TheRPGSite

I know it's been a while since I posted one of these, but life happens and we weren't able to continue the A Series campaign that we started a while ago until today.

Participants:  
* Talasia (human druid of the land)
* Melgyen (human fighter weapon master)
* Brother Thadeus (human bard of war college)
* Emriss (dragonborn Mage)

Each PC was level 6 during this adventure.  We used the most recent Next playtest packet, and as always, I was DMing the AD&D module.  The only conversion done was with monster stat blocks

After scouting the stockade, the party found the hidden entrance in the well and snuck into the slave pen room with the cloaker and slaves who were catatonic.  Talasia entered the room and tried detecting magic.  They were fearful of the shadows dancing around the slaves, and had detected the magical cloak the entranced hobgoblin wore.  At that point, the cloaker attacked him.  After suffering damage the next round, Talasia rolled well and broke free of the grapple.  This allowed the other party members to kill the cloaker.  When the spell was broken, the hobgoblin tried to flee but the druid quickly charmed him (I rolled a natural 1 on the save, meaning the hobgoblin became the best of friends).  The party as able to get a lot of information from this hobgoblin sergeant, including the layout of the stockade and where the leaders were.

After getting the info, the party made their way to strategically take out the leadership.  First on the list was the Executioner.  Funny enough, the party fell for his ruse of luring them to have a seat, and the Executioner flipped the table on them and battle ensued.  However, it was over pretty quickly.  Thadeus's call of valor added 1d6 damage to all allies' rolls within 25', which had a significant impact.  Especially combined with the fighters' 2 attacks per round, turned 4 with action surge.  The executioner only inflicted minimal damage before falling.

From there they took on Icar and the wereboars in the kitchen.  Talasia charmed Icar and had him leave the battle (he thought that having Icar fight with us against old comrades would break the charm).  The others focuses on the wereboars.  This was a moderately tough battle, but the PCs prevailed pretty easily when they didn't have to worry about Icar.  They tried to convince Icar to join them, but it was too much and the charm was broken.  When Icar was reduced to lower HP, Thadeus cast sleep, taking him out of the fight.  Thadeus opened the closet door and approached the "female prisoner".  Mistake.  Medusa.  Failed his save both times, and was turned to stone.  Luckily, one of the slaves they freed was a bard as well (think Gamers 2 LOL).

In the dungeon levels, the party fell into the magnet trap and the fighter was drawn to the wall.  None of the others wore metal armor.  When that happened, the goblins hidden in the secret room came out to attack.  The druid cast moonbeam to keep them at the far end of the hallway while they escaped and the fighter was able to get past the magnet trap.  The spiders shortly after were quickly dispatched, and in the next room all but the fighter failed their save when the ghostly elf charged them.  The fighter was able to see the elf leave and activate the secret door in a vision similar to in Prometheus with the predators.  AFter the fear wore off, they took the secret passage and bypassed the boggarts.

Shortly after they found themselves in a large room with 15 goblins and four wolves.  The tactical maps included with the module were very helpful, and we used the map and minis for the first time.  This was very helpful, as the PCs cast web first, then flaming sphere to entrap many of the goblins and wolves before going into main battle.  Since the web became alight, having a map made it very easy to see how much was burning each round, and which creatures caught in it took damage.  One item of note:  A party of 6th level PCs, against these level 1 creatures, still had a very hard time beating them.  The goblins in particular swarmed and wore down a few of the PCs to low HP by the end of it.  I like the fact that enough level 1 gobbos can even take down mid level PCs.  It keeps the PCs respecting their enemies, and just wading into battle would result in a TPK.

The party then found the secret door to the alchemist, and went that route, killing him in his chambers.  In the next room, they found the engineer, who was cowering in fear, rambling about the werecreatures who were out to kill him.  Even after taking a crossbow bolt to the face when they burst the door down, the fighter kept his composure and intimidated the engineer to fill him in on what was happening.  They promised that when Markessa was dead, they would split the treasure.

So the party headed to the laboratory to face Markessa.  She was prepared, and had mirror image already cast.  The party came in through the northern door, rather than the main doors.  The fighter went to engage her in melee while the druid moved down next to the fighter and cast moonbeam on the two owlbears who broke free of their cages.  The mage (an evoker with the sculpt spells ability) launched a fireball.  The bard used call of valor again.  Markessa was able to avoid the melee attacks due to her mirror image, and because the fighter and druid lined up, she hit them with a lightning bolt.  Ouch.  The remaining goblins fired arrows at the mage and bard.  The construct/experiment moved to engage the fighter

The next round saw another fireball and another lightning bold.  Shit was exploding left and right.  The owlbears were inflicting serious damage to the mage and bard.  Markessa and the construct did serious damage to the fighter.  The third round saw the fighter use his second wind.  Markess was very hurt, so rather than finish off the fighter at the expense of her own life, she cast darkness and moved south to escape while the experiment kept the fighter busy.  Finally the mage and bard were able to kill the owlbears, but they were very hurt.

Before Markessa could fully escape, the druid cast dispel magic on the darkness, allowing the mage to see her.  He cast magic missile, but her shield spell reaction voided them.  she flung open the doors, calling the worgs for help.  The experiment finally fell.

The next couple of rounds the party was able to finally kill Markessa with a moonbeam and keep the worgs at bay with the same spell before taking them out.  The party was nearly completely out of resources.  They were able to bar themselves in and complete a short rest (1 hour), allowing them to heal up and gain some resources back.  They went back to the engineer and showed him how Markessa was killed.  As they left the room to head towards the treasure, the two werewolves and Blackthorn the ogre mage came charging down the hall.  The PCs won initiative.  The druid used moonbeam to harm the werewolves and force them back into human form.  Blackthorn moved forward and launched cone of cold at the party, nearly killing them.  The party was able to hurt Blackthorn pretty badly but they didn't kill him.  He then assumed gaseous form and escaped.  The party went back to the engineer's room to try to get a long rest in, as they were nearly dead and out of resources.

After only a short rest, Blackthorn busted down the door and fired a cone of cold inside the room (I ruled that since he was a mage type caster, he would have arcane recovery similar to a mage class).  The fighter fell, as well as the engineer.  The dragonborn mage had also used arcane recovery, and was pissed.  He wasn't playing around and fireballed the room.  If it weren't for sculpt spells, he would have killed everyone.  As it was, by the end of the battle, the fighter was down, the druid had 2hp, and the mage had 1 hp left.

They used the scroll of resurrection they found earlier to bring the fighter back.  I rules that since the mage couldn't cast the spell normally, he would have to make an intelligence check at a DC 20 to pull the spell off successfully.  He rolled a natural 20.  Success!

That was pretty much most of the combat, with some other minor skirmishes here and there.

Mechanical observations:
* charm person is the shit.  Just like in AD&D
* sleep is very powerful once creatures have been reduced to lower HP.  A great fight finisher.
* the bard didn't do much damage himself, but his call of valor was a HUGE impact to overall party damage.
* sculpt spells remains a game changer for mages.
* Holy fuck the fighter is a death machine.  Especially partnered with the bard above.

There seems to be more 4e in there than I prefer. Can the parameters be changed both before and during the game like FantasyCraft?

Quote from: Marleycat;709138There seems to be more 4e in there than I prefer. Can the parameters be changed both before and during the game like FantasyCraft?

How do you mean, "parameters"?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;709139How do you mean, "parameters"?

You said you used the AD &D module. So can you modify the setting before and during the game? I assume you can use a certain set of dials before the game. Can that be changed during the game if the feel you want is wrong.

Quote from: Marleycat;709144You said you used the AD &D module. So can you modify the setting before and during the game? I assume you can use a certain set of dials before the game. Can that be changed during the game if the feel you want is wrong.

I guess so.  All I did was use the existing AD&D module and replace the monster stat blocks with the Next ones.  If something came up where I either didn't want to, or wasn't able to look up a rule in Next?  It was easy enough just to come up with whatever one I felt was reasonable.  But I didn't have to swap out monster type or quantity from what was in the original module.

Quote from: Marleycat;709144You said you used the AD &D module. So can you modify the setting before and during the game? I assume you can use a certain set of dials before the game. Can that be changed during the game if the feel you want is wrong.

D&D5e doesn't contain the "modular" options that were promised at the start of the playtest. Its pretty much as hardwired as any previous edition of D&D.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;709145I guess so.  All I did was use the existing AD&D module and replace the monster stat blocks with the Next ones.  If something came up where I either didn't want to, or wasn't able to look up a rule in Next?  It was easy enough just to come up with whatever one I felt was reasonable.  But I didn't have to swap out monster type or quantity from what was in the original module.

I get you.

Hmm…

Quote from: Skywalker;709147D&D5e doesn't contain the "modular" options that were promised at the start of the playtest. Its pretty much as hardwired as any previous edition of D&D.

How disappointing.

Thanks Sacrosanct, great write up. I finally downloaded the latest play test packet (my first look at 5E rules). I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. It's recognisably D&D (unlike 4E) and they've stripped out some of the complexity of 3E which is a huge plus.

Quote from: Fiasco;709151Thanks Sacrosanct, great write up. I finally downloaded the latest play test packet (my first look at 5E rules). I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. It's recognisably D&D (unlike 4E) and they've stripped out some of the complexity of 3E which is a huge plus.

Agreed, I just wanted more flexibility but I like what I see beyond that.

Quote from: Marleycat;709152Agreed, I just wanted more flexibility but I like what I see beyond that.

IIRC 5e does attempt to make Feats modular by saying you can ignore them, even though everything in the system assumes their use. So, as modular as 3e :/

Quote from: Skywalker;709153IIRC 5e does attempt to make Feats modular by saying you can ignore them, even though everything in the system assumes their use. So, as modular as 3e :/

Well, I am willing to give the benefit of doubt given playtest modules does not a full game make.

Thank you Sacrosanct for your threads about D&D5, very informative. I'm more and more interested in D&D5, and I think I'm going to get it when it's finally released.

Quote from: Claudius;709183Thank you Sacrosanct for your threads about D&D5, very informative. I'm more and more interested in D&D5, and I think I'm going to get it when it's finally released.

I'm tempted, but i'll probably end up borrowing some books like i did with 4e.

I've got plenty of games that i already play/want to play in the future. Yet another flavour of d&d is low down on my list.

Quote from: Marleycat;709150How disappointing.

oh, I think I get what you were asking now.  In that case, the answer is yes.  It was very easy.  Most players did not use feats and used the ability bump instead, and there was no disruption in play between the balance of those who did use them and those who didn't.  Also, we played without the map and minis for every battle but the two big ones, so grid play is entirely optional and we swapped back and forth easily

Quote from: Skywalker;709147D&D5e doesn't contain the "modular" options that were promised at the start of the playtest. Its pretty much as hardwired as any previous edition of D&D.

I thought you could alter heal rates for example.
Also the moduar stuff will come though the additional books.

Having said all that there is a fair bit of 'use this power' which does feel a bit 4e-ish

Quote from: Skywalker;709153IIRC 5e does attempt to make Feats modular by saying you can ignore them, even though everything in the system assumes their use. So, as modular as 3e :/

I don't think so, to be honest.  For example, the NPC monster write ups don't have feats.  We mix and matched both depending on player preference and it worked well.  After Thaddeus died, the player decided to have his next PC take the lucky feat ;-).  It was a wise choice and saved his new character's life later on.

the only other PC who used feats was the fighter, and he chose the charger feat once and a stat bump (so he could use the ogre bow that required 18 STR) for the 2nd time.  It really was pretty seamless and wasn't game breaking to have some use them and others not.

Quote from: jibbajibba;709197I thought you could alter heal rates for example.
Also the moduar stuff will come though the additional books.

Having said all that there is a fair bit of 'use this power' which does feel a bit 4e-ish

speaking of healing, I do alter that for preference.  I play that you don't heal back all HP after a full rest.  You only get back all of your spent hit dice.

as for the second part, it didn't feel that way to me.  The only real "power" that was used was call of valor from the bard, and that felt like any other bard's ability.  All the other stuff was spells, and since Next uses vancian magic, felt a lot like AD&D.  90% of what the fighter did was a standard attack.  Only every once in a while did he do something like use expertise dice to knock prone the opponent

Quote from: Skywalker;709153IIRC 5e does attempt to make Feats modular by saying you can ignore them, even though everything in the system assumes their use. So, as modular as 3e :/

Eh, no. At certain levels you can choose to raise your Ability Scores or get a Feat. So if you, as a player, don't like them, you don't have to look at them. (Some of the optimiser crowd say, you shouldn't.) Of course, you can choose not to use them with the whole group. Then everybody just takes Ability Scores.

Quote from: 1of3;709208(Some of the optimiser crowd say, you shouldn't.) .

Sorry to hone in on this bit, but that old argument has already been proven to be a stupid position to take from an optimization standpoint because the people who made those arguments are unable to think outside of a very static "arena combat DPS mindset".  The lack of an ability to think outside of the box is pretty rampant in that crowd.

For example, an alertness feat doesn't impact DPS directly, so they think the stat boost is the better choice.  Well, not to an assassin rogue it's not.  The way alertness works in conjunction with the class's abilities means you're adding sneak attack damage to just about every attack.  That's just an example.

Quote from: 1of3;709208Eh, no. At certain levels you can choose to raise your Ability Scores or get a Feat. So if you, as a player, don't like them, you don't have to look at them. (Some of the optimiser crowd say, you shouldn't.) Of course, you can choose not to use them with the whole group. Then everybody just takes Ability Scores.

That's interesting that you can mix and match like that. What I would love is something like 2e but with feats and from what Sacrosanct is saying, that is totally possible.

The altering of healing rate and the ability to  change other things like options to alter build points, feat acquisition, stat bump rates and so on. Are what I'm looking for.

Quote from: Marleycat;709248That's interesting that you can mix and match like that. What I would love is something like 2e but with feats and from what Sacrosanct is saying, that is totally possible.

The altering of healing rate and the ability to  change other things like options to alter build points, feat acquisition, stat bump rates and so on. Are what I'm looking for.

I can only speak from my personal preference, of course, but one of the things I didn't like about 3e is that I would think of a neat concept I wanted to play, only to have other people say it was a worthless build.  Or the feeling like I had to preplan out my PCs advancement path way in advance.  I get how some people like that, but not me.  I prefer a style where I have  my core concept, and the paths he or she takes depends on what is going on in the game world, not something I planned out way in advance.

With Next, I still have some of that customization, but the feats are more like broader specialty groups, and you don't have to worry about preplanning out individual feats anymore.  And that's assuming you want to use them at all.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;709253I can only speak from my personal preference, of course, but one of the things I didn't like about 3e is that I would think of a neat concept I wanted to play, only to have other people say it was a worthless build.  Or the feeling like I had to preplan out my PCs advancement path way in advance.  I get how some people like that, but not me.  I prefer a style where I have  my core concept, and the paths he or she takes depends on what is going on in the game world, not something I planned out way in advance.

With Next, I still have some of that customization, but the feats are more like broader specialty groups, and you don't have to worry about preplanning out individual feats anymore.  And that's assuming you want to use them at all.

I hated that also. The flexibility I am looking for is more focused on before the game not during. Things that change the baseline to a group's preferences.

Quote from: jibbajibba;709197I thought you could alter heal rates for example.
Also the moduar stuff will come though the additional books.

Being able to modify healing rates is a far cry from the modularity promised initially IMO

EDIT: And looking at the playtest document, altering healing rates appears to have been removed.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;709198I don't think so, to be honest.  For example, the NPC monster write ups don't have feats.

Quote from: 1of3;709208Eh, no. At certain levels you can choose to raise your Ability Scores or get a Feat.

The Ability Score Improvement choice is pretty weak sauce compared to the benefits of what feats provide. Regardless of whether monsters use them, the current choice is an unsatisfactory one IMO as between the PCs.

FWIW I am actually quietly hopeful that D&D5e will be a good iteration of D&D, so don't read the above as being overly negative.  I just don't buy into WotC's promises of a unified D&D or high modularity, as they are just not born out in the playtest document.

That medusa in A2 is a beast, I think there was a petrification/poison death the last three times I ran it.

Last time, the thief poked his nose in for a look, petrified.

So another character decided to take a peek. Petrified.

Party just chucked in fire after that, at least...

Quote from: Skywalker;709262The Ability Score Improvement choice is pretty weak sauce compared to the benefits of what feats provide. Regardless of whether monsters use them, the current choice is an unsatisfactory one IMO as between the PCs.

This is entirely subjective, and not clear cut at all.  Several charoppers argue the exact opposite.  To me, that means it works as designed when it's so split.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;709289This is entirely subjective, and not clear cut at all.  Several charoppers argue the exact opposite.  To me, that means it works as designed when it's so split.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;709289This is entirely subjective, and not clear cut at all.  Several charoppers argue the exact opposite.  To me, that means it works as designed when it's so split.

I think its fair to say that if the system lets you attempt anything and bases your chance of sucess on ability checks then bumping an ability score is gernerally going to be much more effective than taking a feat except in the case where a feat either allows you to do something others can't and therefore opens up yopur options or it gives you a substanital benefit on a corner case that you use a lot.

So in a game where everyeon can try to climb walls on a Strength check, and can jump on a strength check and can open doors on a strength check (etc )... using a slot to increase strength is probably better than using a feat to get +3 on jump. However, if you can get a new option called vertical leap and only people with vertical leap can jump up then there will be advantage cases (silly example but you get the idea)

Quote from: jibbajibba;709300I think its fair to say that if the system lets you attempt anything and bases your chance of sucess on ability checks then bumping an ability score is gernerally going to be much more effective than taking a feat except in the case where a feat either allows you to do something others can't and therefore opens up yopur options or it gives you a substanital benefit on a corner case that you use a lot.

So in a game where everyeon can try to climb walls on a Strength check, and can jump on a strength check and can open doors on a strength check (etc )... using a slot to increase strength is probably better than using a feat to get +3 on jump. However, if you can get a new option called vertical leap and only people with vertical leap can jump up then there will be advantage cases (silly example but you get the idea)

Luckily, feats in Next aren't like 3e where they are down to that level of scale.  In Next, they are more broad group benefits, where you get several bonuses and/or new abilities.

The Feats sound good to me, based on what I have read in this thread.

Do I dare ask if Feats have prereqs? One of my biggest gripes in 3X was feat prereqs.

Quote from: Bill;709523The Feats sound good to me, based on what I have read in this thread.

Do I dare ask if Feats have prereqs? One of my biggest gripes in 3X was feat prereqs.

Some do.  I know I'm technically violating TOS by quoting some of them here, but since they are publicly available, I hope it's not that big of a deal.

Alert
You are always on the lookout for danger.  You can the following benefits:
* you gain a +5 bonus to initiative
* you cannot be surprised while you are conscious
* you gain proficiency in the perception skill


Arcane Archer
Prereq: The ability to cast at least one spell of 1st level or higher, proficiency with the long bow or short bow.

As an action, you can imbue a spell of 1st level or higher into an arrow you are holding.  You cast the spell as normal, but the spell effect does not occur until after the arrow is used in an attack.
You can only imbue a spell that has an area such as a sphere, cloud, or cylinder.  The arrow holds the spell effect until the end of your next long rest or until it is used in an attack that hits.
If you cast a spell that affects one creature, the next time the imbued arrow hits a creature with an attack, the attack deals damage as normal, and then you resolve the spell's effect against the target.
If you imbued a spell that has a area, the creature does not need to be hit for the spell to take effect.  Instead, you resolve the spell's effect from the space or creature you targeted.  If the arrow hits a creature, damage is dealt as normal.
Once you resolve the spell's effect, the spell vanishes from the arrow.

Heavy Armor Master
Prereq: Proficiency with medium armor

You can use your armor to deflect strikes that would kill others. Yuo gain the following benefits:

* You gain proficiency with heavy armor
* you ignore any speed penalties from wearing heavy armor
* while you are wearing heavy armor, all bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage you take form an attack is reduced by an amount equal to your CON modifier.

Arcane Initiate
You learn two cantrips of your choice form the mage spell list.
In addition, choose one 1st level spell from that list.  You learn that spell and can cast it once per day.
If you do not already have a magic ability, choose Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma as your magic ability for these spells.



those are just some examples of how feats are structured in next.

Quote from: Skywalker;709147D&D5e doesn't contain the "modular" options that were promised at the start of the playtest. Its pretty much as hardwired as any previous edition of D&D.

I don't recall the designers ever promising that the playtest rules would contain optional modules. The core rules got a wide playtest. Apparently, the optional modules are being tested in house and by smaller groups that have expressed an interest in those types of play. I would expect optional modules to be published after the release, and some of them not right away.

And frankly, people's expectations of these options have been overblown from the outset. WotC has been careful to tailor people's expectations that in a lot of cases they may not be anything more than sidebars with optional critical hits rules and the like. But the discussion about Next has been 70 per cent rampant speculation, assumptions, and conjecture, and 30 per pent based on what WotC has actually said and included in the playtest rules.

Quote from: Haffrung;709548I would expect optional modules to be published after the release, and some of them not right away.

Fingers crossed.

Quote from: Haffrung;709548WotC has been careful to tailor people's expectations that in a lot of cases they may not be anything more than sidebars with optional critical hits rules and the like.

Where you see "careful tailoring of expectations", I see as a "retraction from stated goals". Then again, I was pretty leery of said goals from the outset, so I guess I have only myself to blame if I took them too seriously :)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;709533Some do.  I know I'm technically violating TOS by quoting some of them here, but since they are publicly available, I hope it's not that big of a deal.

Alert
You are always on the lookout for danger.  You can the following benefits:
* you gain a +5 bonus to initiative
* you cannot be surprised while you are conscious
* you gain proficiency in the perception skill


Arcane Archer
Prereq: The ability to cast at least one spell of 1st level or higher, proficiency with the long bow or short bow.

As an action, you can imbue a spell of 1st level or higher into an arrow you are holding.  You cast the spell as normal, but the spell effect does not occur until after the arrow is used in an attack.
You can only imbue a spell that has an area such as a sphere, cloud, or cylinder.  The arrow holds the spell effect until the end of your next long rest or until it is used in an attack that hits.
If you cast a spell that affects one creature, the next time the imbued arrow hits a creature with an attack, the attack deals damage as normal, and then you resolve the spell's effect against the target.
If you imbued a spell that has a area, the creature does not need to be hit for the spell to take effect.  Instead, you resolve the spell's effect from the space or creature you targeted.  If the arrow hits a creature, damage is dealt as normal.
Once you resolve the spell's effect, the spell vanishes from the arrow.

Heavy Armor Master
Prereq: Proficiency with medium armor

You can use your armor to deflect strikes that would kill others. Yuo gain the following benefits:

* You gain proficiency with heavy armor
* you ignore any speed penalties from wearing heavy armor
* while you are wearing heavy armor, all bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage you take form an attack is reduced by an amount equal to your CON modifier.

Arcane Initiate
You learn two cantrips of your choice form the mage spell list.
In addition, choose one 1st level spell from that list.  You learn that spell and can cast it once per day.
If you do not already have a magic ability, choose Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma as your magic ability for these spells.



those are just some examples of how feats are structured in next.

I am getting more interested in 5E.