Quick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).

The two big factors I think were Pathfinder stealing back (rightfully) a large portion of the player base, and the fact that 4E books were not very enjoyable to read, and caused decision anxiety for casual players. There are numerous other reason. Corporate hubris, the focus on selling miniatures, a desire to break away from the paradigm of 3.x, designer hubris, etc......

I don't have time atm to type up a more detailed response.

Quote from: blackstone on December 05, 2024, 10:57:34 AM

Quote from: Omega on December 04, 2024, 11:18:53 PMThe startup and then closing of the WOTC Stores was a double sore point as well. They used Games Workshop tactics to shut out any FLGS, treated staff poorly, became increasingly more in-house only and finally shut down.

Back in 2001 when I was living in the Puget Sound area (Bremerton), there was a WoTC store at a mall not too far from where I lived.

I bought my Hackmaster 4th edition books from that store.

The irony: going to their store loaded with 3e stuff, which I was NOT a fan of, and discovered HM4E. Arguably the original OSR game before the OSR was a thing.

Same here. For a while they had a shelf with stuff from other companies. Black book Traveler was one recall. But over time that section got smaller and smaller. The store Games Workshop took over the change was very abrupt. One week there was a whole isle dedicated to RPGs and minis wargames. The next its all gone. GW has a requirement that you can only carry GW product if you sign on. Was pretty wretched back then.

Quote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).

I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).

I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.

It's gaslighting all the way down. Hate what you love. You must upgrade to the new hotness.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).

I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.

Greetings!

Yeah, I remember all of those arrogant, smug, gaslighting morons. I KNEW that 4E was absolutely embracing WoW concepts, from front to back, as much as possible.

I had been playing WoW for years, had been a guild officer, and a guild leader. I knew all about WoW, and the fact that these idiots would sit there and try and tell me that 4E was not trying to be WoW, and wasn't embracing video game elements in a HUGE way--just made me laugh at them in contempt. I just crushed them and their petty arguments as a pathetic kind of delusion.

Anyone that has played WoW for any length of time can see WoW elements all over the place with 4E.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

  Well, since I've never touched WoW, Warcraft, or any of the Blizzard franchises, it's no wonder I didn't see it. From my point of view, the question was not "was it mimicking WoW?" but "was it a good game?" The conclusion I reached was "good (if undercooked) game, good RPG for tactical-combat heavy campaigns, bad D&D."

As a tabletop fighting game, 4E was fairly tight and well put together. For campaign D&D it was a turd.Far more than any individual video-gamey elements was overall focus of THE ENCOUNTER as the sole area of concern for the game. I dubbed this the encountardization of D&D. This concept started in 3E and really went full retard in 4E, and is still present in 5E. Gone were the mighty magics of old. All spells and abilities were restricted to affecting only the encounter. No more charming a low intelligence opponent for weeks on end. Such powers were limited to encounter use, which helped make ongoing campaigns into little more than loosely strung together encounters. That combined with the time consuming slog of creating custom NPCs and monsters (without software) that it just wasn't worth using for campaign play.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).

I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.

It actually was not. It was more board-gamey and was just laden with MMO-like jargon and dumbed down to the point it was not D&D at all.

Board gamers love 4e.

Quote from: S'mon on December 06, 2024, 09:23:59 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 05, 2024, 08:08:47 PMI think some of the problem with a culture war was evident when 4E came out. There was a significant part of WotC advertising that was anti-old school and mocked long term players of the game.

It (4e marketing pissing on old editions) wasn't related to the Culture War. They spent as much or more time mocking 3e as mocking pre-3e. James Wyatt's "D&D is about killing horrible monsters! Not traipsing through Fairy Rings talking with the Little People!" would get him a round of applause from the Babylon Bee these days.

The Culture War itself was barely a thing in 2008. The Left had been pissing on the Right since around 1990, but the Right never fought back. I remember how surprised I was the first time I ever saw a Right-wing pundit, Ann Coulter, actually being mean to the Left. That would have been I think in the 2008 election campaign. Nowadays the Culture War is actually a war, but until the Left overstepped with Transmania, it was more of a Culture Holodomor.

I meant culture war as a type of disagreement and not Culture War as in the still ongoing Conservative vs Liberal conflict in Western countries.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).

I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.

The amusing part for me is that I heard the constant comparisons to WoW, then in 2009 I actually played WoW and felt it was nothing like 4e beyond the superfluous idea of "abilities" and "class roles".

Personally I enjoyed 4e, it had engaging combat and interesting and fun abilities. The problem was it did not feel like D&D, but ironically it as much closer to to the D&D-as-wargame roots than anything which came before or after it.

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 08, 2024, 07:54:19 AMPersonally I enjoyed 4e, it had engaging combat and interesting and fun abilities. The problem was it did not feel like D&D, but ironically it as much closer to to the D&D-as-wargame roots than anything which came before or after it.

  But as Exploderwizard points out, it's much more aligned to the tactical side of wargaming than the long-term campaign mode, and over the past 15+ years, much of the OSR has been moving back to the LTC mode and other styles (sandbox, open table, the Jeffrogaxian Fremen BrOSR) that 4E does not support well at all. I appreciate a lot of what 4E did in the abstract, but as part of the D&D tradition, especially when many people were trying to revisit the roots of that tradition, it fell short. This is one of the reasons I say that 4E zigged where the market zagged, as one of the many reasons for its derailment.

Pathfinder 2e is pretty much taking the ideas of 4th edition that were good (multiple tight deliberate abilities for PCs with an action economy spelled out. Extremely tight math, balanced encounters) and marrying it to the D&D model (nothing is a 'daily' or 'encounter' focus on long term campaigns and what PCs do outside of just killing shit.)

I remember that was the biggest disconnect for my table at the time with 4th edition. The fact the fighter and thief had "Powers" that could only be used in encounters or once a day. Like they had magic powers of their own that needed to recharge despite being "Martial" characters.

The combat was fun though, even if it took forever. 13th age was an evolution of 4th edition and ended up introducing something called the "Fray Die" which added an increase in damage to everyone's attacks the longer a fight went on. It helped to speed things up from what I understand.

Greetings!

I immediately despised 4E, and I am glad that it choked and died a horrible death. 4E was an absolute disaster for D&D and a terrible failure for WOTC across the board. It damned near ruined the entire franchise of D&D.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I predicted exactly what the loss would be when 4e came out. That's part of why I was hired immediately for 5e, because 4e was strongly influenced by Forge Theory of what a "gamist" game should be like, and I was the best-known ideological opposite to the Forge, whose theory proved a massive failure. My ideas proved to be a massive success.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:09:21 AMI predicted exactly what the loss would be when 4e came out. That's part of why I was hired immediately for 5e, because 4e was strongly influenced by Forge Theory of what a "gamist" game should be like, and I was the best-known ideological opposite to the Forge, whose theory proved a massive failure. My ideas proved to be a massive success.

Theres still morons trying to push Forge/GNS sphiel.