TheRPGSite

spotted at my local Borders:

Confessions of a Part-time Sorceress: A Girl's Guide to the D&D Game (Girl's Guide to Dungeons and Dragons)

link to amazon entry:

http://tinyurl.com/yv9esb

just. . . whoa.  :what:

Whoa is right.

I wonder if it's any good.

i'll be back at borders friday.  i'll flip through it then, see what's up with it.  i doubt we'll have sold all 4 copies by that time.

Thats been in the works for MONTHs.
At the store we got pre-publicity about that at least 5 or 6 months ago.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarThats been in the works for MONTHs.
At the store we got pre-publicity about that at least 5 or 6 months ago.

- Ed C.

yeah, well i haven't bothered with what's on WotC's plans for a couple of years now.  do you have it at your store?  any sales, or interest?  talk about a niche product. . . .

Quote from: beeberyeah, well i haven't bothered with what's on WotC's plans for a couple of years now.  do you have it at your store?  any sales, or interest?  talk about a niche product. . . .

 We already get plenty of women gamers at the store - don't need that book to encourage that. Its aimed more at the mainstream.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarWe already get plenty of women gamers at the store - don't need that book to encourage that. Its aimed more at the mainstream.

- Ed C.

so, there hasn't been any interest in your neck of the woods, then?

There is an interview with the author on video at WoTCs site.

Youtube vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p01QLtzpB4&eurl=).

The WoTC page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07-saturday#11) its on.

Quote from: KoltarThats been in the works for MONTHs.
At the store we got pre-publicity about that at least 5 or 6 months ago.

Well, hooray for you.  Pity you didn't mention anything about it to us MONTHs ago.  Would've been interesting then, too.

QuoteWe already get plenty of women gamers at the store - don't need that book to encourage that.

If you'll pardon my saying so, the fuck you don't.  You're a business, not a private club.  If it'll wrangle in a different facet of the demographic and sell more game books, then, yeah, you do need a book like that to do it.  Again, hooray for you for pointing out that you're ahead of the curve, but don't be such a douche.

That said, oh, hey!  Go Shelly.  I like the fact that the book was written not only by A) a woman, but by B) a 30-ish late-comer.  Props for appealing to women aside, I wouldn't mind seeing a book like this written by a man who started gaming in his 30s, helping (one hopes) to normalise the hobby.

!i!

I would like to cautiously cheer this possible way to mainstream the hobby a bit more.  I say quietly because I haven't read the book or heard about it until this thread.  That being said, I have seen the subject of how to get more women involved discussed before without much agreement.   In fact, getting new blood into the hobby is always a good way to start a discussion but sometimes the wheels just end up spinning in the mud.  I think a fair number of us that having more people in it is a good thing (the "quality" of such people is the subject of another thread).

Ian - Calm the fuck down.

QuoteIan Absentia said this stuff:Well, hooray for you.  Pity you didn't mention anything about it to us MONTHs ago.  Would've been interesting then, too.

nNo it wouldn't . Really. I also didn't tell you about the other 47 to 98 other things promoed in the last 5 or 6 months, because the forum is about RPGs - not me acting as a shill for WotC's upcoming books. (Or SJG, White Wolf, Mongoose, Privateer Press, Green Ronin, Palladium, HERO games, ....well maybe SJG if I'm in a good mood..but thats only cuz I really like them.)

QuoteIan also said this: If you'll pardon my saying so, the fuck you don't.  You're a business, not a private club.  If it'll wrangle in a different facet of the demographic and sell more game books, then, yeah, you do need a book like that to do it.  Again, hooray for you for pointing out that you're ahead of the curve, but don't be such a douche.

Ian, There ain't enough floor space!! We got a small space at the mall. We also have "friends" at other stores that direct people new to gaming. A book like that does better at either B.DALTON books or BORDERS Books - BOTH of which are in the same Mall's parking lot area.  Also, both of those places have better luck woth similiar books of that kind than we do.

 Heck the manager of the B.DALTON is in the same roleplaying group as the manager of our store. They "network", we "network".

 Secondly - we have a woman, in her 20s who works in the store. Want to get more women gamers??? It helps if you already have a woman thats into gaming working at the store.



- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarThats been in the works for MONTHs.
At the store we got pre-publicity about that at least 5 or 6 months ago.

That sounds really snotty, Koltar. Like "huh, big deal beeber, I knew about this MONTHs ago!"

Is that what you meant? To big yourself up over knowing about something MONTHs ago that beeber has only just now seen?

- Q

At first I thought this might be interesting reading...but, after watching the Utube interview I'm not real impressed.  The Author talking sounds like any average (man or woman) inexperienced gamer high on something new.  I think a similar book by someone like my sister (who has been playing for 25+ years) would have been a lot more interesting.

Not reading the book, I can't say for sure, but, listening to her talking about the game doesn't impress me much as far as the book being interesting reading material.

So, my uneducated opinion (not having read the book) is that WotC plan isn't really to get women involved in the game, but rather to target 15 year old boys (once again) who see the hot cartoon girl on the cover and see the words "D&D" and "Girl" on the same book cover and buy it thinking they will have some new tool for understanding the fairer sex.

"So you think the storytelling nature of D&D appeals to women?"
"Yes, I think it does."

The marketing is becoming clearer.

Quote from: James J Skach"So you think the storytelling nature of D&D appeals to women?"
"Yes, I think it does."

The marketing is becoming clearer.

i will take note of any swinish elements upon my friday perusal of this mysterious tome!  :pundit:

sorry, got a bit o' the gygax in my coffee this morn :haw:

Link to said Utube?

Quote from: grubmanAt first I thought this might be interesting reading...but, after watching the Utube interview I'm not real impressed.  The Author talking sounds like any average (man or woman) inexperienced gamer high on something new.  I think a similar book by someone like my sister (who has been playing for 25+ years) would have been a lot more interesting.

Not reading the book, I can't say for sure, but, listening to her talking about the game doesn't impress me much as far as the book being interesting reading material.

So, my uneducated opinion (not having read the book) is that WotC plan isn't really to get women involved in the game, but rather to target 15 year old boys (once again) who see the hot cartoon girl on the cover and see the words "D&D" and "Girl" on the same book cover and buy it thinking they will have some new tool for understanding the fairer sex.

Sounds like it's a good idea. I'm all for recruitting more gamers, no matter what sex they are. Just so the book doesn't talk down and accuarately depicts gaming.

Quote from: grubmanAt first I thought this might be interesting reading...but, after watching the Utube interview I'm not real impressed.  The Author talking sounds like any average (man or woman) inexperienced gamer high on something new.  I think a similar book by someone like my sister (who has been playing for 25+ years) would have been a lot more interesting.

To someone who's been in the hobby for years already, yes, but I don't think you're really the audience this book is after.  I'd like to see both books on the shelf.

All that said, the proof is in the pudding, or the reading.  The fact that it addresses an appealing topic doesn't mean it wins instant accolades.  Like beeber, I'll try picking up a copy toward the weekend and give it a read.

!i!

I think its a really great idea, if what it consists of is a woman writing from her experience about why she likes D&D as it is, and encouraging others to check it out.

It'll be a hardy rejoinder to those occasional forgish swine-efforts to say "We have to TOTALLY CHANGE gaming so that we can slightly increase our appeal to women, maybe! Because we think we know what they want, but we're not sure!"

If the book is of a woman saying "I dig D&D, its cool, check it out", that's just what we need.

RPGPundit

Uh, yeah dude.  Whatever.  You realise that what she means by "D&D" is a generic term for "roleplaying", right?*  To the average, uninitiated person on the street the words "roleplaying" and "storytelling" are pretty much coincident, if not synonymous, and not a rallying cry in your imaginary war.

!i!

[*Edit:  Upon closer examination and attention to the extended title of the book, I may find myself retracting this statement.]

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaUh, yeah dude.  Whatever.  You realise that what she means by "D&D" is a generic term for "roleplaying", right?  To the average, uninitiated person on the street the words "roleplaying" and "storytelling" are pretty much coincident, if not synonymous, and not a rallying cry in your imaginary war.

!i!

This book was put out by Wizards of the Coast and she is talking specifically about her experiences playing D&D. Although, sure, it could be applied to all roleplaying games in a general way.

That's the funny thing about the term "D&D".  It's like "jell-o" and "kleenex" and "crescent" wrenches -- a specific brand name that's become synonymous with a broader product.  One more thing that'll be interesting to see in reading the book itself -- whether it's promoting RPGs as a whole, or D&D specifically.

!i!

Quote from: Abyssal MawThis book was put out by Wizards of the Coast and she is talking specifically about her experiences playing D&D. Although, sure, it could be applied to all roleplaying games in a general way.

according to the pic on amazon it also has A D&D logo on it, and according to the publishers description it includes a section on how to make up your own D&D character.

Ah.  That's kind of a shame, really.  Completely understandable from WotC's marketing point of view, but a bit of a missed opportunity for the hobby as a whole.  Rather underscores that whole question of whether or not the claim that "D&D™ IS the hobby!" is true, or at least a practical reality.

!i!

Incidentally, there is a sub-forum related to the book on the WotC boards:

"Astrid's Parlor" (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=697)

It's inspired by the book and exists to talk about gender issues, and offer support to female players.  It's technically a sub-forum of the D&D 4th Edition HQ, and there is a bunch of talk about suggestions for the next edition -- often about the artwork and presentation, but occaisionally also about rules like race options, social conflict rules, and so forth.

You know what WotC should put out that would sell like hotcakes?  A calendar that uses pictures of scantily-clad female gamers.





What?
:D

Quote from: jgantsYou know what WotC should put out that would sell like hotcakes?  A calendar that uses pictures of scantily-clad female gamers.





What?
:D

and chainmail bikini minis!

:haw:

Quote from: jgantsYou know what WotC should put out that would sell like hotcakes?  A calendar that uses pictures of scantily-clad female gamers.

Yeah, because the one that White Wolf did was so great... :emot-geno:

Quote from: Caesar SlaadYeah, because the one that White Wolf did was so great... :emot-geno:

:raise:

Quote from: Caesar SlaadYeah, because the one that White Wolf did was so great... :emot-geno:

:haw:

I forgot all about that!

It's interesting to note that a few members of the story-games crowd are absolutely infuriated by this book. Counting it as "offensive to women". And we're talking the website, the book cover, the content, etc.

Here's the website now:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/confessions.asp

These are the same people that get offended by superhero costumes though, so pretty much the same utter fucking tools as always.

Quote from: Abyssal MawIt's interesting to note that a few members of the story-games crowd are absolutely infuriated by this book. Counting it as "offensive to women". And we're talking the website, the book cover, the content, etc.

Here's the website now:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/confessions.asp

These are the same people that get offended by superhero costumes though, so pretty much the same utter fucking tools as always.

Link Please, cause i need something silly to read.

-k

Quote from: Caesar SlaadYeah, because the one that White Wolf did was so great... :emot-geno:

A friend bought me that as a present. *shudder*

Quote from: Caesar SlaadYeah, because the one that White Wolf did was so great... :emot-geno:

link?  i don't remember it!  

not a WoD guy, so i guess i'm not surprised that i missed it

Quote from: kregmosierLink Please, cause i need something silly to read.

-k

I looked around their forum and couldn't find anything.  Too bad, too, because I was in the mood for a laugh.  :(

Quote from: beeberlink?  i don't remember it!

Google "women of the camarilla" calendar.

Quote from: Abyssal MawIt's interesting to note that a few members of the story-games crowd are absolutely infuriated by this book. Counting it as "offensive to women". And we're talking the website, the book cover, the content, etc.

Here's the website now:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/confessions.asp

These are the same people that get offended by superhero costumes though, so pretty much the same utter fucking tools as always.

I'm always amazed by how many uptight people there are in the world just looking for something to be offended by. It's way past silly.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThese are the same people that get offended by superhero costumes though, so pretty much the same utter fucking tools as always.

Personally, I think there's plenty of legitimate criticism to be aimed at superhero fashion choices.  There's also a lot of blowhard overreaction on that issue as well.  Either way, I'm going to count a book written by a woman for potential female gamers as something that I probably don't need to sit in judgement over, but on first gloss the idea of reaching out to the ridiculously under-served female demographic seems like a good step to me.

Yeah, it seems like an easy call to make. And this isn't some random Wizards staffer, or Gwendolyn F. Kestrel, or someone's wife either. It's Shelly Mazzanoble. She's a writer who normally doesn't write about anything to do with gaming.

http://shellymazzanoble.com/wordpress/

Quote from: jrientsPersonally, I think there's plenty of legitimate criticism to be aimed at superhero fashion choices.  There's also a lot of blowhard overreaction on that issue as well.

I don't disagree with this, really. I just don't feel bad about looking at scantily clad super heroines. It is the least of my bad habits. Beyond that, many of the people who have real issues with it (male or female) seem to feel that male sexuality (which has a huge visual component) is well, you know, dirty. Gamers in the US, it seems, are particularly puritanical, and many of the male gamers I've met- especially the younger ones seem almost embarrassed about the fact that they have a cock. Personally, I'm pretty happy with mine.

Quote from: AosI don't disagree with this, really. I just don't feel bad about looking at scantily clad super heroines. It is the least of my bad habits. Beyond that, many of the people who have real issues with it (male or female) seem to feel that male sexuality (which has a huge visual component) is well, you know, dirty. Gamers in the US, it seems, are particularly puritanical, and many of the male gamers I've met- especially the younger ones seem almost embarrassed about the fact that they have a cock. Personally, I'm pretty happy with mine.

It's funny how we seem to get it from both sides.

The guy that wrote that Panty Explosion game wrote this thing about how "typical gamers" weren't interested in his game because they were sexually repressed. And then immediately we also get fried for being lecherous titty-fetishists. And the thing is: the people making both accusations are all agreeing with one another.

The other thing is these diatribes about improper and (dare they describe it as degenerate?) art are often applied unevenly, depending on whether it's from a company they dont like versus one they like. Or unevenly applied based on the gender of the character. Like they'll have overtly sexualized gay male images as "affirming" or something, but if it shows a little female leg (chainmail bikinis!) it's "threatening". I have a friend like that, unfortunately.

Now, obviously there's some porny art out there, particularly in RPG-land, that just gets waaay too ridiculously sexualized, but we can just call it when we see it, can't we?

Quote from: Abyssal MawIt's interesting to note that a few members of the story-games crowd are absolutely infuriated by this book. Counting it as "offensive to women". And we're talking the website, the book cover, the content, etc.

Okay, this is interesting, I'd rather not lead into a story-games bashfest--I'll note that a few members over there are absolutely delighted by the book--but the same pattern of criticism and defense is fascinating. Plus it ties into something I've written before: irony is dangerous, because it allows you disclaim responsibility.

In this case, the book is aimed at the teens & 20's sassy, hip sensibility. Ergo, reproducing "sexist" assumptions/observations about what "girls like" is okay, because it's all done in an ironic tone? A game "aimed at girls" (and, apparently, 40-50 year old women) based on My Little Pony would be okay (says one poster who hates the idea of the book)...and so is running banter about shoe shopping (says someone who liked the book), I guess because it's all accompanied by a metatext (not sure of the proper term) that jokingly suggests "we're just playing with stereotypes". Except no, you're not just playing, you're reenacting. So make up your mind, or get off your high horse. (No pun intended.)

I would suggest there's also a generational/classist thing going on here, because middle class white people, particularly in their 30s-50s, are horrified at the idea of acknowledging that certain gender differences are as real (or about as real) as anything else in human culture, but they want to have a "safe place" where they can play out their fantasies, while reserving the privilege of passing judgment on those of others. (I.e., it's okay for me to pretend to be a pretty princess who's rescued by Fabio, but if your medieval RPG doesn't routinely allow female knights, you're a sexist.)

Quote from: RPGPunditI think its a really great idea, if what it consists of is a woman writing from her experience about why she likes D&D as it is, and encouraging others to check it out.

It'll be a hardy rejoinder to those occasional forgish swine-efforts to say "We have to TOTALLY CHANGE gaming so that we can slightly increase our appeal to women, maybe! Because we think we know what they want, but we're not sure!"

If the book is of a woman saying "I dig D&D, its cool, check it out", that's just what we need.

RPGPundit

You mean like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZyfOPaPApw

Not having read the book, I definitely like the cover, ditto the pseudo-Cosmo cover and the text on the WOTC site. The visuals remind me of ads for nerve.com, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

"Is your Half-Orc full of himself?" Take note, Pundy. ROFL.

Seen the Storygames crowd freak out.  Mildly amused.  Don't care if there's any effect or not.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityNot having read the book, I definitely like the cover, ditto the pseudo-Cosmo cover and the text on the WOTC site. The visuals remind me of ads for nerve.com, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

"Is your Half-Orc full of himself?" Take note, Pundy. ROFL.

I liked the pseudo-Cosmo cover too.  

I'm not sure how anyone could call that sexist.  But then, I've never understood the whole political correctness thing.

Quote from: jgantsI liked the pseudo-Cosmo cover too.  

I'm not sure how anyone could call that sexist.  But then, I've never understood the whole political correctness thing.

Well, that's to your credit. You have to be an utter fucking tool to take offense in the first place. They'll never get around to admitting what they're really pissed about.


And here it is:

It's a D&D book. That's what is pissing them off.

She wrote a play called 'Blue Malls'. Cool play on words, had to laugh. After looking at her site, I think I'll have to check out the book.

Edit: http://shellymazzanoble.com/wordpress/?page_id=7

Quote from: Abyssal MawIt's a D&D book. That's what is pissing them off.

...

Er, based on what observation?  Or is this just an assumption to support that whole imaginary war thing?

!i!

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerSeen the Storygames crowd freak out.  Mildly amused.  Don't care if there's any effect or not.

Where did they freak out?

RPGPundit

So here's the punchline to what I posted earlier in the thread.....

 When I got to work today, a delivery had just arrived. My co-worker Noelle is already looking at one of the items from the shipment - the very book that we've been talking about.

 Her verdict ?  : "I like it!! " ...she continues "Its got recipes !! I can use at my next game!!"  She then leave , I make the purchase order and receive the shipment.  Try to make a spot for the book near our D&D section. (we only got 1 copy of it )

 Young couple in their early 20s come in shopping. Guy buys a miniature figure from the REAPER wall. I mention that we hot a bunch of new stuff today, and point out the book. She says "Where?!?"  
 I show them.....

 So yeah she bought it.  

 I sold one.

- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhere did they freak out?

I guess he's referring to this thread on Story Games:

Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress: A Girl's Guide to D&D (http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=2594&page=1)

That started months ago back in March when Jason Morningstar heard about and got an advanced reading copy (through librarian connections).  

Some people were concerned that they thought the press material sounded condescending, such as making D&D palatable to women by including recipes for D&D-themed snacks since women will naturally do the cooking.  (I'm describing here some reactions to the press release, not the actual book.)  Opinions on the actual book varied.  

QuoteOK, I got my hands on an advance reading copy.

It's laid out well and emulates other YA books in style, design, and tone. The ARC has no interior art, just place-holders, but it looks like it will have a fair amount, and an attractive cover. 130 or so pages, the published version will probably be a little longer. There's even a filled-out 4-page character sheet in the back.

It's got a sassy, sarcastic voice and splits evenly on teaching you "how to play" and providing context and encouragement. There are quizzes and diary entries. It's not evil but it is a marketing piece. Nowhere does it mention that other games exist, which is to be expected, and it is full of very traditional advice like this:

As Teddy describes it, roleplaying means "you listen to the Dungeon Master and decide what your character does based on his or her strengths, weaknesses, and personality. Metagaming is asking the Dungeon Master a question and watching his face to see if he's hiding anything.

...which is also to be expected. It alternates between respectful to the source material and irreverent (her character is obsessed with shopping and is always running off to pick up some Manolo Blahnik shoes, which would get old, fast in real life).

QuoteYup. I liked it. It was very, and I mean -very- tongue in cheek. The first few pages had me laughing like an idiot. It was completely and truly targeted at anyone that enjoys a good laugh. That's it. If at some point in your life, you happened to be a young girl, you'll find parts of it funnier than others will. That's it.

It reminded me of a small version of the Role Playing Gamer's Bible. Another very tongue in cheek 'game book' that I enjoy.

QuoteI just finished it and I can firmly say...meh. Lots of fluff around the basic 'how to make a D&D character'. It was very light and silly, and it might grab some folks, but they might have a very odd mix of old stereotypes and new ones. I can totally see the tongue-in-cheek factor, though.

Quote from: jhkimI guess he's referring to this thread on Story Games:

Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress: A Girl’s Guide to D&D (http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=2594&page=1)

That started months ago back in March when Jason Morningstar heard about and got an advanced reading copy (through librarian connections).  

Some people were concerned that they thought the press material sounded condescending, such as making D&D palatable to women by including recipes for D&D-themed snacks since women will naturally do the cooking.  (I'm describing here some reactions to the press release, not the actual book.)  Opinions on the actual book varied.

Thats a hidden thread. I'm actually referring to some LJ traffic that was fairly recent. But I bet there's some good stuff in that thread as well.

John Nephew wrote an excellent piece on gender equanimity in gaming and why it seems so difficult to achieve. It was on the same site where he posted his defense of the Arduin Grimoire as the best rpg product of all time. I can't find the site at all. It may have been a personal blog that he has taken down.

Does anyone have a link to that site?

Quote from: stu2000Does anyone have a link to that site?

No, but I'm sure as hell looking for it now!

And I'm sure as hell biting my nails as you do!

Meanwhile, that Confessions book: what it clearly has is lightness of tone. The cover, the text. Nothing heavy or heavy-handed about it. Now, that's a novelty. Nevermind WoW and all that, this is a revolution.

Hordes of NORMAL COSMO-READING WOMEN joining the hobby. The very idea. It's simply unimaginable.

Well, it's not going to happen. But it makes the whole project instantly appealing to me.

It doesn't have to be 'hordes' of women in the short-term to have a longlasting impact on the hobby.

i'll ask a borders co-worker to read it and give me her impressions.  she's a somewhat-gamer (plays WoW, buys rpg rulebooks, but doesn't play PnP, AFAIK).  she'll be a better barometer of "does it reach its intended audience" than i would be

BTW, I've google several permutations "john" "nephew" "arduin" and/or "grimoire" and come up with nothing.  I hit my own blog before finding the article we're looking for, which suggests to me that the piece in question is not available online anymore.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThats a hidden thread. I'm actually referring to some LJ traffic that was fairly recent. But I bet there's some good stuff in that thread as well.

 Ah yes, the continuing story of Storygames secret threads.  I guess we can't really ever confirm what they really think of this subject then. They say one thing in public, and another in private.

RPGPundit

Aha! They're conservative revolutionaries! Leo Strauss, esoteric vs. exoteric, "noble lies" etc.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhere did they freak out?

The LJ account of RPGNet's Peaceblossom, wherein they've gone on about how WOTC's completely fucked up and how sexist it is and blah-blah-blah about nothing.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerThe LJ account of RPGNet's Peaceblossom, wherein they've gone on about how WOTC's completely fucked up and how sexist it is and blah-blah-blah about nothing.

And do you have a link?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerThe LJ account of RPGNet's Peaceblossom, wherein they've gone on about how WOTC's completely fucked up and how sexist it is and blah-blah-blah about nothing.

Um?  WTF?  

So in your world, "the StoryGames crowd freak out" (your earlier claim) turns out to mean "RPGNet's Peaseblossom hated it".  That's really interesting language use.  

Peaseblossom's LJ entry doesn't have much explanation, but she explains herself in more depth on this IRIS Network thread (http://forums.theirisnetwork.org/viewtopic.php?t=659), saying:

QuoteI think it's horrible. I mean really, catastrophically bad. And stupid. Who exactly do they think they're marketing to? I cut my teeth on AD&D (2nd. ed.) when I was about 13, and this book and the website would've made me embarrassed to play. The Cosmo-reading skinny chick who pretended to be bad at math was my arch-nemesis (not anyone in particular, but exactly that image of what it means to be a young woman).

There may be some personal issues there, but it seems pretty clear that she doesn't hate it, say, because it's D&D.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd do you have a link?

RPGPundit

http://peaseblossom.livejournal.com/456492.html

I had time to look at it a bit yesterday (before I sold it)
 It seems alright....a lot better than buying a book with the word DUMMIES in the title.
 Her style is conversational and a tad auto-biographical...but it works.

 The main thing I got from what I could rad from it when I had time was her saying: "Hey, I',m having fun with this game and I wasn't sure I was going to when I started.....and here are some pointers to help other women have FUN playing D&D".

- Ed C.

Quote from: J Arcanehttp://peaseblossom.livejournal.com/456492.html

So, according to the people there, most women apparently do not have a sense of humor, never read Cosmo, and hate all things feminine.  :rolleyes:

To me, the whole book and website package look exactly like what it is - a book written by woman for women.

I suppose if the book was in block letter font and featured a chick wearing a flannel shirt, a really short haircut, and wearing a button that says "Math Club President" then it would have been OK?

Actually, now I have a new theory.  The mentality displayed here about hating popular/feminine females is perhaps the equivalent of the male gamer tendency to hate "jocks".  I wonder then, would male gamers express outrage over a book by an obvious athletic and popular guy talking about D&D?

Quote from: jgantsI wonder then, would male gamers express outrage over a book by an obvious athletic and popular guy talking about D&D?

Almost certainly.  See, for example, the Penny Arcade strips where they bemoan the number of fratboys that have gotten into online gaming for a parallel example.

Quote from: jgantsSo, according to the people there, most women apparently do not have a sense of humor, never read Cosmo, and hate all things feminine.  :rolleyes:

To me, the whole book and website package look exactly like what it is - a book written by woman for women.

Er, I don't agree with peaseblossom, but that isn't what she's saying.  She's saying that the Cosmo-like approach is likely be a turn-off to the girls most likely to play D&D.  Cosmo is popular with many women, but certainly not all.  It has circulation numbers of 2-3 million, I believe, which is very popular for a magazine, but it can't claim to represent the majority of women.  

Quote from: jgantsActually, now I have a new theory.  The mentality displayed here about hating popular/feminine females is perhaps the equivalent of the male gamer tendency to hate "jocks".  I wonder then, would male gamers express outrage over a book by an obvious athletic and popular guy talking about D&D?

So some athletic, popular guy who's only played D&D for two years is picked to write the official-sponsored book to market to male players.  He tries to make D&D seem cool to guys by comparing character stats to tracking football stats, and so forth.  And suppose that the book is the most prominent marketing of D&D to male players, possibly replacing things like ads in comic books and such.  

Yeah, I think a lot of players would be ticked off by it.

Quote from: jhkimUm?  WTF?  

So in your world, "the StoryGames crowd freak out" (your earlier claim) turns out to mean "RPGNet's Peaseblossom hated it".  That's really interesting language use.  

She's part of the crowd, and regulars post there.

QuotePeaseblossom's LJ entry doesn't have much explanation, but she explains herself in more depth on this IRIS Network thread (http://forums.theirisnetwork.org/viewtopic.php?t=659), saying:

There may be some personal issues there, but it seems pretty clear that she doesn't hate it, say, because it's D&D.

Different road, same end.

Quote from: jhkimShe's saying that the Cosmo-like approach is likely be a turn-off to the girls most likely to play D&D.

First of all, she (and the other commenters there) are saying more than that.  They are saying that the Cosmo-like approach is sexist.  My point - women do, indeed, like Cosmo and other feminine things.

Secondly, and this is thick with irony, saying that women who are thin and read Cosmo (read: girls in the popular clique) wouldn't like D&D is both missing the point of the book (an attempt to appeal to a different audience) and is a sexist statement itself.  

Quote from: jhkimSo some athletic, popular guy who's only played D&D for two years is picked to write the official-sponsored book to market to male players.  He tries to make D&D seem cool to guys by comparing character stats to tracking football stats, and so forth.  And suppose that the book is the most prominent marketing of D&D to male players, possibly replacing things like ads in comic books and such.  

Yeah, I think a lot of players would be ticked off by it.

And that would be just as silly, particularly if the approach was referred to as being sexist towards men (although that likely wouldn't happen, as the whole PC movement tends to pretend reverse discrimination doesn't exist).

Quote from: jhkimSo some athletic, popular guy who's only played D&D for two years is picked to write the official-sponsored book to market to male players.  He tries to make D&D seem cool to guys by comparing character stats to tracking football stats, and so forth.  And suppose that the book is the most prominent marketing of D&D to male players, possibly replacing things like ads in comic books and such.  

Yeah, I think a lot of players would be ticked off by it.

Have you ever seen Chris Perkins? He's kinda hot!

Seriously.(http://www.wizards.com/starwars/images/ChrisPerkins.jpg)

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerShe's part of the crowd, and regulars post there.

She's not only the person who took Storygames to task for TonyLB's ¡Muy Macho! thread, she's also the person who criticized Spirit of the Century for its treatment of women and minorities, and earlier, IIRC, she attacked Ron Edwards saying that "Role-playing with women at the table is a sensual experience [...] with sexual undertones."

Now, I have my thoughts (often blithely uninformed) about each of these "incidents", but I do not think it's fair to see the SG crowd as having a monolithic opinion in lockstep with peaseblossom's views.

Quote from: jgantsFirst of all, she (and the other commenters there) are saying more than that.  They are saying that the Cosmo-like approach is sexist.  My point - women do, indeed, like Cosmo and other feminine things.

It depends what you mean by that.  Saying that many women like Cosmo is not sexist, in my opinion.  Assuming that because a set of people are women, that they will like Cosmo, is sexist.  

Her claim is that she thinks they are doing the latter.  I don't offhand agree with that (I haven't read the book yet), but that's her basis.  A parallel would be trying to sell tech gadgets to more women by offering them in pink colors or with girly designs on them, assuming that women like pink, girly things.  However, here's an article from Wired -- "What Do Women Want?  Less Pink, More Tech (http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/news/2007/09/ladygeek) -- reporting on a survey that only 9% of women (specifically 750 randomly-selected British women age 24 to 45) would want such products.

Quote from: jhkimIt depends what you mean by that.  Saying that many women like Cosmo is not sexist, in my opinion.  Assuming that because a set of people are women, that they will like Cosmo, is sexist.  

Yes, I'm not saying that literally all women like Cosmo.  I'm saying that clearly a significant portion of women like Cosmo.  Otherwise, it wouldn't sell (I'm pretty sure men aren't the main customer base).

Quote from: jhkimIt depends what you mean by that.  Saying that many women like Cosmo is not sexist, in my opinion.  Assuming that because a set of people are women, that they will like Cosmo, is sexist.  

Her claim is that she thinks they are doing the latter.  I don't offhand agree with that (I haven't read the book yet), but that's her basis.  A parallel would be trying to sell tech gadgets to more women by offering them in pink colors or with girly designs on them, assuming that women like pink, girly things.  However, here's an article from Wired -- "What Do Women Want?  Less Pink, More Tech (http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/news/2007/09/ladygeek) -- reporting on a survey that only 9% of women (specifically 750 randomly-selected British women age 24 to 45) would want such products.

Uhm. I like pink. I have pink dice, a pink Nintendo Gameboy,... who doesn't like pink?

Quote from: Elliot WilenShe's not only the person who took Storygames to task for TonyLB's ¡Muy Macho! thread, she's also the person who criticized Spirit of the Century for its treatment of women and minorities, and earlier, IIRC, she attacked Ron Edwards saying that "Role-playing with women at the table is a sensual experience [...] with sexual undertones."

Now, I have my thoughts (often blithely uninformed) about each of these "incidents", but I do not think it's fair to see the SG crowd as having a monolithic opinion in lockstep with peaseblossom's views.

I would agree that it isn't by any means monolithic.

Quote from: Abyssal MawUhm. I like pink. I have pink dice, a pink Nintendo Gameboy,... who doesn't like pink?

Commies.  

Y'know, no one book, or ad campaign, or fat-free yogurt or hunky dude or cataclysm or anything is going to get women playing.  

It'll be a combination of things, more than I can think of.

So if this book is part of that combo, and some of the ladies who would pick up the book do pick up the book and they start playing (in other words, if the book reaches its target audience) -- victory.  

It isn't gonna work for, appeal to or get read by everyone with fallopian tubes.  I say, let it try its mojo where it can.

My wife and I were just talking about this.  She'd wanted to write a book on the same subject herself, because as a gamer herself, she often gets treated (by some people) as an oddity.

Not long ago, she saw this dude at the mall wearing this "AC/HP" shirt (you know, looks like an "AC/DC" logo).  She said to him, "Hey, cool shirt!"

And the guy, she says, looked at her funny and said, "Oh, your husband must game."

And she stared back at him and said, "I do."

Me, I don't get this.  What the fuck?  Am I just lucky that I've known a goodly amount of female gamers, and was always actually GLAD to share my hobby with them, regardless of sexual attraction?  Look, I'm just glad to have other nerds to play with, really.


I don't...I don't get it.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Y'know, no one book, or ad campaign, or fat-free yogurt or hunky dude or cataclysm or anything is going to get women playing.

Does that mean that they won't be swooning over the magic deer?

Doc R.,

 What you say is not strange at all.

 Southwest Ohio here has LOTS of women gamers.  I haven't been in an "all male gaming group" in over 14 years.

 Every group that I've either GMed or been a player in has had at 1 or 2 women as players.

 My campaign in 1991/92 was 5 women and 1 man as the playing group.

- Ed C.

Quote from: jrientsBTW, I've google several permutations "john" "nephew" "arduin" and/or "grimoire" and come up with nothing.  I hit my own blog before finding the article we're looking for, which suggests to me that the piece in question is not available online anymore.

My bad. It was Jonathon Tweet. I got my Atlas guys mixed upfor a second.
http://www.jonathantweet.com/jotgamemisogyny.html

The Arduin piece is on there.
http://www.jonathantweet.com/jotgamearduin.html

Great review.

Quote from: jhkimThere may be some personal issues there, but it seems pretty clear that she doesn't hate it, say, because it's D&D.

Perhaps you weren't interpreting the subtex purposefully enough.  Get your agenda straight, man!

By the way, I picked up the book tonight.  I've only had enough time to get about one chapter in, and I can see that the book is not for everyone.  But then, it clearly wasn't meant for everyone, so that's a fine thing.  It relies on that sort of snappy dialogue-with-the-audience prose common to one-person plays and segements of "This American Life".  It's fun.  I can see that the author was given the task of writing a book about RPGs and women, and decided to start with women, then work her way toward the gaming aspect.  Cue the arguments over parsing the difference between the phrases "I'm a woman who plays RPGs" and "I'm a roleplayer who's a woman".

The book is also very explicitly about D&D (they're the one's writing her advance and royalty checks, after all), but it's also clear that she's talking about "D&D" in the generic sense of RPGs in general.

I'll try to finish it this weekend and write up a proper review.

!i!

Quote from: John MorrowDoes that mean that they won't be swooning over the magic deer?

Yeah, now there's a hypocrisy! The Magic Deer is a wonderful step in the right direction that was supposed to bring women rushing to play RPGs, whereas this book is some kind of crypto-sexist evil that must be stopped.  :rolleyes:

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYeah, now there's a hypocrisy! The Magic Deer is a wonderful step in the right direction that was supposed to bring women rushing to play RPGs, whereas this book is some kind of crypto-sexist evil that must be stopped.  :rolleyes:

Yeah, hypocrits, the lot of them.  

Hell, one of those swine will say one thing -- and then another of them will say the complete opposite!  Almost like they're disagreeing!  They obviously are lying through their teeth and trying to disguise the fact that they all are exactly alike, to cover up their giant conspiracy.

It's all been downhill since they got the vote!

Story Gamers can vote?

Shit.Fuck. We're all dead!

Quote from: Caesar SlaadGoogle "women of the camarilla" calendar.

http://www.blackbookart.com/camwomen/index.html (http://www.blackbookart.com/camwomen/index.html)

Quote from: John MorrowDoes that mean that they won't be swooning over the magic deer?

Had Blue Rose got into the same distro networks as its Romantic Fantasy inspirations, that would have been another piece of the puzzle.  Idyll (http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?cPath=43_69_70&products_id=276) could maybe achieve a smaller piece of that goal if they had the budget to advertise at online centers for that genre.

Quote from: Zachary The Firsthttp://www.blackbookart.com/camwomen/index.html (http://www.blackbookart.com/camwomen/index.html)

:suicide:


Alright, I'm kidding. Only a little.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe book is also very explicitly about D&D (they're the one's writing her advance and royalty checks, after all), but it's also clear that she's talking about "D&D" in the generic sense of RPGs in general.

In fact, having read more last night, I'd cite this as the book's greatest weakness.  Seeing how it's targetted primarily at non-gamers who are largely unfamiliar with roleplaying games, by scrupulously avoiding mention of any other game the book perpetuates the popular myth that there's only one RPG: Dungeons & Dragons.  One game, one genre (gonzo high fantasy), and one style of play.  And seeing how the book was published by the company that produces that one game, and was written by one of their employees (that came as a bit of a surprise), it's easy to imagine that there's an agenda at play here.

Okay, but I need to just finish it and get on a proper review.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe book is also very explicitly about D&D (they're the one's writing her advance and royalty checks, after all), but it's also clear that she's talking about "D&D" in the generic sense of RPGs in general.

Maybe it's explicitly about D&D because that's what she plays.

Well, yes.  Half-way into the book, though, there's no evidence that she's explored any other games.  Did you even read my previous post?  Perhaps you're just being argumentative.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWell, yes.  Half-way into the book, though, there's no evidence that she's explored any other games.  Did you even read my previous post?  Perhaps you're just being argumentative.

!i!

Was she supposed to?  Are you implying that she mentions no other in order to perpetuate the myth?

And, yeah, I read your posts - and I'm still not sure WTF you're trying to say.

Quote from: James J SkachAnd, yeah, I read your posts - and I'm still not sure WTF you're trying to say.

You're notoriously slow on the uptake and quite purposefully thick, though, so I'll cut you some slack and spell it out for you.

On the outside, where the people who don't know anything about RPGs live, there's this common belief that there this one roleplaying game called "D&D".  Shelly discusses the most popular misconceptions about D&D in her book, but she misses this one.  So, when one of these people finds out you play RPGs, they say something like, "Oh!  You play Dungeons & Dragons."  "No," you reply, "Of course I'm familiar with it -- it's arguably the most popular and successful of the RPGs out there -- but I play a couple of other games like..."  "But it's just like Dungeons & Dragons," they interrupt.  You sigh and nod your head ruefully, because you realise that they really don't care for a full explanation.  It's all just "D&D".

So as I'm reading this book, I'm thinking that, while this is a great coup for D&D, it's a lost opportunity for the hobby as a whole.  I don't know if Shelly has looked into other RPGs or not, because if she has, she's either failed to mention them in her book, or any mention of them failed to pass her editors.  Regrettably, the fact that the book is paid for and published by the publishers of D&D, and that she happens to be one of their employees rather undermines the benefit of the doubt that there's no conflict of interest at work.

!i!

Doesn't really matter, Ian. D&D is the gateway drug. When I started playing, I (like 95% of the rest of us, I'm sure) thought it was the only RPG ever.

Quote from: beeberlink?  i don't remember it!  

not a WoD guy, so i guess i'm not surprised that i missed it

Ye gods... I remember that.
I was still in the Cam at the time and I still remember being taken to task for daring to suggest that, perhaps, we might put the most/more attractive women in the calendar since it was supposed to be a promotional/funding tool.

You're profoundly lucky a couple of lookers got in there at all, it wasn't like the Cam was actually that short of talent, it was just some people's priorities didn't appear to be making a glamour calendar so much as making some socio-political point.

*facepalm*

Why I ever thought I could make a positive difference in that nepotistic shower of Little Napoleons I don't know.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityDoesn't really matter, Ian. D&D is the gateway drug.

Very true (I started out on AD&D myself), but frustrating  none the less.

I was flipping through some of my older games last night, and in the forewords and introductions of a few of them I came across specific acknowledgements, by name, to games from different publishers.  It was a sort of collegiate spirit that assumed that A) credit where credit is due, and B) any word that bolstered the hobby as a whole helped the particular game.  It's been a while since that attitude held sway.

Anyway, with regard to Shelly's book, she makes a point of explaining what a "roleplaying game" is, she explains how D&D is a roleplaying game, but doesn't mention, even in passing, that it's not the only one, which seems like an easy and cogent point to make.  Even something as simple as, "There are a lot of different RPGs out there, but we're talking about D&D here" and never touching on the topic again would have been a good step.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaVery true (I started out on AD&D myself), but frustrating  none the less.

I can understand the publishers not wanting other games being mentioned, as this book has to be intended as a giant marketing scheme. Still, the concept that D&D is the only RPG out there is extremely prevalent and it would have been nice to see this inaccurate stereotype addressed.

I doubt I've ever seen a reference to a non-TSR RPG in any edition of D&D from that era.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI doubt I've ever seen a reference to a non-TSR RPG in any edition of D&D from that era.

true, but at least the ad&d dmg had references to boot hill, gamma world, and metamorphosis alpha, IIRC.  so there's acknowledgment of other rpg genres.  sounds like this new book doesn't do that, which is unfortunate.

notortious...:haw:  that's funny.

So your critique of this book is that it fails to mention that there are RPG's other than D&D?  Wow.  How insightful.  Regarding a book.  About D&D. Subtitled "A Girl's Guide to the Dungeons and Dragons game."

And I'm the one notoriously slow on the uptake...

I wonder if this critique would still exist if the book was "A girl's guide to playing Dogs," and only discussed that game.

Nah, me neither.

Quote from: James J Skachnotortious...

Around here?  Yeah.  Notorious for playing stupid to draw out an argument.  Like this post directly above.  Knock yourself out, tiger.

!i!

Quote from: James J SkachI wonder if this critique would still exist if the book was "A girl's guide to playing Dogs," and only discussed that game.

Nah, me neither.

I know you probably meant Dogs in the Vineyard there - but there is a subset of BDSM culture where some women like to play dogs/cats/pets with their collars, leashes, and doogie-style food and water bowls.....

- Ed C.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAround here?  Yeah.  Notorious for playing stupid to draw out an argument.  Like this post directly above.  Knock yourself out, tiger.

!i!

I wasn't aware of any such reputation on his part.  Was anyone else?

Quote from: J ArcaneI wasn't aware of any such reputation on his part.  Was anyone else?

too many jameses!  i can't keep them apart :shrug:

Kill 'em all.  Let Grodd sort 'em out.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaKill 'em all.  Let Grodd sort 'em out.

!i!

the gorilla?  that'll be some messy kills. . . . (no "explode into a shower of blood" smiley when i need it :D  )

Quote from: J ArcaneI wasn't aware of any such reputation on his part.  Was anyone else?

Awww...c'mon J - let me be notorious for something...pretty please.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNotorious for playing stupid to draw out an argument.

It's not to draw out an argument.  It's to make sure that I understand such utter rubbish as your position on this particular matter.  You're saying something so ridiculous on its face that I wanted to make sure it's what you meant - you might have just been lacking in expression for a valid idea instead of the tripe you supplied.

Before I use sarcasm to imply the sheer nonsense of your opinion, I want to make sure you're saying what I think you're saying - especially with something as patently ludicrous as your perspective on this.

At least you gave me the benfit of the doubt of playing stupid - I appreciate it.