Yep, you read that right.  Just finished our 9 hour session, able to complete all of module A1 using the most recent playtest materials.  But the big twist?  One of the PCs was an AD&D1e cleric, playing right along with the 5e PCs.

We had a brand new member join our group today, and he hasn't played D&D in about 20 years.  At first he wanted to just observe, and see how our style is (which is very much old school).  Soon, though, he wanted to join, and didn't want to have to learn the Next classes and whatnot.  So he joined with his 1e cleric.  I actually was open to this as the DM because I was very curious as to how that would work.

Of course there were some changes, but these were actually very easy.  Convert AC to ascending, don't worry about a to hit matrix, and throw out Saving throws and use the ability modifier instead, and that was pretty much it.  I was expecting a lot more, but really that was all that was required.  He kept hit points, spell system, etc all from 1e in the 5e game.

I won't go into detail about the playest feedback for this adventure like I've done in the past; that will be another thread.  This one is solely on my observations using a 1e PC in a 5e game.

Overall?  It worked.  I was a bit surprised.  He was underpowered, however, compared to all the other PCs, which was to be expected.  An AD&D PC doesn't have nearly as impactful special abilities as a Next character.  For example, he had a mace +1, so his damage was 1d6+1 and that was it.  No divine power or feat that allowed him to bump that up.  The PCs were all level 5 by the way.  And the spells were less powerful than the ones in Next.  Cure light wounds for instance is about half the power of the same 1st level Next spell.

So what does it take to have a 1e PC and make them work fine in Next?

* convert to ascending AC.  Easy
* throw out saving throws and use ability modifiers instead.  Easy
* either grant them some additional abilities (like channel divinity) or increase attributes.  Both pretty easy
* use Next XP table (or just level up as your group wants, as a lot of groups do)
* if you use HD, give them HD just like any other class.  Too easy.

So all in all, it was VERY easy to take a 1e character and play him in Next.  If you want a more gritty and lethal playstyle, you don't need to change that much at all.  I was a bit surprised how seamless it played out, actually.  I imagine using a different class, like a thief, would be just as easy as you could very easily keep % based skills without really throwing the whole system out of wack.

I mean, I've been using AD&D modules for my playtests and the conversions have been extremely easy to do.

That sounds rather interesting. Have you thought about running Next with characters generated in the other editions?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;692832Yep, you read that right.  Just finished our 9 hour session, able to complete all of module A1 using the most recent playtest materials.  But the big twist?  One of the PCs was an AD&D1e cleric, playing right along with the 5e PCs.

We had a brand new member join our group today, and he hasn't played D&D in about 20 years.  At first he wanted to just observe, and see how our style is (which is very much old school).  Soon, though, he wanted to join, and didn't want to have to learn the Next classes and whatnot.  So he joined with his 1e cleric.  I actually was open to this as the DM because I was very curious as to how that would work.

Of course there were some changes, but these were actually very easy.  Convert AC to ascending, don't worry about a to hit matrix, and throw out Saving throws and use the ability modifier instead, and that was pretty much it.  I was expecting a lot more, but really that was all that was required.  He kept hit points, spell system, etc all from 1e in the 5e game.

I won't go into detail about the playest feedback for this adventure like I've done in the past; that will be another thread.  This one is solely on my observations using a 1e PC in a 5e game.

Overall?  It worked.  I was a bit surprised.  He was underpowered, however, compared to all the other PCs, which was to be expected.  An AD&D PC doesn't have nearly as impactful special abilities as a Next character.  For example, he had a mace +1, so his damage was 1d6+1 and that was it.  No divine power or feat that allowed him to bump that up.  The PCs were all level 5 by the way.  And the spells were less powerful than the ones in Next.  Cure light wounds for instance is about half the power of the same 1st level Next spell.

So what does it take to have a 1e PC and make them work fine in Next?

* convert to ascending AC.  Easy
* throw out saving throws and use ability modifiers instead.  Easy
* either grant them some additional abilities (like channel divinity) or increase attributes.  Both pretty easy
* use Next XP table (or just level up as your group wants, as a lot of groups do)
* if you use HD, give them HD just like any other class.  Too easy.

So all in all, it was VERY easy to take a 1e character and play him in Next.  If you want a more gritty and lethal playstyle, you don't need to change that much at all.  I was a bit surprised how seamless it played out, actually.  I imagine using a different class, like a thief, would be just as easy as you could very easily keep % based skills without really throwing the whole system out of wack.

I mean, I've been using AD&D modules for my playtests and the conversions have been extremely easy to do.

Holy shit, It's like you are writing satire about yourself.

Quote from: hamstertamer;692851Holy shit, It's like you are writing satire about yourself.

That's the retard calling the kettle black.

I'm pretty sure you could run A1 with 3E/PF characters as easy or even easier than 5E ones. I'm not really sure what's so special here.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;692847That sounds rather interesting. Have you thought about running Next with characters generated in the other editions?

Well, at least one person decided to not completely miss the point and shit on this thread, so thanks for that.

My group doesn't play 3e or 4e, so we probably won't do that.  The point I was trying to make (not necessarily directed at you) as that we played a 5e session with a largely unmodified AD&D 1e character in the party and didn't have any game breaking issues.  The AD&D character was a bit underpowered compared to his 5e version, but that's either very easy to correct, or if you prefer a more lethal system, no change at all.  As part of the experiment, all of his abilities and spells were 1e versions, using those effects and descriptions in the 5e game.  And it worked.

It was like taking a 1e or B/X character and playing them alongside a 2e party, which many of us have done.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;692867I'm pretty sure you could run A1 with 3E/PF characters as easy or even easier than 5E ones. I'm not really sure what's so special here.

The group didn't run A1 with AD&D 1st. What he is amazed at is that a AD&D 1st character 'as is' was so easily adapted to use under D&D Next rules and was useful although underpowered.

It good to see this in actual play. Based on my experience with the retro clones I felt that Next was classic D&D compatible in the way Castle & Crusades was compatible.

The flip side of this is that AD&D modules could be used 'as is'. I would say you could probably use the original stat blocks by basing the to hit roll and saving throw on HD.

Quote from: estar;692900The group didn't run A1 with AD&D 1st. What he is amazed at is that a AD&D 1st character 'as is' was so easily adapted to use under D&D Next rules and was useful although underpowered.

I'm also not implying or inferring that 1e is somehow better than any other edition.  Just that it was an interesting experiment.

Quote from: estar;692902It good to see this in actual play. Based on my experience with the retro clones I felt that Next was classic D&D compatible in the way Castle & Crusades was compatible.

The flip side of this is that AD&D modules could be used 'as is'. I would say you could probably use the original stat blocks by basing the to hit roll and saving throw on HD.

I've played several adventures in Next over the past year, many of them with AD&D modules.  The only conversion you have to do is monster stat blocks and spells, and the adventure plays the same.  We've never had to worry about balancing encounters like 4e.

I can tell you that last night there were a few encounters where I didn't have their 5e stats handy.  So I just used the AD&D published hp and just did a quick figuring of what their AC would be and what their spells would do.  It was very quick and easy, and we didn't miss a beat, and there didn't seem to be any issues, balance wise

Quote from: Sacrosanct;692904I'm also not implying or inferring that 1e is somehow better than any other edition.  Just that it was an interesting experiment.

Nor did I take it as such.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;692904I've played several adventures in Next over the past year, many of them with AD&D modules.  The only conversion you have to do is monster stat blocks and spells, and the adventure plays the same.  We've never had to worry about balancing encounters like 4e.

I can tell you that last night there were a few encounters where I didn't have their 5e stats handy.  So I just used the AD&D published hp and just did a quick figuring of what their AC would be and what their spells would do.  It was very quick and easy, and we didn't miss a beat, and there didn't seem to be any issues, balance wise

That is good to see and will benefit D&D Next in the long run. I have some experience with this issue as I have used AD&D modules with Fantasy Hero, GURPS, Harnmaster as well as a variety of clones of D&D.

If you put in the work it possible to make a D&D rulesets work with older editions and still have new school mechanics with tactical detail and customization.

Now what would also be interesting is to take something like the sunless citadel or the Forge of Fury from 3.X and see how much of it works 'as is'

Quote from: hamstertamer;692851Holy shit, It's like you are writing satire about yourself.

Sacrosanct's Next playtest threads have consistently been useful and informative on this board. He'll have his biases, just like you, but our job as a reader is to filter those biases through our own.

Your threadcrap, however, is pointless and useless and contrary to general board policy i'm making an executive decision to tell you to stop thread-crapping.

Quote from: estar;692905Nor did I take it as such.

I apologize, that part wasn't really directed at you, but more at TCO

How easy is it for a DM to convert a 1st ed creature description to D&D Next's format on his own?

I'm talking. . .

GOBLIN: Size S; MOV 60 ft.; AC 6; HD 1; HP 5; #AT 1; D 1-6.

. . . style. How about more complex stats, with saving throws, special abilities and the like? Unique 1e critters?

Just so you know, I'm trying to determine how easy it'd be for a D&D Next DM to run the Hobby Shop Dungeon from a set of 1st ed compatible rules and descriptions to a D&DN game table.

Quote from: Benoist;692934How easy is it for a DM to convert a 1st ed creature description to D&D Next's format on his own?

I'm talking. . .

GOBLIN: Size S; MOV 60 ft.; AC 6; HD 1; HP 5; #AT 1; D 1-6.

. . . style. How about more complex stats, with saving throws, special abilities and the like? Unique 1e critters?

Just so you know, I'm trying to determine how easy it'd be for a D&D Next DM to run the Hobby Shop Dungeon from a set of 1st ed compatible rules and descriptions to a D&DN game table.

If you're relatively competent and familiar with both systems?  Pretty easy.  I sort of hinted at it earlier, but let me give you an example from last night's play.  Prior to the adventure, I put together a quick spreadsheet of each encounter area, what monsters were there, and what their key stats were in 5e terms.  That way I only needed the one piece of paper as I ran the AD&D module with 5e players instead of having to reference the bestiary each time.

well, I seemed to have forgotten to do that in room 21, the Slave Lord's Den.  In that room is the main slave lord (lvl 7 thief), five giant weasels, and 10 orcs.  The orcs were the easiest, since I pretty much have their 5e stats memorized by now anyway.

The thief had 26 hp and AC 5.  The weasels has 18-24 hp and AC 6.  To figure out converted AC, I just took the difference from 10, and added 10 to get the Next version.  AC 5?  That's 5 from 10, added to 10 for a final AC of 15.  AC 6 is 4 from 10, added to 10 for a final AC of 14.  Hit points were the same.  I've found no reason to change those, and they've worked fine as is.  I've also used the same damage as listed in the module, with no noticeable balance issues.  As far as To Hit bonuses, it's even easier now with the way Next handles proficiencies.  Everything has a +1 to hit at levels 1-2, +2 at levels 4-6, +3 at levels 7-10, etc. since every class in Next has the same thing.  For saving throws, I just figure what stat the monster probably has and go with that.  For example, the thief in the module is level 7, so if I were making a Dex save for him, I'd give him a +12 total bonus (+4 for DEX, +5 because thieves in Next get a +5 bonus to all checks for four skills of their choice, and +3 for the prof bonus).

So if you're familiar with how Next works, you don't even need to do a conversion beforehand.  You can do what I did for that encounter and just did it on the fly.  It took only seconds to figure it out.

So for you question:

GOBLIN: Size S; MOV 60 ft.; AC 6; HD 1; HP 5; #AT 1; D 1-6.

In Next it would look like this: Size: S, MOV 25 (most small humanoids have 25), AC: 14, HP: 5, AT: 1, D: by wpn

Not all that different.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;692945So for you question:

GOBLIN: Size S; MOV 60 ft.; AC 6; HD 1; HP 5; #AT 1; D 1-6.

In Next it would look like this: Size: S, MOV 25 (most small humanoids have 25), AC: 14, HP: 5, AT: 1, D: by wpn

Not all that different.

Yes but what is the To-Hit bonus and the bonus for a saving throw? For a monster not a character.
My guess that it would have to be a factor of HD.

Some examples (Monster names removed)

AC 6; HD 5; #AT 3; D 1-4/1-4/1-8; MV 120 (40); Save F2; ML 8; AL N.

AC 4; MV 6” *12”; HD 4+4; hp 24, 18; #AT 1 ; Drng 2-8 + poison; AL CE

AC 2; MV 15”/30”; HD 7+3; #AT 1; Dmg 1-8 +drain two levels; AL LE; SD +1 or better weapon to hit

Sure you could use stat substitution but what would be even more of a neat trick if you can derive the numbers from the above and go with that.