Quote from: Melan;684346That's not a bad level of complexity.

Agreed, it looks a lot like my preferred level of complexity actually (I find Basic to be a bit too simple and streamlined, allthough still very good mind! "Basic D&D plus some customization", however, sounds like something very fun. .

Darnit, I'm turning into a 5e fanboy, allready.

Quote from: LibraryLass;684348This is something that has never made sense to me. Logically shouldn't most of these weapons do a lot less damage to a big creature? If you stab a storm giant with a short sword, shouldn't that basically be like stabbing a human with the short blade of a Swiss Army knife?

I think the idea is that most weapons are doing 'less' damage proportionally because the giant or dragon or whatever has lots of Hit Dice/Hit Points. So a weapon with larger damage vs. Size L gets the larger damage range to counteract some of that and be almost as lethal, regardless of size.

I don't know that's the official explanation but its how I've always thought of it.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;684357I think the idea is that most weapons are doing 'less' damage proportionally because the giant or dragon or whatever has lots of Hit Dice/Hit Points. So a weapon with larger damage vs. Size L gets the larger damage range to counteract some of that and be almost as lethal, regardless of size.

I don't know that's the official explanation but its how I've always thought of it.

The "different damages vs different sizes" bit of AD&D was always a bit weird imo.

That being said I do miss it in later editions. It was generally speaking cool to do d12 dmg vs Ogres and such (also, that stuff made Gnolls way less dangerous than they'd otherwise be. I mean 2 HD don't last long when several weapons to better dmg against Large than Medium - including most of the most popular weapons like longswords, shortswords, daggers, spears...).

And yeah I'd say that generally the big monsters have lots of HD because they're big.
(While say medium-sized supernatural critters have lots of HD because supernatural)

Quote from: JasperAK;684253What I really want to see is ...a 4e 3rd-level Fighter next to a 3rd-level Wizard...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;684268I don't play 4e, so sorry I can't do that one.

By popular demand I created with the DDI Character Builder a 4E Quick Essential 3rd  level human fighter and a mage (Evocation school). I left the choice all  the equipment, powers and other stats to the Builder software.

The Character sheet for the fighter is 5 pages long; the wizard's counts 6 pages.

I'll try to fit these on an Excell sheet like above later, but now I have to run (dinner date with a blonde lawyer, in Bruges).

But here are the basic stats as delivered by the character summary (I'm sure I could tighten that up a bit):

QuoteMoldvay, level 3
 Human, Wizard (Mage)
School: Evocation School
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort

ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 14, DEX 8, INT 20, WIS 11, CHA 10

AC: 17
Fort: 15
Ref: 18
Will: 15
HP: 32 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 8
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +11,
Dungeoneering +6,
History +11,
Nature +6,
Religion +11
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +0,
Athletics +1,
Bluff +1,
Diplomacy +1,
Endurance +3,
Heal +1,
Insight +1,
Intimidate +1,
Perception +1,
Stealth +0,
Streetwise +1,
Thievery +0
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Wizard Utility: Suggestion
Wizard Utility: Mage Hand
Wizard Utility: Ghost Sound
Wizard Attack 1: Fountain of Flame
Wizard Attack 1: Sleep
Wizard Attack 1: Charm of Misplaced Wrath
Wizard Attack 1: Illusory Obstacles
Wizard Attack 1: Arc Lightning
Wizard Attack 1: Freezing Burst
Wizard Attack 1: Magic Missile
Wizard Utility 2: Instant Friends
Wizard Utility 2: Shield
Wizard Attack 3: Blissful Ignorance
Wizard Attack 3: Maze of Mirrors
 
FEATS
Level 1: Aggressive Advantage
Level 1: Hidden Sniper
Level 2: Bow Expertise
 
ITEMS
Defensive Quarterstaff +1 x1
Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) of Cleansing +1 x1
Cloak of Resistance +1 x1
Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing)
Adventurer's Kit
Quarterstaff x1

QuoteMoldvay, level 3
Human, Fighter (Knight)
Knight Option: Shield Finesse
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
 
ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 8
 
AC: 22
Fort: 20
Ref: 15
Will: 13
HP: 41 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 10
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +9,
Diplomacy +5,
Endurance +6,
Heal +8
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics –1,
Arcana +1,
Bluff +0,
Dungeoneering +1,
History +1,
Insight +1,
Intimidate +0,
Nature +1,
Perception +1,
Religion +1,
Stealth –1,
Streetwise +0,
Thievery –1
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Fighter Attack: Battle Guardian
Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura
Fighter Utility: Cleaving Assault
Fighter Utility: Hammer Hands
Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike
Fighter Utility 2: Push Forward
 
FEATS
Shield Finesse
Level 1: Combat Medic
Level 1: Disciple of Strength
Level 2: Durable
 
ITEMS
Vicious Warhammer +1 x1
Delver's Plate Armor +1 x1
Cloak of Resistance +1 x1
Plate Armor
Adventurer's Kit
Warhammer
Heavy Shield x1

Edit to add: both characters took 15 seconds to create in DDI. IRL I suppose it would take between 15 minutes and 2 days, depending on the player.

Quote from: Godfather Punk;684373Edit to add: both characters took 15 seconds to create in DDI. IRL I suppose it would take between 15 minutes and 2 days, depending on the player.

If it takes software to make chargen not be a pain in the ass-thats a red flag.

Quote from: 1989;684269What are these special abilities.

action surge?
second wind?

This is sounding like 4e powers already.

CAN I JUST HAVE A FUCKING FIGHTER WITH A SWORD TO HITS THINGS ALREADY?!?!!

I had the same reaction when I first played a 1E fighter from level 1 to 16.
Too many fancy quasi mystical powers for my personal preference.

For what it's worth, in 4E they eventually realized that many people (like you and me, for example) prefer simpler fighters over 'power christmas tree' fighters. They added many classes that are far simpler, one is a fighter that is mostly all about just swinging his sword.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;684357I think the idea is that most weapons are doing 'less' damage proportionally because the giant or dragon or whatever has lots of Hit Dice/Hit Points. So a weapon with larger damage vs. Size L gets the larger damage range to counteract some of that and be almost as lethal, regardless of size.

I don't know that's the official explanation but its how I've always thought of it.

Well part of the thinking seems to be along the lines of: you have a short sword. You stab a bandit in the belly with it. You can only stab so far before the short sword comes out the other side. But if you stab an ogre with it, you can plunge it in to the hilt. 100% stab!

So, generally, weapons that can be used to stab do more damage vs. Size L, slashing weapons do the same, and bludgeoning weapons do less, thinking about it that way.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684380If it takes software to make chargen not be a pain in the ass-thats a red flag.

It depends why the software is being used in the first place. It mainly because the heart of D&D 4e is a library of powers. Character Creation is not tough but writing down all the information so it is at your fingertip is a pain in the ass.

If you had a deck of index cards with each with a single power. then making a character wouldn't take long at all.

Now it is not something I prefer but it does work well and it highly effective at making a game with detailed tactics understandable to average gamer.

In fact I found adopting a power card approach for my GURPS games also makes the game more understandable for novices.  Basically a cheat sheet of maneuvers, spells, and abilities with the rules printed right there.

It is something that Magic the Gathering honed and really works well.

Doesn't make up for the fact the game is not D&D or change the fact it is High Fantasy 24/7.

Quote from: estar;684402In fact I found adopting a power card approach for my GURPS games also makes the game more understandable for novices.  Basically a cheat sheet of maneuvers, spells, and abilities with the rules printed right there.

That's a great idea! Don't mind that I'm going to steal it, please!
(Especially if Powers and/or Martial Arts are used and/or the setting's magic-heavy, that'd help A LOT.)

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;684357I think the idea is that most weapons are doing 'less' damage proportionally because the giant or dragon or whatever has lots of Hit Dice/Hit Points. So a weapon with larger damage vs. Size L gets the larger damage range to counteract some of that and be almost as lethal, regardless of size.

I don't know that's the official explanation but its how I've always thought of it.

I suspect the large damage was based on what I would call well intended, but flawed logic.


Bigger sword can impale huge creature more....

I assume actual physics would make larger creatures take less damage, not more from weapons.

Do mosquitoes do a d6 to collosal humans?  



Or possibly just for a fun factor over logic.

Well the broadsword actually performed worse against Large creatures. :confused:
(But then there seems to at times have been some confusion about what weapon it was meant to represent. In late 2e they seem to have concluded that it's both Dark Age "barbarian" slashing swords (aka pre-longsword/arming sword big one-handers like Viking swords) and 16th-17th c. single-edged slashing swords that aren't sabers or cutlasses...)

I can sorta see the logic re: stuff like longswords and two-handed swords doing more damage to bigger monsters, allthough at some point I suppose it ceases to make sense (that a two-handed sword does more damage to an ogre than a dwarf because either the ogre gets impaled more, or quite simply a longer bit of edge connects meaning it actually causes a way bigger wound than it'd do on said dwarf), but against say 100' long dragons this sort of is just weird...

Wow..I had forgotten the broadsword.

                   damage vs mansized              damage vs large creature
Longsword               1-8                                        1-12
Broadsword              2-8                                        2-7




Say what!???  

I guess the idea is that the broadsword is too broad to be effectively used as a thrusting weapon.

* throws up hands, shrugs *

Stabby weapons maybe more damage since if you can hit a vital spot it'll hurt no matter how big you are? Whereas a blunt thing is going to be less effective since good luck breaking an ogre's bones with your club.
 
Thinking about it more though, it seems like a pretty random piece of faux-realism, so most likely there's some game balance justification as well (to make fighters better than clerics or something ?).
 
No idea what's up with the broadsword - probably what Imp said. Either they assumed its just not good for stabbing, or somewhere in some random Appendix N book a hero broke his broadsword trying to stab a dragon.

Quote from: Bill;684419Wow..I had forgotten the broadsword.

                   damage vs mansized              damage vs large creature
Longsword               1-8                                        1-12
Broadsword              2-8                                        2-7




Say what!???  

Quote from: ImpI guess the idea is that the broadsword is too broad to be effectively used as a thrusting weapon.

* throws up hands, shrugs *

The broadsword: the red-headed stepchild of AD&D swords.
(...well actually I suppose that'd be the khopesh but, who cares about the khopesh!? )

But yeah it's weird how the broadsword's just plain worse than the longsword. Well okay that's not 100% true, I mean it does one point more minimal damage wich probably helps when fighting 1HD thrash like orcs or goblins, I mean a specialized fighter with Str 17 would do 5-11 rather than 4-11 wich makes a one hit kill somewhat more likely against such creatures but...really! He does half as much base damage against an ogre! Why!!?

...I sometimes played broadsword-wielding fighters because underdog weapon yay!

OTOH, for another example, in 2e scimitars and battleaxes are equal except scimitars are faster (and battleaxes might or might not be 2-handed). But then, battleaxes kinda get shafted in Basic too...