Fastest way to pry WotC D&D/PF from player hands is make them run it as a GM.

I also have the "prep test" as a hard demarcation line.

Quote from: Opaopajr;684484Fastest way to pry WotC D&D/PF from player hands is make them run it as a GM.

I also have the "prep test" as a hard demarcation line.

Letting them run it will not work.

Many of my gamer friends love the overengineered crunch.

One guy did actually admit it was burdensome to run pathfinder, but he still would use it if he was dm.

Quote from: Opaopajr;684484Fastest way to pry WotC D&D/PF from player hands is make them run it as a GM.

:cheerleader:

I find it funny that the players who are most adamant about ONLY playing such systems never want to GM them.

The biggest enthusiast for a system is the logical choice to run thing IMHO.

I really enjoy B/X but the reality is that anytime I get to play, then I suspect I will be the one running it.

Quote from: Opaopajr;684484Fastest way to pry WotC D&D/PF from player hands is make them run it as a GM.

Bring it. I love running PF and D&D 3.x.

Your test has some merit, though. Running Over the Edge took to setting-induced shine of the game for me, and showed me it was an inadequate piece of dross.

In short, "try it" doesn't make taste-based criterion any less subjective.

Edit: 4e still sucks, though.

My view is that 4e is near unplayable with just pen and paper. But with either cards or DDI it is fine.

The other thing I feel that the exception based design it is very hard to come up with new classes as not only you need to make up the class itself but all the attendant powers. Sure you could always use existing powers but if you wanted to do something novel then it was a ton of work.

It not like prior editions where you could easily just make something up out of left field and plug it in.

This is I feel was why D&D 4e continued to be High Fantasy 24/7 but it would be way too much work to make a low fantasy version, a swords & sorcery version and so on.

Quote from: estar;684498My view is that 4e is near unplayable with just pen and paper. But with either cards or DDI it is fine.

The other thing I feel that the exception based design it is very hard to come up with new classes as not only you need to make up the class itself but all the attendant powers. Sure you could always use existing powers but if you wanted to do something novel then it was a ton of work.

It not like prior editions where you could easily just make something up out of left field and plug it in.

This is I feel was why D&D 4e continued to be High Fantasy 24/7 but it would be way too much work to make a low fantasy version, a swords & sorcery version and so on.

I agree a new class in 4e would be burdensome, but they have a TON of base classes, then hybrids are essentially a 50/50 dual class, and multiclassing on top of that. Paragon paths as well, essentially presige cllasses. I don't see a huge need for more 4e classes.

I don't think DDI is necessary for playing 4e. In fact I think it gets in the way. But I've only been a player, maybe it's different for the GM?

Quote from: soviet;684510I don't think DDI is necessary for playing 4e. In fact I think it gets in the way. But I've only been a player, maybe it's different for the GM?

If you use ddi you don't need any of the books other than ph/dmg for basic rules.

All the books info is built into the character creator.

So ddi equals no books needed for the gm.

Quote from: Bill;684514If you use ddi you don't need any of the books other than ph/dmg for basic rules.

All the books info is built into the character creator.

So ddi equals no books needed for the gm.

From what remember thats not quite true.

The character stuff from splat books is all included in the DDI. The RULES governing such things is not.

For example, familliars from Arcane Power are in the DDI. Rules for how familliars work are still in the book only.

Unless things have changed.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684529From what remember thats not quite true.

The character stuff from splat books is all included in the DDI. The RULES governing such things is not.

For example, familliars from Arcane Power are in the DDI. Rules for how familliars work are still in the book only.

Unless things have changed.

Never ran into a lot of problems like that. I pretty much ignore that the books exist when I gm 4e. On a few rare occassions someone at the table looked something up with a laptop but it was certainly no worse than digging through a book wood be.

In any case, I find 4E to be a vast improvement over 3X for the 'chore factor'

I get to ignore the minutia and focus on the actual game.

Quote from: Haffrung;684445 And we still hear 4vengers claiming 4e is a very accessible game for new and casual players.

You think it's easier to read a bunch of books to make a character, rather than PUSHING A BUTTON?

4e character generation is the easiest character generation of any of the versions of D&D other that Basic D&D, if you have access to the DDI.  It does it all for you, and whatever level of complexity you want, it comes down to just a minimal number of choices from pushing buttons.

The reason the sheet is so long, is because it reprints the full text of EVERYTHING on the sheet.  Seriously, there is a full sized index card explaining all the rules for your friggen magic sword.  And while you can count "sheets", most of the sheets get cut into index cards and laid out the way you want them in front of you, with many out of sight but available in case you need them.

This, while lengthy, is very accessible for the new player.  Just about everything they need is there, always.  You don't even need a PHB to bring to the game.  Almost all the rules particular to your character, are right there in the section for the thing you might have a question about.

However, as others have said, the game is very inaccessible if you do not have access to the DDI.  Which is why almost all groups, the DM had a subscription at the least, and usually they shared that account access with the players so they could generate and level their characters.

Urgh.

If I wanted to play an RPG that requires a computer programme I'd play a crpg.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684444/snip
Next campaign I'm preparing to run (LL with AEC) will use class as the basis of weapon damage. Different weapons will have other properties that make them more or less suitable in certain situations.

I've been toying with the idea of using a character's type of Hit Dice being the damage dice for your weapon. I like the idea of Wizards wielding Two-handers even if they aren't as good with them. May even make one attack bonus chart for everyone.

Quote from: The Ent;684534Urgh.

If I wanted to play an RPG that requires a computer programme I'd play a crpg.

You don't need the program while you are atually playing; it just creates a character sheet for you.

I am still a 'stack of papers gm' but I love the character generator.

Quote from: Mistwell;684533You think it's easier to read a bunch of books to make a character, rather than PUSHING A BUTTON?

4e character generation is the easiest character generation of any of the versions of D&D other that Basic D&D, if you have access to the DDI..

If you expand "DDI" to "electronic support", than there are easier and faster ones.  Some of the JAVA character generation programs out there are very fast and easy.

And if you do narrow it down to "officially supported software", then even Core Rules for 2e was very simple and fast.