Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PMI know it's changed much since I worked there, but many, many long term employees from the mid-90's still work there. Sure, they have to keep silent to survive long term in the toxic woke kultur, they are not neo-Marxist.

    I think most people when they talk about "WotC" are talking about the management and/or lead D&D design staff. But the writing for this was on the wall when WotC purchased TSR, if John Tynes' history of the company in Salon was accurate.

    (I've only kept in touch with one former WotC employee, formerly of TSR, but he was always a maverick. )

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 04, 2024, 04:44:24 PM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PMI know it's changed much since I worked there, but many, many long term employees from the mid-90's still work there. Sure, they have to keep silent to survive long term in the toxic woke kultur, they are not neo-Marxist.

    I think most people when they talk about "WotC" are talking about the management and/or lead D&D design staff. But the writing for this was on the wall when WotC purchased TSR, if John Tynes' history of the company in Salon was accurate.

    (I've only kept in touch with one former WotC employee, formerly of TSR, but he was always a maverick. )

Nah those wild days that Tyne wrote about were over by the time of the Hasbro buy out. Whatever might have remained left with the massive OCT 2000 layoffs. WotC went from 1700+ employees, to around 400 that day. Just a normal corporation. Hasbro was mostly hands off back then. Not like now where it's the subsidiary propping up the holding conglomerate.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 04, 2024, 12:01:36 PMI'd like to hear more about that. I gave 2024 D&D a brief glance and didn't particularly like it. The only thing I like is that there is a free version. My impressions are here:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2024/09/d-2024-is-free.html

It really comes down to first off if you *Like* 5th edition's version of Dungeons and Dragons. If one doesn't, then nothing in 2024 is going to change their mind.

Now with that out of the way, assuming one does like 5th edition, I'll give the reasons why I think it's an improvement.

Martials ended up getting a lot of great buffs overall to bring them more in par with casters. Weapon Masteries are awesome, and with a change in rules that you can draw or stow a weapon during an attack action, Martials can now chain combos together to pull off some really cool stuff.

A lot of Spells that were broken were brought into line, and spell casting rules were made more clear for preventing abuse or situations like Silvery Barbs being the best spell ever. Casters are still powerful ((Unlike in Pathfinder 2e where they were over-nerfed)) but they just aren't far and away better in every way than their martial companions. A smart player will be able to maximize a spellcaster of course, but the martials won't end up feeling superfulous anymore.

Bringing everyone's Subclass into level 3 brings some nice uniformity to the classes as a whole and greater balance among them. Warlocks and Clerics don't pick their Patron/Domain until level 3 now instead of level 1... and some people have complained about this, but overall as many have pointed out... Level 1 and 2 are sort of "Tutorial levels" for 5th edition... and making it so everyone gets their subclass at level 3 means the classes and subclasses as a whole are better balanced against one another.

It's been said that 2024 raises the "Power level" of characters... but I think that's not the right way to say it... It's more that, nobody sucks anymore. Where as in 5th edition 2014 there were clear winners and losers... in 2024 it's more every class and subclass is effective and PCs are less punished for playing a concept they think is cool instead of perfectly optimizing...

You have things like Paladin smite being completely changed which some people would think is a "nerf" but really it prevents the Paladin from Novaing the BBEG in one round, killing it by blowing all their spells at once, and preventing anyone else from even being able to particpate in the combat.

Cleric healing has been increased so that Healing in combat is actually more viable now, which in turn has led to the rework of the CR system in the DMG. The reworked CR system actually makes things challenging and harder for players ((A good thing since one of 2014's biggest complaints is how the CR system is borked)) and all the previews from the new MM point to Monsters being *STRONGER* which will further make the DM's job easier at making challenging encounters the PCs can't just steamrole.

So overall I say... if you *LIKE* 5th edition... 2024 is the better version of it. It really is the 3.5 to 3rd edition for well..5th edition.

But as I said, if you never liked 5th edition.... 2024 isn't gonna change your mind. It's a refinement, not a revolution.

Quote from: Orphan81 on December 04, 2024, 06:57:25 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 04, 2024, 12:01:36 PMI'd like to hear more about that. I gave 2024 D&D a brief glance and didn't particularly like it. The only thing I like is that there is a free version. My impressions are here:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2024/09/d-2024-is-free.html

It really comes down to first off if you *Like* 5th edition's version of Dungeons and Dragons. If one doesn't, then nothing in 2024 is going to change their mind.

Now with that out of the way, assuming one does like 5th edition, I'll give the reasons why I think it's an improvement.

Martials ended up getting a lot of great buffs overall to bring them more in par with casters. Weapon Masteries are awesome, and with a change in rules that you can draw or stow a weapon during an attack action, Martials can now chain combos together to pull off some really cool stuff.

A lot of Spells that were broken were brought into line, and spell casting rules were made more clear for preventing abuse or situations like Silvery Barbs being the best spell ever. Casters are still powerful ((Unlike in Pathfinder 2e where they were over-nerfed)) but they just aren't far and away better in every way than their martial companions. A smart player will be able to maximize a spellcaster of course, but the martials won't end up feeling superfulous anymore.

Bringing everyone's Subclass into level 3 brings some nice uniformity to the classes as a whole and greater balance among them. Warlocks and Clerics don't pick their Patron/Domain until level 3 now instead of level 1... and some people have complained about this, but overall as many have pointed out... Level 1 and 2 are sort of "Tutorial levels" for 5th edition... and making it so everyone gets their subclass at level 3 means the classes and subclasses as a whole are better balanced against one another.

It's been said that 2024 raises the "Power level" of characters... but I think that's not the right way to say it... It's more that, nobody sucks anymore. Where as in 5th edition 2014 there were clear winners and losers... in 2024 it's more every class and subclass is effective and PCs are less punished for playing a concept they think is cool instead of perfectly optimizing...

You have things like Paladin smite being completely changed which some people would think is a "nerf" but really it prevents the Paladin from Novaing the BBEG in one round, killing it by blowing all their spells at once, and preventing anyone else from even being able to particpate in the combat.

Cleric healing has been increased so that Healing in combat is actually more viable now, which in turn has led to the rework of the CR system in the DMG. The reworked CR system actually makes things challenging and harder for players ((A good thing since one of 2014's biggest complaints is how the CR system is borked)) and all the previews from the new MM point to Monsters being *STRONGER* which will further make the DM's job easier at making challenging encounters the PCs can't just steamrole.

So overall I say... if you *LIKE* 5th edition... 2024 is the better version of it. It really is the 3.5 to 3rd edition for well..5th edition.

But as I said, if you never liked 5th edition.... 2024 isn't gonna change your mind. It's a refinement, not a revolution.

I love Mearls era 5E, but the game starting taking a dive when he was ousted and Crawford took over. Almost everything since Tasha's has been hot woke garbage.

Then again, I loved 3.0 and disliked 3.5, so I'm the outlier.

I freely admit that I don't have deep mechanical problems with 5E--but I haven't engaged with it enough to form more than a cursory judgement. My issues remain setting-based and cultural, both on the corporate and audience side.

Also, with numerous previous editions, variants, etc., I don't see a compelling need to invest in 5E, especially since I barely play anyway.

Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 07:18:43 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on December 04, 2024, 06:57:25 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 04, 2024, 12:01:36 PMI'd like to hear more about that. I gave 2024 D&D a brief glance and didn't particularly like it. The only thing I like is that there is a free version. My impressions are here:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2024/09/d-2024-is-free.html

It really comes down to first off if you *Like* 5th edition's version of Dungeons and Dragons. If one doesn't, then nothing in 2024 is going to change their mind.

Now with that out of the way, assuming one does like 5th edition, I'll give the reasons why I think it's an improvement.

Martials ended up getting a lot of great buffs overall to bring them more in par with casters. Weapon Masteries are awesome, and with a change in rules that you can draw or stow a weapon during an attack action, Martials can now chain combos together to pull off some really cool stuff.

A lot of Spells that were broken were brought into line, and spell casting rules were made more clear for preventing abuse or situations like Silvery Barbs being the best spell ever. Casters are still powerful ((Unlike in Pathfinder 2e where they were over-nerfed)) but they just aren't far and away better in every way than their martial companions. A smart player will be able to maximize a spellcaster of course, but the martials won't end up feeling superfulous anymore.

Bringing everyone's Subclass into level 3 brings some nice uniformity to the classes as a whole and greater balance among them. Warlocks and Clerics don't pick their Patron/Domain until level 3 now instead of level 1... and some people have complained about this, but overall as many have pointed out... Level 1 and 2 are sort of "Tutorial levels" for 5th edition... and making it so everyone gets their subclass at level 3 means the classes and subclasses as a whole are better balanced against one another.

It's been said that 2024 raises the "Power level" of characters... but I think that's not the right way to say it... It's more that, nobody sucks anymore. Where as in 5th edition 2014 there were clear winners and losers... in 2024 it's more every class and subclass is effective and PCs are less punished for playing a concept they think is cool instead of perfectly optimizing...

You have things like Paladin smite being completely changed which some people would think is a "nerf" but really it prevents the Paladin from Novaing the BBEG in one round, killing it by blowing all their spells at once, and preventing anyone else from even being able to particpate in the combat.

Cleric healing has been increased so that Healing in combat is actually more viable now, which in turn has led to the rework of the CR system in the DMG. The reworked CR system actually makes things challenging and harder for players ((A good thing since one of 2014's biggest complaints is how the CR system is borked)) and all the previews from the new MM point to Monsters being *STRONGER* which will further make the DM's job easier at making challenging encounters the PCs can't just steamrole.

So overall I say... if you *LIKE* 5th edition... 2024 is the better version of it. It really is the 3.5 to 3rd edition for well..5th edition.

But as I said, if you never liked 5th edition.... 2024 isn't gonna change your mind. It's a refinement, not a revolution.

I love Mearls era 5E, but the game starting taking a dive when he was ousted and Crawford took over. Almost everything since Tasha's has been hot woke garbage.

Then again, I loved 3.0 and disliked 3.5, so I'm the outlier.

You're not alone.

Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 04, 2024, 09:37:59 AM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 03, 2024, 09:19:15 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.

Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.

The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.

This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.

But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.

Wow Pundit, you're approaching SHARK territory proclaiming that WotC is full of communist. Idiots, assholes, arrogant bastards sure, but I doubt there are more than a handful that are actually Marxist.

Depends on what you mean by "actually Marxist". I'm using the broad term of post-modern fashionable neo-marxism. And in that context, virtually everyone working at WotC below the level of Executive is definitely a Marxist.

I know it's changed much since I worked there, but many, many long term employees from the mid-90's still work there. Sure, they have to keep silent to survive long term in the toxic woke kultur, they are not neo-Marxist.

The young ones, under 40. That's a different story.

Have you checked lately? Because as far as I can see after the last big purge, almost all of the TSR people are gone.

Certainly, no one pretending to be a "game designer" in WotC is from the old guard.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 04, 2024, 03:23:35 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.

Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.

The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.

This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.

But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.

It's the best selling version of the game ever (your personal opinion of that stat notwithstanding). I assure you, the extreme overwhelming majority of players are not racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries. Just a whole lot of normal people of all ages.

If they were normal, they will be just as furious at the shit-smearing attack on Gary Gygax and on the original game.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 04, 2024, 09:17:36 PM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 04, 2024, 09:37:59 AM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 03, 2024, 09:19:15 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.

Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.

The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.

This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.

But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.

Wow Pundit, you're approaching SHARK territory proclaiming that WotC is full of communist. Idiots, assholes, arrogant bastards sure, but I doubt there are more than a handful that are actually Marxist.

Depends on what you mean by "actually Marxist". I'm using the broad term of post-modern fashionable neo-marxism. And in that context, virtually everyone working at WotC below the level of Executive is definitely a Marxist.

I know it's changed much since I worked there, but many, many long term employees from the mid-90's still work there. Sure, they have to keep silent to survive long term in the toxic woke kultur, they are not neo-Marxist.

The young ones, under 40. That's a different story.

Have you checked lately? Because as far as I can see after the last big purge, almost all of the TSR people are gone.

Certainly, no one pretending to be a "game designer" in WotC is from the old guard.

The only people from TSR after about 2003 were Kim Mohan, Steve Winter, Rich Baker, Chris Perkins, and Bill Slaviseck. With the exception of Perkins they have all been gone for over a decade. Once the magazines were split off into Paizo there really wasn't anyone left from TSR. It's going on a full 2 decades now. I don't think recent events have anything to do with the lack of TSR alumni.

Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 05:05:31 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 04, 2024, 04:44:24 PM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PMI know it's changed much since I worked there, but many, many long term employees from the mid-90's still work there. Sure, they have to keep silent to survive long term in the toxic woke kultur, they are not neo-Marxist.

    I think most people when they talk about "WotC" are talking about the management and/or lead D&D design staff. But the writing for this was on the wall when WotC purchased TSR, if John Tynes' history of the company in Salon was accurate.

    (I've only kept in touch with one former WotC employee, formerly of TSR, but he was always a maverick. )

Nah those wild days that Tyne wrote about were over by the time of the Hasbro buy out. Whatever might have remained left with the massive OCT 2000 layoffs. WotC went from 1700+ employees, to around 400 that day. Just a normal corporation. Hasbro was mostly hands off back then. Not like now where it's the subsidiary propping up the holding conglomerate.

Pretty much what I was told by a few friends who used to work for wotc as well.

That and the numerous mistakes Hasbro made handing board game projects off to wotc. Who would then nigh invariably botch it.

The startup and then closing of the WOTC Stores was a double sore point as well. They used Games Workshop tactics to shut out any FLGS, treated staff poorly, became increasingly more in-house only and finally shut down.

Perkins stepping down as a lead is probably a sign they'll change things more.

The 2013-2015 period Acquisitions are by far my favorite. They really used to love the game back then and it showed. But apparently Hasbro cares more about investors than the hobby so it's not surprising how things turned out.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 04, 2024, 03:23:35 PMIt's the best selling version of the game ever (your personal opinion of that stat notwithstanding). I assure you, the extreme overwhelming majority of players are not racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries. Just a whole lot of normal people of all ages.

That may be true, but it doesn't excuse WoTC's hubris towards the normal people.

Quote from: Omega on December 04, 2024, 11:18:53 PMThe startup and then closing of the WOTC Stores was a double sore point as well. They used Games Workshop tactics to shut out any FLGS, treated staff poorly, became increasingly more in-house only and finally shut down.

Back in 2001 when I was living in the Puget Sound area (Bremerton), there was a WoTC store at a mall not too far from where I lived.

I bought my Hackmaster 4th edition books from that store.

The irony: going to their store loaded with 3e stuff, which I was NOT a fan of, and discovered HM4E. Arguably the original OSR game before the OSR was a thing.

Quote from: blackstone on December 05, 2024, 10:57:34 AM

Quote from: Omega on December 04, 2024, 11:18:53 PMThe startup and then closing of the WOTC Stores was a double sore point as well. They used Games Workshop tactics to shut out any FLGS, treated staff poorly, became increasingly more in-house only and finally shut down.

Back in 2001 when I was living in the Puget Sound area (Bremerton), there was a WoTC store at a mall not too far from where I lived.

I bought my Hackmaster 4th edition books from that store.

The irony: going to their store loaded with 3e stuff, which I was NOT a fan of, and discovered HM4E. Arguably the original OSR game before the OSR was a thing.

Hackmaster 4E only existed because Kenner is a lawyer & knew WotC fucked up big time with the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM. He was able to secure use of AD&D with the serial #'s files off, and was able to label all Kalamar products as Dungeons & Dragons.

Pretty bad ass power move imho.

Quote from: M2A0 on December 05, 2024, 12:29:28 PMHackmaster 4E only existed because Kenner is a lawyer & knew WotC fucked up big time with the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM. He was able to secure use of AD&D with the serial #'s files off, and was able to label all Kalamar products as Dungeons & Dragons.

Pretty bad ass power move imho.

Yep. I was pretty tight with Dave, Jolly, Brian, and the rest of the gang when HM 4e was a thing. I was DMing HM at GenCon and Origins for them, helping out the booth a couple of times. Even was head GM for the Origins Hackmaster tournament one year...

right up until Dave decided to go his own way and redesign Hackmaster, getting away from the core AD&D game mechanic.

That drove A LOT of people away. Fanbase practically dried up.

I understand why he had to get out from under WoTC's thumb when it came to the license they had. WoTC kept ratcheting up the requirements to meet the parody clause to where it was almost impossible to meet. Believe me, Dave, Jolly, and I had many a drunken conversation about it at Origins.

I wish they went more of a OSRIC route IMO. It was the AD&D/D&D mechanic we loved about the game that attracted us to it...Along with sticking it to WoTC.

Oh well. It's all in the past now.