Quote from: Orpheo;624793Will this be a repeat of the skill challenge debacle?

I dislike skill challenges as presented in 4E dnd. Feels backwards to me; as in, Characters should perform actions (skills) and the results of those actions create events.

Not....Predetermined skill events that a character performs.

Feels backwards to me.

I scrapped skill challenges with 4E on day one, and ran a 2 year campaign just fine.


That being said, who likes skill challenges, and why?

Quote from: Bill;625224I dislike skill challenges as presented in 4E dnd. Feels backwards to me; as in, Characters should perform actions (skills) and the results of those actions create events.

Not....Predetermined skill events that a character performs.

Feels backwards to me.

I scrapped skill challenges with 4E on day one, and ran a 2 year campaign just fine.


That being said, who likes skill challenges, and why?

I love them, when you toss out the existing rules and replace them with your own We ran them as "Here is a challenge, many ways to deal with this challenge might involve skills, what do you do?" and then adjudicated depending on what players tried.  We did not assume any skills would be used, or any particular skills.  We did have a sort of "goal" in mind, and assigned progress towards that goal as characters did things, but not everything had a fixed progress, and it was mostly just adjudicated based on what happened with each action.

Quote from: Orpheo;624793Will this be a repeat of the skill challenge debacle?

Probably.

Quote from: Bill;625224That being said, who likes skill challenges, and why?

They work for me. I use them to have individual characters shine with their creative ideas much more than the dice rolls. Skill challenges allow me to compress time and focus more on the interesting bits.

Skill challenges as presented are total crap. utterly dissociated mechanics.

RPGPundit

They rocked in the 4e playtest, but sucked goat nut in the DMG. The DMG 2 did an okay job fixing them, but too little too late. Skill challenges were far more fluid, more roleplay oriented in the playtests where it was much more about "spotlight time" and creative roleplay than "roll high on 4 athletic checks before moving on the next fight board"

Quote from: RPGPundit;625405Skill challenges as presented are total crap. utterly dissociated mechanics.

RPGPundit

I have to agree completely. They solved a problem I just never had. It was very easy to use skills on a 1-1 basis to resolve anything that came up in play. N need to make it a mini-game.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;625436I have to agree completely. They solved a problem I just never had. It was very easy to use skills on a 1-1 basis to resolve anything that came up in play. N need to make it a mini-game.

It wasn't so much about being a mini-game as it was the designer's goal that any character could potentially solve any problem using any skill; because, you know, its obviously no fun if you actually have to have the right skill for the job... there's a risk you might be unable to do something! In 4e that's just not acceptable.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;625741because, you know, its obviously no fun if you actually have to have the right skill for the job... there's a risk you might be unable to do something! In 4e that's just not acceptable.

That's right. It's a cinematic mainstay. The protagonist doesn't have the right skill so they somehow use what they do know to solve the mystery, save the world or get the girl.

Why does this trope exist so much in TV and movies? Because it speeds the story along and creates interesting (often humorous) moments where the hero overcomes challenges from an unusual angle.

4e chose to make this trope part of their system. If you use skill challenges as intended, they can absolutely rock at the table with amazing creativity and originality from players. Or it can just be lame dice rolling. DM's choice.

And its not really new to 4e. Plenty of GMs were allowing PCs to use their skills in odd ways for decades before, but 4e codified this concept into the game.

When it was done before, it was a reward for thinking outside the box and using your knowledge and resources as a character in an improvisational and ingenious manner.

In 4e, it was just hard-coded in as another system for a subsection of gamers who can't imagine not being able to win every encounter and situation, every time, or never having the right skill for the job at hand.

Quote from: Spinachcat;625760That's right. It's a cinematic mainstay. The protagonist doesn't have the right skill so they somehow use what they do know to solve the mystery, save the world or get the girl.

Why does this trope exist so much in TV and movies? Because it speeds the story along and creates interesting (often humorous) moments where the hero overcomes challenges from an unusual angle.

4e chose to make this trope part of their system. If you use skill challenges as intended, they can absolutely rock at the table with amazing creativity and originality from players. Or it can just be lame dice rolling. DM's choice.

And its not really new to 4e. Plenty of GMs were allowing PCs to use their skills in odd ways for decades before, but 4e codified this concept into the game.

These are the kinds of things for players to come up with and just do. 4E turned the whole exercise into a menu selective button mashing fest. Press your choice of X, Y, or Z repeatedly or in any combination enough times till you you win. Blech.

Quote from: RPGPundit;625741It wasn't so much about being a mini-game as it was the designer's goal that any character could potentially solve any problem using any skill; because, you know, its obviously no fun if you actually have to have the right skill for the job... there's a risk you might be unable to do something! In 4e that's just not acceptable.

RPGPundit

No you have that wrong. Its not that in 4e you had to be able to solve every issue its that you can't be allowed to select any skills that is weaker than any other.
The result may be the same but the intention is entirely different.
The 4e objective is not to make all challenges simple but to make the selection of useless skills impossible.

Quote from: RPGPundit;625741It wasn't so much about being a mini-game as it was the designer's goal that any character could potentially solve any problem using any skill; because, you know, its obviously no fun if you actually have to have the right skill for the job... there's a risk you might be unable to do something! In 4e that's just not acceptable.

RPGPundit

I did not catch that element. Good point!

Skill challenges make it difficult to fail.

Quote from: jibbajibba;625803No you have that wrong. Its not that in 4e you had to be able to solve every issue its that you can't be allowed to select any skills that is weaker than any other.
The result may be the same but the intention is entirely different.
The 4e objective is not to make all challenges simple but to make the selection of useless skills impossible.

A skill that is useless in EVERY situation should not be classified as a skill.

If a given skill can be useful in ANY situation then there is no need to have more than one skill in the list.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;625806A skill that is useless in EVERY situation should not be classified as a skill.

If a given skill can be useful in ANY situation then there is no need to have more than one skill in the list.

sounds like another basketweaver debate

I am not supporting 4e merely trying to explain what I see as the rationale behind their skills system.

I want to create an rpg that has a basket weaver skill.