up with a really elegant solution, I think it would add an extra layer of record keeping.

Case in point:  I worked up a set of house rules for damage for OSRIC/1st edition AD&D a while back.  I don't have them with me at the moment, but here's the gist:

Every damage roll you take inflicts 1 point of 'long-term' damage, and the rest is short-term damage.  Short-term damage can be completely recovered by taking a short rest, but long-term damage must be healed normally, one hit point a day, or by magic.  There were some other rules for damage, such as any wound dropping you to 0 or negative hit points being considered all 'long-term' damage, etc.

To keep track of this, the easiest method would be to have a hit point grid on the character sheet, basically a bunch of boxes.  Mark off 'short-term' damage with a slash, 'long-term' damage with an X.

It's not a huge amount of extra work, and I suspect that players, seeing the advantage of more durable characters, would be willing to do it, but it is nevertheless extra time, extra book-keeping, and an extra layer of complexity if you are trying to get new players involved.

Quote from: mcbobbo;592902It isn't that I lack context, I just disagree.

So someone making that jump without magical assistance falls into your accepted realism?  I doubt that.

QuoteAnd fireballs are?

Fireballs are magic.  I've said that I have no problems with magical instant healing.  But instant healing naturally?  Sorry.  You're essentially saying that natural healing should be able to be instant because magic exists.  That's...pretty off.  

QuoteIn a world without antibiotics, I don't believe you're correct.  Remember, you're excluding magical healing in your versimilitude test.  So they have to have ruptured stomach organs and survive it without medical aid, it just takes a long time.

Not realistic.

Also, even with today's medicine, black blood from the abdomen is a really, really solid indicator of impending death.

Stomach wounds are really lethal in pre-modern settings, and pretty damn dangerous in modern ones without swift professional treatment and a good deal of luck.

I suggest you go to badassoftheweek.com and read up on some of those people, particularly those in pre-modern times.  People are a lot more resilient than you think.  Remember, PCs aren't representative of the average person.  They are the exception, much the same as the people on that list are the exception.

The problem with HPs has always been it's a nebulous stat that sometimes represents physical damage, and sometimes represents loss of stamina/fatigue.

The 5e HD mechanic is obviously looking at HPs mainly as loss of stamina/fatigue in which case the rules are not that bad, but they are still too fast.

Where it falls down though, is once you actually get wounded, or even literally on death's door, you're back in the saddle perfectly fine, no more then 48 hours later.  That's Full.Retard.

[pedant]
Stomach wound without magic, modern surgery or antibiotics?  Yeah, shove a fork up your ass, you're done, the good news is you might take a week to die.[/pedant]

badassoftheweek - yeah for every 10 million people who have gotten both arms chopped off since the beginning of time, there's that one guy who holds them in his teeth while he walks 75 miles through snow to safety and has them successfully reattached and goes on to play the piano.  Roll that 10 million sided die.  Or use Fate/Luck points.

Quote from: CRKrueger;592918The problem with HPs has always been it's a nebulous stat that sometimes represents physical damage, and sometimes represents loss of stamina/fatigue.

The 5e HD mechanic is obviously looking at HPs mainly as loss of stamina/fatigue in which case the rules are not that bad, but they are still too fast.

Where it falls down though, is once you actually get wounded, or even literally on death's door, you're back in the saddle perfectly fine, no more then 48 hours later.  That's Full.Retard.

[pedant]
Stomach wound without magic, modern surgery or antibiotics?  Yeah, shove a fork up your ass, you're done, the good news is you might take a week to die.[/pedant]

They are also glossing over the act that HP as pure stamina was one of the things people hated about 4E. Some people liked it, but it was one of the first things people mentioned when healing surges came up. I know a lot of these debates revolve around what is believable or realistic and so they might assume if they just offer an explanation of HP that allows for more believable and ocnsistent results people will embrace surges, but it really goes beyond that. Wile the believability angle is important to me, I really just dont like people having an innate healing mechanic in D&D. Whether it is believable or not. I prefered having slow natural healing and fast magical healing.

Quote from: mcbobbo;592887If you want to play mundanes, then I'd suggest that fantasy is a bad place to do it.

A fighter that is a skilled swordsman that can outfight most enemies with a blade does not automatically leap 80' and heal from crippling wounds in a day.

Sure, some characters are Hercules with Zeus Blood in their veins, but I don't think every fighter should be, unless thats the entire point of the setting.

Another example is lets say you have a gladiator in Dark Sun. Every gladiator should not leap 80' just because one gladiator on th aplanet happens to have a psionic leaping talent.

I am not in any way trying to be argumentative or hostile; I just can't stand the 'Magic Exists so no logic can be applied to the setting' argument.

Quote from: mcbobbo;592887If you want to play mundanes, then I'd suggest that fantasy is a bad place to do it.
.

Didn't you just get done accusing someone of excluding the middle?  Fantasy isn't all or nothing wushu and magic.

When it comes down to it I'm actually of the opinion that you have to take hit points apart and put them back together in a way that makes sense for YOU.

Anyway, this is what I use in my B/X game:

For medium and small creatures:
For use when:
1] A hit is scored with a missile weapon***a firearm or an energy weapon*.
2] A critical hit (natural 20) is scored with a muscle powered melee**weapon.
3] when a character with 0 hit points is hit with any weapon.

Roll 1d4

1. Minor Wound: 1d4 days to heal [-1 to all die rolls and - 1d4-1 to movement rate during the recovery period].

2. Major Wound: 2d8+2 days to heal [-3 to all die rolls and -1d6+1 to movement rate during recovery period].

3. Grievous Wound: d30 +10 days to heal. [-6 to all die rolls and movement reduced to 1 during recovery period]. Note: A character with a grievous wound must be stabilized within 10 rounds or make a successful saving throw otherwise the wound becomes a mortal wound, and all related conditions apply.

4. Mortal wound: Save or die. A successful save reduces the damage to a Grievous Wound with doubled recovery time. A failed save results in death in 1d6-1 rounds. AT THE REFEREE'S DISCRETION dead character may be healed by miraculous means (super science or magic) for 1d100 rounds after death.

Cowering: when fired upon with missile weapons***, an unsurprised character may hide beneath a large shield and will, in the case of a normal hit, only take normal hit point damage (e.g. 1d6 from an arrow). Critical hits are considered to have pierced the shield and result in a roll on the wound table. Whilst cowering, a character may move 1/4 the Normal rate.

Optional rule: Characters with Major or Grievous Wounds who engage in strenuous activity (e.g. combat) prior to the end of the recovery period must make a saving throw. A failed save resets the recovery period back to the beginning, and in the case of a grievous wound the character immediately becomes unconscious.