I know it's been a bit since I posted a recap from our actual play sessions, but I wanted to get a few sessions with this new packet before assessing an opinion.
To recap the previous packet, a rogue could add sneak attack damage any time they gave themselves disadvantage on an attack. When you chose a rogue class, you also chose a specialty. This specialty meant you could either give yourself advantage on attacks against opponents where you had no allies near that creature, or you could chose to give yourself advantage if there was an ally within 5' of your target. Not both. I will admit that that never felt right to me. I don't know if "wonky" is a good word, but it just felt wrong.
Essentially any time you wanted to apply sneak attack damage, you either attacked at disadvantage, or you rolled a normal attack (you had advantage which canceled out disadvantage). In older editions, truly attacking from stealth gave you a bonus to hit which put you at about the same attack rating as a fighter. Because thieves had mediocre attack bonuses, this was important. Well, in Next they don't have super attack bonuses either, so a standard attack when attacking from stealth not only didn't make sense from an immersion standpoint, it meant you had less of a chance to hit your target from stealth than a fighter did on a normal attack.
The way skill checks (open locks, disarm traps, etc) worked is that you rolled your check and added Dex modifier, and skill dice, and they were individual feats.
New Packet Version
I'm playing Norlay, a human assassin rogue, level 5. Str: 15, Int: 9, Wis: 12, Dex: 17, Con: 13, Cha: 14
Sneak attack now works in that you can add your sneak attack damage any time you have advantage on your attack. You don't have to give yourself disadvantage to do so. There are two themes to choose from: assassin and Thievery. Also, all thieves now have a more extensive list of abilities they get regardless of background, specialty, or theme chosen. The themes give you an extra ability at level 3, 6, 9, 13, and 16. My assassin ability at level 3 means I have advantage against any opponent who goes after me in initiative. In addition, if I surprise an opponent with an attack, it's a critical hit and sneak attack damage is max'd.
At level 4 I had the option of increase my stats. Because four of my stats are odd numbers, my 2 points could have been used to increase the modifier on two of them. Tough choice, but I actually decided to learn a feat instead: alertness. This feat means I can't be surprised and I get a +5 bonus to initiative.
Combat Evaluation: Having advantage on every attack against slower opponents (happened very often with a total +8 initiative modifier) was a pretty big deal because I got to add 1d6 (2d6 when I hit 5th level) to every attack, and advantage just by itself was a huge bonus. I hardly missed.
Rogues are squishy. At level 5 I still had AC 14 and 27 hit points. Other party members were in the 40s and even 50s. Clearly my role was to stay back and plink arrows. At level 6, when I get the distraction ability (use your reaction to reduce damage taken by an enemy you see by half), front line survivability will be much stronger.
Assassinate ability is bad ass. We managed to talk our way into a cult stronghold courtyard, but didn't want to have to fight all them. We needed to get inside, but the guard wouldn't let us. There was a ritual going on in the courtyard. When the flames of that ritual suddenly nearly blew up, causing a distraction, I hit the guard on a sneak attack. 27 points of damage on one hit. He dropped instantly and quietly. Since the door was in the corner of the courtyard, we quickly drug him out of sight and I donned his cloak and garb (assassins have proficiency in disguise kits) before anyone else in the courtyard noticed. We then snuck into the interior stronghold while I "kept watch".
Later, I snuck into a room (all checks like sneak, open locks, etc are now just Dex checks, and rogues get to add an expertise die to the result) and saw a wizard and priest in discussion. Another assassinate roll. 23 points this time. Cleric instantly dropped and wizard surrendered in fear almost immediately.
Skill Evaluation: The DCs of all tasks seem to have dropped a bit because now there aren't any skills any more like before. Now it's just an appropriate ability check. However, to open locks or disarm traps, you do have to have prof in theives tools, so I was the only one who could open locks. As mentioned, rogues get to add an expertise dice to any DEX check. Now, you don't have to be a thief to have prof in thieves tools. You can be any class and choose the thief background, or have a feat choice that grants you prof in them.
Overall Evaluation: Overall, this version of the rogue feels a lot better than the last one. I really didn't like how they worked sneak attack and advantage in the previous packet. In the mind's eye, doing a precise strike (sneak attack) in regular combat worked, and if you got the drop on someone for realz, watch the hell out (assassinate ability). Especially as sneak attack damage increases. The higher level you are, the less important the type of weapon is that impacts your overall damage, which I like. No more "I sneak attack with a ballista." Why? Because on a true surprise sneak attack, you add max sneak attack damage (which is xd6, regardless if you have a dagger or a greatsword).
I.e., let's say you're an 11th level rogue and your sneak attack is 4d6. If you hit on a surprise sneak attack with a long sword, damage is:
2d8 (critical hits do an extra die of damage) + 24 = 33 points on average
Dagger:
2d4+24 = 29 points on average
The difference isn't that much, and allows you to play a historical/fictional theme much more effective (everyone in books and movies uses daggers to sneak attack) than going for the more unrealistic option (long sword) just because that does a lot more damage.
I will be happy if the 5e 'rogue' is skilled at lots of stuff, sneaky, able to do classic backstab, but can't beat a fighter in a fair fight.
Quote from: Bill;682490I will be happy if the 5e 'rogue' is skilled at lots of stuff, sneaky, able to do classic backstab, but can't beat a fighter in a fair fight.
Pretty much everyone is skilled, in the sense that anyone can attempt nearly any skill. Rogues just get bonuses in the form of expertise die, and later on things like taking 10 or getting advantage on checks.
In my experience playing one, I couldn't beat a fighter in a fair fight. Not even close. I'd have to get the serious drop on him and get that surprise sneak attack in round 1 in order to have a chance.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;682492Pretty much everyone is skilled, in the sense that anyone can attempt nearly any skill. Rogues just get bonuses in the form of expertise die, and later on things like taking 10 or getting advantage on checks.
In my experience playing one, I couldn't beat a fighter in a fair fight. Not even close. I'd have to get the serious drop on him and get that surprise sneak attack in round 1 in order to have a chance.
Yeah, and even then I wouldn't put money on you. Better invest in some poison.
Fighters are
beasts.
At 5th level, your bare bones warrior fighter will have around 49 hps, do two attacks per round that crit on a 19+, will easily have an AC of 18 and likely a +6 or +7 to hit. Not to be trifled with.
Quote from: JonWake;682522Yeah, and even then I wouldn't put money on you. Better invest in some poison.
Fighters are beasts.
At 5th level, your bare bones warrior fighter will have around 49 hps, do two attacks per round that crit on a 19+, will easily have an AC of 18 and likely a +6 or +7 to hit. Not to be trifled with.
Yeah. In order for me to beat a fighter in combat, I have to get surprise attack, which probably drops him to 1/2 hit points. Poison is almost a must. Luckily there are several poisons available to an assassin rogue ;)
The only saving grace is that I'd almost always go first, and if things got really bad I could use my reaction to halve the damage.
But 9 times out of 10 the fighter will win. As it should be. My primary role isn't to fight. I shouldn't be as good as the fighter, even with that first surprise round. I have other abilities that prove my worth in a typical adventure.
Sounds about right to me, and it's all about ME.
Well, I do want the game to cater to my preferences anyway.