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D&D Next's disguised Healing Surges

Started by Monster Manuel, October 19, 2012, 10:15:01 AM

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Monster Manuel

October 19, 2012, 10:15:01 AM
Sorry if this is disjointed. I'm a bit sick.

Healing surges were an awful mechanic in 4e, and their resurgence in 5e is unwelcome to me. For that matter, the way Healing works in 5th edition is lame. For those who don't know, short rests let you roll a hit die, long rests give you all of your HP back. The problem is that it breaks immersion to have healing be so easy. That's what spells are for.  Modeling long term injury is now impossible, and certain types of drama will not be possible because of it.

I'm not liking the more gamelike aspects of these rules, and I hope they decide to foster immersion rather than reinstate the board game aspects that 4e had. If people wanted those things, they'd just play 4e, right?
Proud Graduate of Parallel University.

The Mosaic Oracle is on sale now. It\'s a raw, open-sourced game design Toolk/Kit based on Lurianic Kabbalah and Lambda Calculus that uses English key words to build statements. If you can tell stories, you can make it work. It fits on one page. Wait for future games if you want something basic; an implementation called Wonders and Worldlings is coming soon.

Bedrockbrendan

#1
October 19, 2012, 10:19:06 AM
Quote from: Monster Manuel;592838Sorry if this is disjointed. I'm a bit sick.

Healing surges were an awful mechanic in 4e, and their resurgence in 5e is unwelcome to me. For that matter, the way Healing works in 5th edition is lame. For those who don't know, short rests let you roll a hit die, long rests give you all of your HP back. The problem is that it breaks immersion to have healing be so easy. That's what spells are for.

I'm not liking the more gamelike aspects of these rules, and I hope they decide to foster immersion rather than reinstate the board game aspects that 4e had. If people wanted those things, they'd just play 4e, right?

I think they are trying to appeal to the 4E crowd too, but generally the game seems to have moved away from many 4E-isms. That said i agree with you that the HD mechanic in 5E has zero appeal to me, and my interest in 5E has been on the decline. But they have a tough task: bring together old school gamers, 3E/pathfinder fans and 4E players. I am not going to be angry if 5E isn't the perfect game for me. Will be interesting to see what the final product looks like.

mcbobbo

#2
October 19, 2012, 10:23:55 AM
Quote from: Monster Manuel;592838For those who don't know, short rests let you roll a hit die, long rests give you all of your HP back. The problem is that it breaks immersion to have healing be so easy. That's what spells are for.  

I'd say you can retain your immersion if you move HP damage away from physical damage, like a lot of other games have done.  Maybe you're not suffering any actual injury until you're very, very low on HPs, maybe not until you're in the negatives.

And when you look at HP that way, it might actually make more sense.  For example, a sword to the throat is no more or less lethal to a typical human at the beginning of their life than it is at their end.  Adventurers included.  The level-gives-more-HP system can't be representing simply tougher throats.  It has to also include avoiding damage in the first place, like twisting just so to change that gash into a scratch.
"It is the mark of an [intelligent] mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Monster Manuel

#3
October 19, 2012, 10:25:04 AM
My issue is that I was very excited by the first playtest packet. The second one moved so far from what I want out of the game that I was a bit shocked. It's like they were on course for awesomeness, and then went 10 miles down the wrong road when I wasn't looking.
Proud Graduate of Parallel University.

The Mosaic Oracle is on sale now. It\'s a raw, open-sourced game design Toolk/Kit based on Lurianic Kabbalah and Lambda Calculus that uses English key words to build statements. If you can tell stories, you can make it work. It fits on one page. Wait for future games if you want something basic; an implementation called Wonders and Worldlings is coming soon.

Bill

#4
October 19, 2012, 10:26:19 AM
I don't really like the 5e 'hd/surge' mechanic.

After gming and playing 4E for years now; I declare healing Surges to be a bad idea in hindsight. The oldschool healing from 1E through Pathfinder did not need any huge change.

The one thing 4E does well in regards to healing is not the Surges, its the fact many abilities heal you while you are doing something else.

That element is an improvement over 'boring cleric heals a lot'

Monster Manuel

#5
October 19, 2012, 10:28:41 AM
Quote from: mcbobbo;592844I'd say you can retain your immersion if you move HP damage away from physical damage, like a lot of other games have done.  Maybe you're not suffering any actual injury until you're very, very low on HPs, maybe not until you're in the negatives.

And when you look at HP that way, it might actually make more sense.  For example, a sword to the throat is no more or less lethal to a typical human at the beginning of their life than it is at their end.  Adventurers included.  The level-gives-more-HP system can't be representing simply tougher throats.  It has to also include avoiding damage in the first place, like twisting just so to change that gash into a scratch.

I've tried that, but I don't buy it. I now look at HP totals as 100% health. For a guy with 20 hp, a 4 hp loss represents a 20% wound. So HP is linked to wounds, just not on a 1 for 1 basis. The main issue with my approach, and with yours, is healing magic. Why does cure light wounds  work better for low level characters? That kind of thing has been a problem for a long time.
Proud Graduate of Parallel University.

The Mosaic Oracle is on sale now. It\'s a raw, open-sourced game design Toolk/Kit based on Lurianic Kabbalah and Lambda Calculus that uses English key words to build statements. If you can tell stories, you can make it work. It fits on one page. Wait for future games if you want something basic; an implementation called Wonders and Worldlings is coming soon.

Bedrockbrendan

#6
October 19, 2012, 10:28:54 AM
Quote from: Monster Manuel;592845My issue is that I was very excited by the first playtest packet. The second one moved so far from what I want out of the game that I was a bit shocked. It's like they were on course for awesomeness, and then went 10 miles down the wrong road when I wasn't looking.

I have said for a while i think their feedback is skewed toward 4E players because that is the bulk of their present website base. They do need 4E players onboard, but if you check out the responses on the wizards forum versus other rpg forums, the overall reaction is strikingly different. I think it is also the same problem that led to 4E in the first place.

Monster Manuel

#7
October 19, 2012, 10:34:47 AM
I hadn't thought of that. Good point. It sucks, though.
Proud Graduate of Parallel University.

The Mosaic Oracle is on sale now. It\'s a raw, open-sourced game design Toolk/Kit based on Lurianic Kabbalah and Lambda Calculus that uses English key words to build statements. If you can tell stories, you can make it work. It fits on one page. Wait for future games if you want something basic; an implementation called Wonders and Worldlings is coming soon.

mcbobbo

#8
October 19, 2012, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Monster Manuel;592848Why does cure light wounds  work better for low level characters? That kind of thing has been a problem for a long time.

Interesting.

I'd say, from an engineering perspective, that you should probably uncouple it from any static value, and have it trigger more surges instead.

CWL - One extra surge.

CSL - Three extra surges.

Something like that.
"It is the mark of an [intelligent] mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Sacrosanct

#9
October 19, 2012, 10:38:09 AM
Careful.  If you claim that Next's Hit Dice and 4e's Healing Surges are similar at TBP, the 4vengers get their panties in a wad and say they are nothing like it.


As for as 5e's mechanic as is, I don't like it either.  I can't help but notice that the new playtest added a few lines that specifically called out healing in that manner completely optional.  Me personally, I've already houseruled them to where you don't get HD back until after a long rest, and you don't heal any HP (let alone back to full) after a long rest.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

mcbobbo

#10
October 19, 2012, 10:40:50 AM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;592858Me personally, I've already houseruled them to where you don't get HD back until after a long rest, and you don't heal any HP (let alone back to full) after a long rest.

Why not?

Aside from the clear impact this will have on the powerlevel of the game, I can't really see what the difference is between allowing them to heal to full and allowing the cleric to heal them to full, then rest.
"It is the mark of an [intelligent] mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Monster Manuel

#11
October 19, 2012, 10:48:12 AM
The main difference between healing surges, etc, and healing magic, is that healing magic represents something that happens in-setting. Healing surges represent a metagame nothingness.
Proud Graduate of Parallel University.

The Mosaic Oracle is on sale now. It\'s a raw, open-sourced game design Toolk/Kit based on Lurianic Kabbalah and Lambda Calculus that uses English key words to build statements. If you can tell stories, you can make it work. It fits on one page. Wait for future games if you want something basic; an implementation called Wonders and Worldlings is coming soon.

Sacrosanct

#12
October 19, 2012, 10:49:34 AM
Quote from: mcbobbo;592860Why not?

Aside from the clear impact this will have on the powerlevel of the game, I can't really see what the difference is between allowing them to heal to full and allowing the cleric to heal them to full, then rest.


Because a cleric healing them is through magical means.  If I have a character who lost all but 1 hp on combat, it's too unrealistic for me to say that they naturally healed all of their wounds back in one long rest.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Bill

#13
October 19, 2012, 10:56:06 AM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;592868Because a cleric healing them is through magical means.  If I have a character who lost all but 1 hp on combat, it's too unrealistic for me to say that they naturally healed all of their wounds back in one long rest.

This is true for me as well.

I prefer a 'gritier' healing system where it is more clear when your warrior has been stabbed fifteen times, and when he is just tired.

Even Conan had to heal naturally.

In 4E, The non magic healing should all have been Temp. HP, not actual HP healed.

Its a flavor issue with me.

mcbobbo

#14
October 19, 2012, 10:57:50 AM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;592868Because a cleric healing them is through magical means.  If I have a character who lost all but 1 hp on combat, it's too unrealistic for me to say that they naturally healed all of their wounds back in one long rest.

Ehhh, okay.  But it's a setting with elves and stuff in it.  Innate magical healing shouldn't be a dealbreaker.
"It is the mark of an [intelligent] mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
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